[varun.petro]

Originally Posted by Drlmtukkar

Be Indian. Buy Indian. Please.

Our home grown products are far, far better than any Koreans, who are here only for profits. And yes not to forget “MG". I really don’t understand how can we Indians buy Chinese products that are so quirky and all bling bling bling; ah, it’s shameful.

BUY INDIAN. END OF STORY.

Couldn't agree more. Buying Chinese car just seems weird to me. They may be good in electronics but mechanical engineering isn't their expertise.

If Mahindra can solve their supply issues, I think very few will buy Cretas. Currently it feels like that we have to wait in line like devotees to get our dream come true.

[anti21]

Originally Posted by Drlmtukkar

And yes not to forget “MG". I really don’t understand how can we Indians buy Chinese products that are so quirky and all bling bling bling; ah, it’s shameful.

BUY INDIAN. END OF STORY.

One thing MG has done well is they have given structurally solid and safe cars loaded with features. There is virtually no difference between Astor sold in India and ZST with 5-star rating sold in Australia, UK, Philippines etc. It is good to know that a car manufacturer that care about what happens to its customers inside the car in case of an accident. Even though they are relatively new, their after sales service also has been generally good.

The ex-showroom price of MG ZST in UK and Astor in India is almost same (within +-20%). They have not skimped it for the Indian market like other non-Indian companies.

In Astor, they are providing Emergency Fuel Cutoff, Driver & Co-Driver Seat Belt with Pretensioner & Load Limiter, Ultra-High Tensile Steel Cage Body, Intrusion Minimizing, Collapsible Steering Column and optional ADAS with Collision prevention system. Other manufacturers have just now started following the suit and even now do not offer these important safety features. I do not think any of Astor competitor offers all these safety features.

The main reason people do not go for Tata and Mahindra is because of their horrific after sales service in India. Either they themselves or someone they know have had a terrible experience with them. The cars they are making now are top notch but their after sales service leave a lot to be desired and not everybody has the time for multiple trips to service center and escalations. With other companies, this headache is comparatively less.

Competition is always good for the market, and I am sure that when the market returns to normal, this competition will force companies like Tata and Mahindra to re-evaluate their after sales service and improve upon it.

[prajwalmr62]

Originally Posted by autohead115

If cars would cost 50K more to do so, I don't see why not, but does it cost a lot more?

There are two kinds of costs,

• Manufacturing cost - Developing a safer car requires a dedicated engineering team and bigger R&D budget, and if required custom tooling and supplies, which means more cost.
• Opportunity costs - being late to market has its own disadvantages. You cannot spend 3 years developing a car just to find out it is outdated. Right now, you can't sell a car above 20L without sunroof. Imagine some company started designing a car couple of years back with couple of years old market research which didn't mention sunroof at all.

Originally Posted by Raghu M

Biggest point to consider here is the regulations. Kia and other manufacturers abide by the laws in EU and other countries because the regulations mandate certain compulsory safety measures.

Regulation is regulation. Even an idiot car maker ensures that they play within the boundaries set by the government. Why? Because governments can go back at anytime and screw around a company because it flouted regulation that one time. The reason car makers tend to provide better and safer cars in other regions is due to a) consumer ratings like NCAP b) Costlier cars and better margin = eager to get market share.

Originally Posted by autohead115

I thought Seltos and Creta were all international models, and it just feels like they are skimping on sheet metal.

They are not skimping on material costs much. There's a pretty good chance of them making a safer car with the same materials. That's the tragedy.

Originally Posted by Drlmtukkar

Be Indian. Buy Indian. Please.

Originally Posted by varun.petro

Couldn't agree more. Buying Chinese car just seems weird to me. They may be good in electronics but mechanical engineering isn't their expertise.

Indian car maker Tata imports parts from China. Chinese car company SAIC builds their MG cars in Gujarat, which was earlier GM plant. Both companies probably import same percentage of components.

We vote with our money, so buy the car that hits all your requirements. If we had bought only Indicas or Boleros because, made-in-India, then Tata/Mahindra would have had no actual reasons to make a better car.

[ASP_73]

Mod Note: There are several language, spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the forum experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use a spell-checker.

[neoonwheels]

Originally Posted by anti21

One thing MG has done well is they have given structurally solid and safe cars loaded with features.

We all would love to see Astor scoring the 5 stars but until its proven by GNCAP, all we can do is hope

Seltos has scored 5 stars in Aus NCAP but barely 3 stars in GNCAP. Same platform, same car but Indian Seltos is unsafe (cause of materials used). We never know if MG has done similar antics with Astor here even though internationally the EV counter part has done well.

