[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

This is a thought provocative thread which I am writing for community members to introspect. I have been thinking about the same but never uttered a word to risk offending people but the KSRTC thread triggered me to write this (and the sunday morning).

The KSRTC bus running over and killing the bikers has become the talking point because of the evidence it brings before our eyes. Such callous, murderous driving is the norm rather than the exception across this country. There are innumerable members here who have been nudged (or worse) intentionally by a car or bus, been squeezed off the road, overtaken and cut off, brake-checked, and otherwise been victims of road rage because of poor driving.

My point is, are we auto-enthusiasts yearning for random useless features rather than focussing on important features

Each of these features is expected to maintain the driver's focus on the road, and not distract his attention while adjusting something in the car. So...

[*]Auto dimming IRVMs - For gods sake, its a flip of a switch, if you are lazy enough to flip a switch, you shouldnt be in the drivers seat.

I find the auto dimming feature to be a boon, because, between a high beam hitting my eye and flipping that switch, I'm blinded for a few seconds - and those are very crucial seconds.

[*]Powered seats - How many times do you guys adjust your seats? If you are chauffeur driven, this is irrelevant anyways.

I really like the memory function, though my own car doesn't have it. It takes me a few minutes to set up the seat and mirrors just so, after I take over from someone else. Does anyone believe in setting up the seat perfectly, before starting to roll?

[*]Cooled glovebox - How chilled can a cooled glovebox make your drink? The delta temperature between the glovebox and car cabin wont be too much. Also if you really are stocking up drinks, you can just buy them whenever you take a break.

One feature that I can do without.

[*]LED lights - I havent understood the obsession about the blinding white lights, but I dont completely understand the lighting technology

An original fitment LED low beam is far less blinding to oncoming traffic than halogens. Except, our idiot drivers WILL drive on high beams, irrespective of the lights being LED or halogens.

[*]4 star safety before Android auto touchscreens

Well, those screens have their advantages. I for one am a convert to Android Auto.

[*]Dashcams before 360 degree cams

It has to be both. Each is a distinct safety addition. 360 degree view cams certainly make for better visibility.

[*]Pedestrian safety features before panaroomic sunroofs

Pedestrian safety features of a car are dependent largely on frontal design. You want a high-GC SUV with good bonnet visibility, you can't have pedestrian safety as a part of the package.

[*]All 4 disc brakes before turbo charged engines

There we go again. All 4 disc brakes do not stop a car better than a disc-drum setup. If drum brakes were so inefficient, our trucks and buses would not have had them.

This is ... a broader thread which would like to question the existence of features which are not really needed. Who are these people who are trying to solve a problem which no one needs to be solved thus adding to the costs.

So we add DDAS, adaptive cruise control and collision avoidance radar to a new car, and some idiot promptly takes it out on the highway, speeds up behind a truck and gives up control of the car to the electronic monster, expecting it to save his silly life every time. Yet, when it comes to the real priorities, no one cares to understand what they really are. So, here's what I think should be our priorities, with a Safety First approach:

1) Every driver must learn to drive properly, and pass a stringent driving test on the road, not on a pre-determined obstacle course, before he can be allowed to drive without supervision.

2) Each driver must be re-tested for his driving skill after every crash where he is determined to be at fault, after every drink-driving violation, and after every 3 major traffic violations (e.g. red light jumping, speed limit violation, dangerous driving), at his own cost. If he passes, he can continue to drive; but if he fails, his licence should be suspended for 6 months.

3) Lane markings and lane direction marker arrows must be properly marked, and a system of cameras should be in place to penalize those who ride two lanes or criss-cross across lanes while driving. I am yet to see lane direction marker arrows in any city in India - can anyone update whether these exist in any Indian city?

...and I could go on, but never mind, you get the drift, I hope.

It is easy to get a licence, and it is easy to own a car - if you have the $$$ to buy either. The stark reality of this ease of buying and driving cars is strongly highlighted when we have videos popping up from all corners of the country, where people crash their newly-delivered cars within minutes of taking delivery. The priorities should be neither about convenience features, nor about safety features. The first priority should be about deserving to own and/or drive a car.

[yashg]

Originally Posted by BLACNWYTE

Our Panda (Creta SX+ 2017) was overpriced for the features it offered. It still bugs me that I didn't get the speed sensing door locks, ESP, all wheel disc brakes and full feature MID some of these features were offer in cars of lower segment and not in the premium offering.

The more I read about other cars, the more blessed I feel about my humble Ford Figo Aspire. My 2015 (petrol AT) model has speed sensing door locks and ESP. I am so used to these features that I take them for granted and assume every car that is more expensive than my Aspire would naturally have those features. Apparently not.

