[donquixote]

Hi,

I recently sent my VW Vento (Diesel TDSI 2012 model) via roadside assistance towing facility to Elite motors, Bangalore. Issue was that suddenly while driving the car started jerky movement and lost pickup with the coil shaped warning yellow light on the dashboard blinking. I was near my house so was able to drive to my apartment underground parking and was also able to take it out to the tow truck when it arrived.

Two days after my car was delivered to Elite service centre I got a call from the servicing manager that they are taking time to diagnose the problem because it looks like a serious issue which may cost very high to repair. After another day he called and said that indeed it was a serious issue (sorry forgot the exact terms he used which is written down on paper but have misplaced) and he can't even say how much it will cost to repair because after they fix one issue, which he said may cost 3.1 Lakh Rs, it is quite possible that they find another issue which may again cost say 50KRs after which again they may require added cost to they solve all issues. In effect he said it will cost me more than the market price of the car to repair it. These words sounded exactly like what my friend told me he had heard about his Polo which was flooded in monsoons. It was a different VW service centre.

I asked the manager what might cause such a severe problem especially when 10 years is not such a long time for a car. I do acknowledge that I use my car very sparingly having clocked only 29,000 Kms in the last 10 years. He said that for diesel cars (unlike petrol cars) if we don't use them at least once a week they tend to go bad like this. I also admit that I always send my car for regular servicing via pickup facility (not drive there in person) and only interact with service person over phone (always to Apple motors, KR Puram from where I had bought the car) so it had been kind of not a hands on approach. The last time that Apple motors service person told me that there were some issues developing which would require dismantling of the entire engine train and steering column but he said it would cost a lot so he was not doing it this time but expected that it'll likely need to be taken up next time.

Back to present - today the Elite motors service manager said he'd call me from another number and then suddenly asked me what would be the final price I will take for it... he reasoned out that I'll be paying for service more than what I'd get if I sold the car. It was a bit sudden and sounded like a well rehearsed routine. I told him I had expected to only pay for servicing and not thought about selling. He told me he's telling me this in my own interest. He also said that if the car was in running condition it would only fetch me 3.5-4 Lakh Rs but because of this repair they may not pay anything!

Questions:
1. Now I don't know if this is a real issue or a scam. Can't help feel it is the latter but want to ask her if I'm being over-cynical here?

2. Is it true that diesel cars (more so than petrol) go bad this much if not used frequently?

3. I've heard friends say that one can take to a non authorized service centre which will fix the issues at a fraction of the authorized service centre cost. Any good references around Koramangala in Bangalore where I can take a 2nd opinion?

4. What are the chances that the authorized service centres where I've been giving my car for repair themselves introduce or misreport the problems and overcharge (esp the current one who has something to gain if I agree to sell for peanuts).

Thanks in advance for any valuable inputs.

[ajmat]

It s probably a scam

1: Scare you with a high estimate

2: Offer you a way out with a lower market price

3: Repair for a song and resell

The fact that he is calling from an unknown phone sounds fishy. Have they given a written estimate? If they cannot state and commit things officially, it sounds fishy. Pay whatever fee and take it out

Issue was that suddenly while driving the car started jerky movement and lost pickup with the coil shaped warning yellow light on the dashboard blinking. I was near my house so was able to drive to my apartment underground parking and was also able to take it out to the tow truck when it arrived.

Sounds like a DPF failure, same thing happened with my Jetta.

[ishlinea7260]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Sounds like a DPF failure, same thing happened with my Jetta.

How much did it cost to repair/replace?

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by donquixote

Hi,

I recently sent my VW Vento (Diesel TDSI 2012 model) via roadside assistance towing facility to Elite motors, Bangalore. Issue was that suddenly while driving the car started jerky movement and lost pickup with the coil shaped warning yellow light on the dashboard blinking. I was near my house so was able to drive to my apartment underground parking and was also able to take it out to the tow truck when it arrived.