Our only hope is Govt mandates it starting Apr 2023 so every car has to go through it and then consumers can take a call if they value their life or money. There will be choices and people can decide based on their usage of the car (City/Highway etc). For me, its always safety first then features. Reason I did not go with Harrier but booked XUV, later on I cancelled XUV and got myself Octavia.

[yashg]

I don't believe it's about cost alone. There are multiple factors.


1. Customer apathy - automakers don't make safer cars because most of the customers don't care. Look at Seltos' sales. Hardly any impact because of abysmal 3 star rating.

2. Using heavier metals will increase the weight and affect the FE of already underpowered engines. Most Indian buyers care more about "kitna deti hai" vs how safe it is.

[anti21]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

We all would love to see Astor scoring the 5 stars but until its proven by GNCAP, all we can do is hope

I agree, until the ratings are out the actual ratings are not out.

However, if we compare the specs sold in India vs UK, Astor has the same dimensions and weight. This can tell a lot from the body weight and dimensions, where Indian manufacturers tend to cut costs. For them, it results in cost saving and higher mileage. Due to this safety tends to become an afterthought.

MG Astor:
Length (mm) 4,323
Width (mm) 1,809
Height (mm) 1,650
Wheelbase (mm) 2,585
Weight (kg) 1,245 to 1,355

MG ZS (UK Spec)
Length (mm) 4,323
Width (mm)1,809
Wheelbase (mm) 2,580
Height (mm) 1,628/1,653
Weight (kg) 1,231 to 1,264 (They don't have a 1.3L Turbo)

If we compare that with your example of Seltos, you can see where the cost cutting has been done.

Kia Seltos India:
Length (mm) 4,315
Width (mm) 1,800
Height (mm) 1,645
Wheelbase (mm) 2,610
Weight (kg) 1,221 to 1,343 kg

Kia Seltos Australia:
Length (mm) 4,370
Width (mm) 1,800
Height (mm) 1,615/1620
Wheelbase (mm) 2,630
Weight (kg) 1,355 to 1,470

By looking at these specs, you deduce one of the main reasons why Kia Seltos India scored so low NCAP score compared to Kia Seltos Australia. This has been the strategy of the Korean twins and Maruti for a long time. Since Indians mainy used to ask how many features and "kitna deti hai", this is what they focused on.

Of course, this does not guarantee that Astor will score the same because it has the same weight and dimensions as UK counterpart, but same spec along with the safety features listed, the probability of scoring high increases.

So, we need competition like MG who come in and delivers the same international spec cars to India. This would result in the likes of Hyundai/Kia and Maruti having to up their game. Especially when giants like Ford and GM have already given up on the Indian market. Otherwise, we'll still be stuck with companies like Hyundai/Kia and Maruti to whom safety and key features like ADAS are an afterthought to "kitna deti hai". All of them offer ADAS in other markets but have decided not to bring it to India.

PS: I hate MG's naming convention. It is ZS in Thailand/Vietnam/UK, ZST in Australia and Astor in India. And there is an EV going on globally with a similar name to further confuse things.

[CoolFire]

From what I understand based on the numerous discussions we had here in the forum, there are two ways of improving structural safety -

1. Using thicker steel members
2. Using higher grade steel with minimal weight gain

Obviously, the first route is the lower cost option among the two. Tata and Mahindra had generally taken the first route as is evident from the weight of their cars in comparison to the lower safety competition.



I am quite aware that you can have higher safety with lower weight, but generally in segments less than 20 Lakhs, that is not what Tata and Mahindra have done.

Then how do they maintain fuel efficiency with the higher weight? Especially in the case of Tata in lower segment cars, it is managed with lower power engines compared to the competion. That in part, explains the lower power engines in Tata Punch, Altroz and Tiago.

Now analysing the options for Hyundai, Kia and Maruti (models other than Brezza and S Cross). They cannot go for heavier cars and suffer lower fuel economy. That will kill their markets. Also, they do not wish to go for significantly lower powered engines, as the peppy engines they give are loved by their customers.

So when designing cars for India, their thinking is always "what to give for a given price - higher structural safety with higher grade steel or better features?" The answer is always the bling features. This has been highly successful so far, as is evident from the sales figures. Times may be changing - but we are not there yet.

So it is not just a matter of amount being spent for safety. It is the amount to be spent for safety without compromising fuel economy. If much higher grade steel is used for the structure, the cost difference on on-road price could be as much as 1-1.5 Lakhs. This could make or break a model, especially in the sub 20 Lakh segments.

Once customers are asking for safety ratings, all this will change and safer cars will be introduced. The move towards strong hybrids and EVs could be very important in this aspect. Then you can have higher kerb weights and powerful engines without compromising much on the running costs.