[LordSharan]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Guys,

Needs I have never understood, which a lot of people express on the forum

1. Auto dimming IRVMs - For gods sake, its a flip of a switch, if you are lazy enough to flip a switch, you shouldnt be in the drivers seat.
2. LED lights - I havent understood the obsession about the blinding white lights, but I dont completely understand the lighting technology

As someone who has been driving extensively during the night for past year or so and wears glasses, I've some inputs here:

1. Auto dimming mirrors are simply a boon. I would go as far to say that wing mirror should also be auto-dimmed. The quality of dimming in auto mirrors is much better, and it's such a relief from irritation caused by glare, especially since I wear glasses. For reference, I am comparing Santro Xing's manual internal mirrors vs Baleno & City's auto-dimming mirrors.
2. LED lights are a boon when used sensibly. People here in India do not use high beam sensibly, and high beam used on any type of light would blind people. LEDs have better throw, illumination compared to halogens/projectors (I'm referring to only OEM LED lamps here, and not aftermarket ones) anyday. Only when they aren't effective is when it rains or when we have fog. For that we should have halogen fog lamps.

My current car is Honda City where I have these two features apart from many other features described as frivolous in this thread by other esteemed members. Now when I upgrade my car, I'd not let go any of these features which I've become so used to, and expect these to be there.

1. For cars <10L - I think it'd still be okay to skimp out on features (except safety ones)
2. For cars >10L - I think it'd be foolish to skip features, because customer expects these cars to have features, and he isn't buying this just for a commute from A to B.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

There we go again. All 4 disc brakes do not stop a car better than a disc-drum setup. If drum brakes were so inefficient, our trucks and buses would not have had them.

They do, also they are safer. High end buses (Volvo buses have discs all around). LHB coaches in Indian Railways shifted to discs all around. Aircrafts have disc brakes on their wheels. I think manufacturers do not disc brakes because of cost or technological limitations.

[toiingg]

Before anything, can we please have rear wipers for every Hatchback model sold in the country. Its surprising that even at this age, manufacturers are skipping on a rear wiper+wash even for models costing upto 9L OTR.

Driving on the highways in the rains completely mists up and cakes the rear windshield with a fine layer of muck which makes visibility via the IRVM to nearly 0.

I don't think this is going to cost any manufacturer more than INR 5k, seeing that they already have this option in their top variants.

Hyundai just had the rear wiper on their top end 'Asta' back in 2015, which is when i bought it, then they rebadged their models, and the Asta didn't come with the rear wipers, in order to get them you had to buy their higher version the 'Asta O'. Ridiculous!!

Friend just booked a petrol Nexon, OTR is coming to almost 9L, unbelievably, it doesn't come with a rear wiper.

Such an important thing, being omitted by the car companies should be a sin. Akin to them not even bothering to provide OVRM's on both the doors till a few years back.

/rant

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by LordSharan

They do, also they are safer. High end buses (Volvo buses have discs all around). LHB coaches in Indian Railways shifted to discs all around. Aircrafts have disc brakes on their wheels. I think manufacturers do not disc brakes because of cost or technological limitations.

They do, if you insist. The three main factors where disc brakes have advantage over drums are: 1) less fade on extreme use; 2) less unsprung weight; and 3) quicker braking function recovery after running in water. As for the disadvantages, well, there are enough threads in this forum for you to search and read.

[EV NXT]

Why were there FAR less accidents in the days of yore with cars such as Ambassador, Fiat, Classic and Vintage cars even though they had NONE OF THE SAFETY SYSTEMS currently prevalent?

(i) Vehicle density - root cause of more driver errors, impatience, stress, lack of road courtesies, idiots on the road, road rage et al,

(ii) Add population explosion aka IDIOT EXPLOSION to the mix and stir properly.

Roads in keeping with growth in traffic, curtailment of idiots as drivers, deterrent punishment such as blood money, permanent ban on driving license for tough cases

will do a lot more than:

disc brakes, 360 degree cameras, TPMS or parking sensors can ever do to provide a solution.

[Piyush_DT]

There is no value of life at Indian roads and I think it has more to do with policy and laws. Nobody fears traffic police and we have been breaking laws for decades now. How did we came to this point that it is near to impossible to make people follow simple rules? Because we are used to it and it's new normal. There are very few people who follows the rules and regulations.

We were never ever enforced to follow the law. Policticians and policy makers always thought about their interest. Recent example is approximately 3 years back when government increased fine rates so that people will follow the law. But in days time almost all state government disagree to it and we never achieved the objective which could have been game changer.

The RTOs are also at major fault. Anybody can get licence and can drive or ride. Do you really think the KSRTC driver who was responsible for the mishap would have passed the driver's test had it been any other country or even our country's driver test?

Then comes VFM factor where safety is considered lastly by majority of Indian population.

Now, we are seeing some progress in terms of addition of 6 air bags and mandatory three point seat belt. Still there is lot to be done and we have very long journey. I feel untill the young responsible generation and the responsible government replaces the old one we have long way to go.

[IshaanIan]

I understand what you feel about unnecessary features being hyped but I'm not sure I agree about some of the particular features you mentioned.