I'm assuming you have the 1.6 diesel. If so, this might be a injector failure issue - the symptoms are all indicative of that and Vento diesels from 2010-2012 came with those faulty injectors. The injectors would fail over time, especially those that didn't see consistent usage. There was an advisory for recall too back in 2015-16 (google it - you'll get enough results of failed injectors within the forum, including my own ownership thread).

Cost wise each injector would cost you around 22k - 25k if you replace it. Some Vento owners got their injector repaired too at a fraction of that cost: but not a lot of them were able to do so. Net cost wouldn't go beyond 1L-1.1L for all 4 injectors to be replaced.

The above experience of yours is definitely a scam. Get your car out and take it to a different VW DEALER or an FNG who has good experience of handling VAG cars.

[jinojohnt]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Net cost wouldn't go beyond 1L-1.1L for all 4 injectors to be replaced.

More than a lakh to replace 4 injectors? That means if you want to buy individual parts of the whole car, you will need to spend more than 50 Lakhs
It's high time the Govt limits the spare part price based on car price.

[Jeroen]

I can’t really comment on the cost. But I am familiar with the problems of the fuel injectors on these cars.

The notion that diesel cars suffer from limited use compared to petrol cars is a myth I believe. Even at 2900 km/year your car gets regular use.

There is one thing that is detrimental to a car, which is lots of short rides. Whether it is petrol or diesel, any engine not operating at normal operating temperature is having some additional wear. Modern diesels warm up slower than your typical petrol engine, so it is a bit worse.

When looking at mileage, it is more relevant to get a feeling for how the car/engine has been used than the absolute mileage. It makes a big difference if a car gets used every day for a 3-4 km ride, or once a week for 40 km ride. The latter is likely to come out the better, I.e. less wear. That is why high mileage cars , say anything over 40-60k a year tend to be safe buys, as it is likely to have been a lot of long distance driving. Even at 200k kilometers you would be fine, most likely.

Jeroen

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by donquixote

Hi,


Questions:
1. Now I don't know if this is a real issue or a scam. Can't help feel it is the latter but want to ask her if I'm being over-cynical here?

2. Is it true that diesel cars (more so than petrol) go bad this much if not used frequently?

3. I've heard friends say that one can take to a non authorized service centre which will fix the issues at a fraction of the authorized service centre cost. Any good references around Koramangala in Bangalore where I can take a 2nd opinion?

4. What are the chances that the authorized service centres where I've been giving my car for repair themselves introduce or misreport the problems and overcharge (esp the current one who has something to gain if I agree to sell for peanuts).

Thanks in advance for any valuable inputs.

1. I am 99% certain that this is a scam. Used cars with low kms and proper service history are very hard to find now, especially VAG diesels so I'm guessing they are planning on flipping it for a high price.


2. Any car which spends long periods of time lying unused is prone to develop some issues. Most of the time, they aren't too serious as long as the car has been serviced regularly and especially if the car itself isn't a complicated gadget laden luxury car. (I backed out of a mouth watering deal for a volvo xc90 with barely 30k kms because I found out the car was lying unused and not serviced for several years)

3. They are correct. Get the car back and either send it to another VAG service center for a second opinion of what exactly is wrong or send it to a reputed 3rd party garage that is frequented by a lot of old timers. Do not mention what the other service center said at all.

4. Pretty big. There have been lots of cases where people send their car in for service and they return it after just a wash and some minor things without even changing the oil. Now being billed for parts that aren't actually changed is less common so what they normally do is suggest replacement of parts that are perfectly fine and then resell your original parts later. Hence why some dealerships are now against dash cams. Happened to me twice at MCP Hyundai in Vellangallur. Last I heard, many people working there were fired so maybe there is karma after all.

[AYP]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Sounds like a DPF failure, same thing happened with my Jetta.

DPF? Did the VW group BS4 diesels come equipped with a diesel particulate filter(DPF) or does DPF in this case stand for something else?

