[DRPSREDDY]

There is one more issue too with the 2.2L Varicor engine too. It is longitudinal mount, where as the FCA 2.0 is horizontal mount.

I read previously that in the engine bay of LR platform, longitudinal mount engines don't fit. That was the reason to go for FCA engine.

Any insight from fellow members on it?

[aditya79india]

The mounting points of the engine can be modified as required. However, it needs modifications to the engine block and validations thereafter. Looks like TML finances have sufficiently improved to allow for this to be done. Earlier there was info on this forum that TML stopped inhouse development of 2.2 due to investment requirements and went for 2.0 MJD at exorbitant unit cost instead

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

There is one more issue too with the 2.2L Varicor engine too. It is longitudinal mount, where as the FCA 2.0 is horizontal mount...I read previously that in the engine bay of LR platform, longitudinal mount engines don't fit. That was the reason to go for FCA engine.

Can be done. Mahindra has mounted the same engine longitudinally in the Scorpio/Thar/TUV300 plus and transversely in the XUV500/700. The 2.2l dicor is mounted longitudinally in the Winger, but powers the front wheels. So anything can be done if they have the will or the monies.

[Geta]

This sounds like a red herring to me.

Mahindra has a logic for developing an in house 2.0 or 2.2 liter BS6 diesel engine as it sells about 14,000 vehicles per month with its 2.0 or 2.2 diesel engines.

The combined sales of Harrier+Safari is only about 4,400 of which diesel variants may account for about 3,500. It is just 25% of the numbers sold by Mahindra. Already TaMo has lost 2 and a 1/2 years since BS6 implementation. It might take another 1-2 years for them to launch their BS6 compliant in house engine. So 4+ years of sales lost already. Also with Harrier EV on the cards, the glamour for diesel engines in Harrier/Safari is bound to come down. Hence TaMo will not be foolish enough to invest in a 2.2 liter BS6 diesel engine now.

Just my 2 cents.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by Geta

This sounds like a red herring to me.

Mahindra has a logic for developing an in house 2.0 or 2.2 liter BS6 diesel engine as it sells about 14,000 vehicles per month with its 2.0 or 2.2 diesel engines.

The combined sales of Harrier+Safari is only about 4,400 of which diesel variants may account for about 3,500. It is just 25% of the numbers sold by Mahindra.

I feel this one true, because Mahindra has a range of SUVs to plonk their engine into, right from Bolero, Thar, Scorpio, Scorpio N, XUV700 and some commercial vehicles have the same engine but differing turbo and GB options.

TATA had only Safari and Hexa with the block along with Winger. Now lets take Winger sells about 4 thousand vehicles alone and another Small LCVs another 4k, then TML moving 8k engines of the same 2.2L.block. Adding PVs to the list, then they can add another 4-6k and reach 14k, if TATA add more SUVs to it's Portfolio.

Understand that TATA had to concentrate on EVs too and funds crunch had kept them from R&D on new SUVs. Now with TATA Passenger Electric Vehicle recieving 1 billion dollar funding for EV division along, they have all the money for ICE division and hope TATA now churns out more SUVs.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Can be done. Mahindra has mounted the same engine longitudinally in the Scorpio/Thar/TUV300 plus and transversely in the XUV500/700. The 2.2l dicor is mounted longitudinally in the Winger, but powers the front wheels. So anything can be done if they have the will or the monies.

It's taken them a lot of effort to create a transverse engine+6spd gearbox for XUV(2011). The engine was originally designed for NVH characteristics of a BOF vehicle.

[Benoit]

Originally Posted by Geta

The combined sales of Harrier+Safari is only about 4,400 of which diesel variants may account for about 3,500. It is just 25% of the numbers sold by Mahindra. Already TaMo has lost 2 and a 1/2 years since BS6 implementation. It might take another 1-2 years for them to launch their BS6 compliant in house engine. So 4+ years of sales lost already. Also with Harrier EV on the cards, the glamour for diesel engines in Harrier/Safari is bound to come down. Hence TaMo will not be foolish enough to invest in a 2.2 liter BS6 diesel engine now.

Harrier and Safari are offered only with diesel engine. The sales of both combined cross 4.5k every month, and goes close to 5k sometimes.

Before the Harrier was launched in 2019, there were reports that the order on FCA multijet 2.0 engines was 70k engines for each year for a term of five years. So, at the end of next year, when that agreement expires, Tata can either extend that agreement or make its own engine and save some cash. I believe, when Tata brings in more products that can house the bigger diesel engine, going the in-house 2.2L mill route makes more sense. Also, Tata now has the confidence that it can sell at least 4.5k units every month.

EV is the future, not the present. There are only 4 EV from mainstream manufacturers currently. EV sales equaling the sales of ICE cars is at least a decade away. Mahindra realized it very soon and invested a lot of time and money in the engines and we all know how much of a roaring success it is.

So, if you ask me, investing in a new diesel engine isn't a foolish move by Tata. Couple that with the fact that Tata already has a bs6 2.2L engine, and they need to make the varicor 400 version of the same engine bs6. The engine shouldn't take long for availability. The real question is when it would be plonked into a car, and when the said car will be launched.