[anti21]

Originally Posted by varun.petro

Couldn't agree more. Buying Chinese car just seems weird to me. They may be good in electronics but mechanical engineering isn't their expertise.

Well, SAIC Motors manufacturers GM and VAG vehicles in China. It is a Fortune Global 100 (Ranked 60) Company. Cars under the MG brand are developed by SAIC Motor Technical Centre (SMTC) in UK. SMTC formerly known as Longbridge plant has been home of Austin, British Leyland, Rover Group and, later, the MG Rover Group.

Hector has the same diesel engine as Harrier/Safari/Jeep Compass. Astor's and Hector's petrol engine is developed by SAIC with GM. Astor's gearbox is sourced from Asin Japan and at the risk of repeating myself, their body structure has received 5-star ratings in NCAP.

Even if they didn't have mechanical engineering expertise themselves (which I am sure by now they'd have gained since they've been around 67 years now), they've partnered with firms that do and their end products leaves no doubt at all. Their product's reliability has already been tested in various markets.

[samyakmodi]

It's not just the cost of increasing the metal put in the car but it also effects two most important factor for any Indian car owner - 1. Power to weight ratio gets effected which in turn effects the "pick up" 2. "Kitna deti hai"? If the structural weight is increased - the puny engine will not only be struggling to keep the vehicle rolling but would also mean lesser fuel efficiency as it would be working out much more to make the vehicle roll.

So it's not just the structure which needs to be strengthened but they need to come out with better engines as well. Which brings the cost substantially higher.

[manpreetsj]

Originally Posted by Drlmtukkar

And yes not to forget “MG". I really don’t understand how can we Indians buy Chinese products that are so quirky and all bling bling bling; ah, it’s shameful.

I am not sure if you follow global auto market, but the near future belongs to Chinese auto companies! They are way ahead of others in their offerings - be it safety, refined engines, tech, EV, etc. Just for reference, checkout this Carwow video on this topic. I do wish to see Indian automakers being talked about in global forum, but that will take years of investments!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPeZ4twEFTA&t=499s

On MG - They have the most VFM cars like Hector and Astor for sale in India, with no perceived safety issues. Cars are very well built and ZS EV sold in India got 5 star rating in Asean NCAP. Most of their cars on sale in Europe have got 4-5 stars in Euro NCAP.

I wish more companies start offering safer cars in India. Such healthy competition brought in by companies like MG and now TATA/Mahindra will force Koreans and Japanese to start giving us safer cars! I own Elite i20 and was disheartened to see poor safety rating ; made up my mind to stay away from such cars next time.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Your purchase dilemma has nothing to do with your question about the increased cost for manufacturers (especially Hyundai & Kia) to provide safe cars IN INDIA. It's a different topic all together which needs an understanding of the manufacturing process, regulations, and market dynamics.
Again, let us not compare the global market to the Indian market, apple to apple. It is definitely not the same.

Now coming back to your dilemma of which brand/car to choose, it depends on your priority, requirements, options you have, and of course your budget. Every brand/model has its strengths and weakness. So list down the details for a more appropriate and clear response from this forum.

[Ptr11s]

Originally Posted by ron178

The i20 on the other hand could reach four stars with a different airbag or maybe even a software update.

The i20 N-line has a different steering wheel and airbag module. Could there be a chance that the N-line could do better? Since, the N-line is a much more low volume(comparatively) and niche offering, hope they haven't bothered to reduce the airbag size when compared to the European N-line. Again, a crash test will only prove if N-line has a better rating than the standard i20.

Originally Posted by ron178

The KX3 was originally developed as an LHD-only model which probably explains the pedal movement problems in the RHD version.

Could the pedal movement problems be lesser in the automatic versions?

[Indepth]

I can think of more than one reason for automakers to shy away from making structurally safer cars.
Believe me, cost is not a factor at all, otherwise a 5 star punch was not possible.

Few possible reasons -
1. Lethargic attitude (why bother as long as it sells without it).

2. Focus on features and other aspects, in a way losing focus on R&D towards safety.

3. Money spent on providing features will fetch better sales. Spending on safety may not, as customers are ill-informed.

I think this complacency is going to cost some of these manufacturers very dearly. The uptrend in sales of safer cars is a warning sign.
Cars like Seltos, creta are selling only because of lack of competition. They are complete cars in all aspects for that price, except safety.

So, lets pray for buyers to get more informed / concerned for safety otherwise, we are in for another ride by some of these stubborn manufacturers.

[deep_bang]

This thread would have been a joke 5 years back. How Tata (more Tata than Mahindra) has changed the game both on quality side as well as on the safety side.
We are actually debating how hard it is for Hyundai/Kia to keep up with Tata. Can you imagine this thread in 2016-17?