[Turbohead]

The 1.6 TDI in the Vento does not have DPF. Sounds like a fuel injector issue which usually fails 1-2 pieces at a time.

This is a scam in the making! It's best to avoid VW SC after the warranty gets over. There are reports of good after market service centres in the forum itself and I'd request you to consider them.

[--gKrish--]

The coil sign blinking and jerking is 99% due to injector failure.

VW ASS might suggest replacing all 4 of them in one go. But in my honest opinion, get the faulty one/s repaired/replaced and leave the rest as is (considering the less usage, and the fact that they cost around 23k per piece despite their questionable quality). Newer ventos with 4x your mileage is also facing multiple injector failures.

Less usage and short driving cycles do increase the wear on the engine, but it is not the primary cause of premature failure of continental injectors.

They don't always work well with our fuel and quality is consistently (across brands) inconsistent. Bosch CRDI units are way better and even some of the older DENSOs. They do not see as many failures in similar usage cycles on the same fuel.

Also, Please get your car fixed elsewhere. They are fleecing for sure.

[corvus corax]

They have pathetic rating in google and enough horror stories in our forum. Like others said, pull your car out from there and look somewhere else.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by donquixote

Hi,which he said may cost 3.1 Lakh Rs, it is quite possible that they find another issue which may again cost say 50KRs after which again they may require added cost to they solve all issues. In effect he said it will cost me more than the market price of the car to repair it. These words sounded exactly like what my friend told me he had heard about his Polo which was flooded in monsoons. It was a different VW service centre.

I think you should also ask the "Manager" how much it will cost to get back the car after his estimate, in another popular thread they asked for a shade under 50K ask parking and estimation charges that's literally gone viral on social media: May be all dealerships in Bengaluru are like: "treat all cars as flood ravaged and make a killing or scare them off"... as always VW India will sleep on whatever you throw at them...

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by AYP

DPF? Did the VW group BS4 diesels come equipped with a diesel particulate filter(DPF) or does DPF in this case stand for something else?

My bad - it was the EGR - something with 3 letters!!!!

Originally Posted by --gKrish--

The coil sign blinking and jerking is 99% due to injector failure.

It could be that also

Need I say more

Also, Please get your car fixed elsewhere. They are fleecing for sure.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ighlight=Elite (VW Elite / Downtown Bangalore dupe a customer over the warranty)
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...light=Downtown

[Racer911]

First thing, immediately run to the service centre, without calling them, and take your car from there.

Second, those is precisely why I keep an OBD scan tool with me. If you don't have one, simply take it some decent garage and just ask them to scan for faults and post the results here.

The coil can light up due to many reasons, without a fault code scan, no one can really come to any conclusion. You cannot assume injector failure or any component failure in general.

the coil lights up even due to something as basic as a break in the wiring going from the injectors, fuel rail pressure sensor, hpfp sensor, etc to the ECU. Now even if the scanning suggests a sensor failure, it still cannot be confirmed whether the sensor or the component is actually faulty without really checking the wiring. There are many basic things that need to be observed.

I just avoided a recent issue of the authorized service centre t trying to fleece me because I had a cheap obd scanner and an app installed. My fuel rail pressure wiring to the ECU had broken due to constant rubbing against the gearbox body.

The scan threw a fuel rail pressure circuit high error. so 1 thing was confirmed in my mind, whatever the issue wiring or component related, was related to the fuel pressure sensor only and nothing else.

The service centre executing told me that the connector to the fuel pressure sensor had gone bad and will cost 2200 + taxes. imagine, a plastic connector, which wasn't even in stock so upon questioning what if the the problem didn't get solved by replacing the connector, I'd have to bear the cost as the connector will specially be ordered for me.

This was only making conversation, as I had already checked with the multimeter that the connector was fine. I could read +5v with the terminals attached at +ve and ground. the output terminal testing would require a multimeter with much longer wires which I didnt have.