[aditya79india]

I think there are more than a few factors at play here.

1. The speculated inability to meet 5 star GNCAP requirement with the current configuration of the engine.

2. The RDE norms are approaching and the MJD would require a re-tune. Possibly the engine supplier will ask for an arm and a leg to do the changes, that too separately for the Harrier and the Safari.

3. Many customers want AWD (LR pedigree without 4WD or at least AWD is a hollow claim). The current pricing of MJD is exorbitant for them (speculation). This forbids them from implementing AWD and yet price the vehicle reasonably against Mahindra offerings.

4. Enter the 2.2L Dicor / Varicor / Multicore �� engine
a.) Inability of current engine to meet RDE provides an escape clause from 70k/yr volume commitment. TML and engine provider can always disagree on the cost of RDE compliance.

b.) Lower cost of 2.2L gives adequate margin for introducing AWD and TML can either maintain margin and introduce this at same price or price the AWD variants higher while earning a very fat margin

c.) Once the 2.2L comes back, who knows they may launch a modernised Hexa…..revive the Sumo brand name against the Scorpio-N. Maybe an old Defender inspired competitor for the Thar too! All these are doing good volumes for Mahindra and only bolster the need for a common engine designed in-house.

The possibilities are limitless!

PS: I had this info before this thread came to being from another esteemed member who chooses to remain anonymous (Thanks dear)

[100Kmphormore]

I think this is the Varicor 400 come back in BS6 guise. The only drawbacks of that engine was the noise, absence of AWD for the occasional offroad difficulty in daily city operation. I have always wondered why the Safari/Hexa was so difficult to operate, with its notchy gearbox, road noise, heavy steering etc. they should make it more refined to fulfill both city and highway conditions. The Hexa was a big upgrade over Safari. The 2011 Scorpio in comparison felt better and somewhat smoother.

[speed79]

Originally Posted by Geta

The combined sales of Harrier+Safari is only about 4,400 of which diesel variants may account for about 3,500.

Correction. Safari and Harrier do come with diesel engine only. There is no electric version or petrol engine or any alternate fuel for both of these cars.

Originally Posted by 100Kmphormore

I think this is the Varicor 400 come back in BS6 guise. The only drawbacks of that engine was the noise, absence of AWD for the occasional offroad difficulty in daily city operation. I have always wondered why the Safari/Hexa was so difficult to operate, with its notchy gearbox, road noise, heavy steering etc. they should make it more refined to fulfill both city and highway conditions. The Hexa was a big upgrade over Safari.

Another correction. Storme varicor 400 had both vx 4x2 and vx 4x4. The 4x4 had 2L and 4L configurations. Also, Hexa XT had an AWD variant with the same varicor400 engine. I had my storme varicor320 Vx 4x4 for 6.5 years and never did I need to engage 4x4. 4x4 is needed only for hard-core off roading, and everything else can be managed with 2WD.

[COMMUTER]

Kudos to Tata, Mahindra and Toyota for overcoming this BS issue and not getting carried over with the impractical EV dogma. Though the EV lobby is powerful in curtailing any opinion against it, the hindrances in the form of lack of homegrown manufacturing prowess will prove to be insurmountable in a few years. The increasing prices and the bottlenecked supply of lithium battery raw materials will prove that the diesels are still the pragmatic option until we have enough wealth to fruitlessly spend on the EV trend.

[TorqueIndia]

Back up powertrain options are necessary for Harrier & Safari, as TML relies only on the FCA 2.0 right now. Significance of powertrain choices can be seen from the cases of Toyota Innova and MG Hector samples failing the compliances. TML cannot afford any hit to the high volumes (~5K units PM) these twins are doing right now. Any production delay without any back up powertrain choice to push would be a nightmare for TML.

Other significant gains TML could do with the in house block are :
* Hight safety crash rating.
* AWD variants.
* Higher engine output and electrification options.

[jeepster]

Along with 2.2 Vericor TATAs should bring back Body on Frame Storme (in the form of discovery 4 ) as there is no body on frame vehicle left in the market other than Scorpio/Thar.

[vredesbyrd]

Varicor is back?!
Oh yes. Bring back the "real" Safari! Or maybe revive the Hexa and make it go against Scorpio-N!
One can dream.

I've had good experience with the varicor (Storme and Grande)

We had the Grande between 2014 and 2017.
Probably that's where my love for BoF SUVs was seeded.

Lots of torque, clunky MT, squishy and bouncy drive, wheel spin in 1st gear. There was nothing I didn't like about it (maybe except the fact that the the other regiment had a higher variant with wooden trims)







P.S.: They could have slapped another cylinder to that 1.5L petrol turbo, turning it into a 1.8L I5 and it probably would have sounded great.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by aditya79india

c.) Once the 2.2L comes back, who knows they may launch a modernised Hexa…..revive the Sumo brand name against the Scorpio-N. Maybe an old Defender inspired competitor for the Thar too! All these are doing good volumes for Mahindra and only bolster the need for a common engine designed in-house.

Don't. Don't give us hope Tata!!!

Really hope they bring back the BoF products. The X2 platform and engine is ready. Just put a new top hat and interiors. I will willingly jump back from the Mahindra fanboi camp.