Lets continue, so apparently according to the service executive, if replacing the connector doesn't solve the issue, then then entire fuel rail needs to be changed and THEN, if THAT doesn't do it
then the high pressure fuel pump needs to be changed with the pressure regulator as the pressures are TOO HIGH. hahaha. I can't express the amount of abuse I wanted to shout right there and then. the fuel rail and hpfp costing 25k and approx 12k + taxes respectively. They're not even ready to talk about the possibility of a bad fuel pressure sensor or a broken wiring. I immediately told him to skip any and all diagnostics, and with the general service, took my car and ran away. They still like the usual leeches they're, charged me 800 for the initial scan.

Now the finer detail to note to accurately judge the issue was, looking at the fuel pressure readings in the app. they were constantly freezed at the maximum limit and not changing, irrespective of whether they're within range or not which suggested that either the fuel pressure sensor and short circuited from inside the its body or the wiring was broken somewhere, and it obviously without a doubt made sense to do the latter first. for this work I took it to an actual FNG, not just the term for the sake of it where later in the evening I was shared images of the not one, but 2 places where the wiring had broken due to constant vibration and rubbing against the gearbox body.

All the necessary wires were soldered, ( yes soldered, not twisted and covered with wire tape) which is what the service centre had tried doing with my egr sensor wire which had for some reason overheated and broken right from near the egr itself. And after listening to a lot of firing from me, had the balls to say, 'sir mera guarantee, aage poori life mein nahin tootega', which only raised the mercury higher causing the senior technicians to come at the scene, apologizing and using a proper shrink sleeve after joining the wires which is the standard VW protocol for broken wires.

Anyway, so after the fuel pressure sensor wires were put together, the guy at the FNG to avoid future issue slit open a hydraulic pipe, covered the harness using the slit pipe like a jacket, and used enough wire ties all around to make sure that first of all, the harness doesn't rub anywhere, and even if it does the 3 vulnerable places were covered with the hydraulic pipe jacket, which got those of you who don't know, is very, very, very hard to damage atleast for 2 lifetimes of the car as they rated for a pressure rating in excess of 3000 psi.

Well, all done, started the engine coil lights gone, engine jerking gone, engine protection limp mode gone without even having to reset the fault codes.

I paid a heft labour of 2k, which I paid smilingly as the FNG didn't try to take advantage, shared proper photographs of where the damage was, I left home more confident of being able to diagnose basic issues in my car and saving atleast 50k.


All VW models below the Jetta never came equipped with a DPF due to high cost.

[Racer911]

PS: Explanation to why the engine jerking happens. Obviously it can happen if the injectors are faulty and not able to supply fuel properly, but as soon as the coil lights up, with certain errors, VW immediately puts the engine in limp mode. What this means is that it wont allow the engine to go above 2200 rpm in any case, severely limit or eliminate the turbo boost pressure and the horsepower is also severely limited. So you'll still be eventually able to reach about 95 kmph gradually but reaching there would be slow. It'll feel like you're driving a 60 HP Maruti 800 from 15 years ago, which eventually did reach 95kmph if the pedal was pressed long enough. This is supposed to be a joke. Apologies to all Maruti 800 die hard lovers out there. And if at the time of error happening, you're already near 2k rpm or above that, you'll feel the sudden jerking as the ECU immediately cuts off fuel supply. But if the jerking is happening only due to limp mode, it'll only happen once or twice and once the engine is below 2k RPM, you'll be good. Repeated jerking due to limp mode is the coil lights up and goes, lights up and goes. So what this means is that whatever is causing the coil to light up, the fault is not staying long enough for the ECU to initiate a request to save the fault after which the CEL will light up. I dont know the exact timing, but some faults need to be constant for atleast a few seconds continuously for the ECU to turn on the CEL.

Mods: You may combine this. Tried to edit. but while editing, I guess the time limit for edit was over.