Sunroofs seem to cop a lot of flak. Sure many of us proudly educated folks say that since we live in a tropical sub-continent and since folks are prone to misusing the feature, it is unnecessary. But I feel it does wonders in terms of opening up the feeling of space in a cabin in the night and also allows one to control the ventilation in the car without noise from opening the rear windows or dust in one's own face from opening the front windows.

Powered seats are also a brilliant feature. First since they are most often implemented with memory function which proves very beneficial when you give the car to a valet or for a service or if someone else has driven it. Also, while most of us might be fit, there are older folk who cannot twist and contort themselves to adjust the seat they have fallen into. Lastly, it makes adjusting the seat while on the move, a much simpler, safer and quicker process.

Tyre pressure monitoring systems are cool but I have always been able to tell if a particular tyre in my car or bike is low on air pressure just by how it feels so never found TPMS to be much of a feature unless it is someday linked to a supplementary electric motor that allows remote inflation/deflation.

Parking sensors are really annoying I detest the beeps and noises that they make and much prefer a silent non-interruptive 360 birds eye view. Unless the car is a hatchback in which case I personally don't find parking aids necessary.

Rear ac vents are another thing I have somehow not been able to come to appreciate myself. I feel it is much easier to ensure that your aircon is working well, which in turn would ensure cooling of the whole cabin in no time, than to ensure that there is airflow everywhere.

That said, I do agree that LEDs are unnecessary and poorly implemented (recently I figured out that the default off position for the light switch on the right side which is usually fully right on certain post BS4 two wheelers with always on headlights, is high beam ) Also it would be nice to see better brakes and manufacturer installed dash cams in the future (the levitating spinning camera on the Koenigsegg Gemera is pretty fascinating and I hope something like that trickles down the implementation ladder).

If I could add another feature which I find unnecessary, it would be rain sensing wipers and automatic headlamps. When the controls for these functions are on the stalks (on most cars), and the stalks itself are so ergonomically designed that they fall into your reach so easily, why automate?

And if I could add a feature that I believe is important but not widely implemented nor celebrated, it would be one touch up/down power window switches for all passengers.

[arbardhan]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Simple - electronic wizardry is easy for the manufacturer to implement and market. Building a safe car isn’t as straightforward or easy, not to mention expensive.

Correct. Gadgets are mostly third party and does not need R&D budget.

[Raghu M]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Guys,
Needs I have never understood, which a lot of people express on the forum[list=1][*]Auto dimming IRVMs - For gods sake, its a flip of a switch, if you are lazy enough to flip a switch, you shouldnt be in the drivers seat.

I quite agree with you on all the points. I have the opinion that this trend has caught up after a lot of YouTube videos reviewing cars purely based on the infotainment screen, the DRLs, the no. of cup holders you have etc. Not one reviewer mentions the crash ratings of the car or explain what is ABS, ESP etc and does a specific car has any of these features or not. And the biggest fashion is, they close the door and say, that thud is reassuring. They don't get the point that, the same thud is present in the Seltos and Scorpio too.

Coming to auto dimming ORVMs, I will differ partially. When you look at an auto dimming mirror in the morning, you will see the traffic at the rear very clearly. For the normal ORVM, what many people do is, they keep the switch flipped always to ensure that they do not need to check it during night. The visibility is not great if you do that. I think that is the only reason why many people prefer an auto dimming one. It's more fancy but nice to have feature.

[roadrunner_nv]

I share my car with my wife on our way to office. She drops me and carries on further. We share the driving duty. I drive till my office, she takes over and the same ritual on the way back. What could be really helpful is memory seats. Powered ones are of no use as it takes time to set up your right position. Both of us are finicky about the right driving position and we waste a lot of time here. So, memory enabled powered seats are a necessity for me.
Auto dimming IRVM and ORVM should be made mandatory. There’s no dearth of idiots in their Fortuners, Balenos and what not, flashing their disco lights behind you.
A good set of “standard” lights is absolutely mandatory. Don’t know why manufacturers skip this detail.
I guess that’s a small list of “necessities”

[Storm2.0]

2000rpm, you have nailed it. I'd like to add a few more.
1. Automatic climate control
2. Auto heaplamps
3. Auto wipers
4. Engine push start/stop button
5. Sensor based keyless entry
6. Wireless charging
7. Air purifier
8. Remote engine start/stop
9. Connected car features
10. ADAS/ autonomous driving tech
11. LED headlamps
To name a few.

[poloman]

There is an increasing obsession with soft touch plastics. Any car reviewer who gets in to a car now a days first do a knock test and declare the car is having hard plastic and is not premium. I agree the touch points should have soft touch material. But why expect soft touch everywhere where no one is going to touch. The durability of materials and non creaky construction should get the priority I feel.

[krishnakumar]

Auto dimming IRVM should not be on this list. It is not merely a convenience feature; people who have driven cars with autodimming IRVM would agree with me here.

While many have mentioned about the boon that it is, saving folks from a few critical seconds of blindness while they flip the switch, the real boon I feel is still lost on this thread. Or I may have missed it, apologies if I did. However, let me explain my thought here.

Autodimming IRVM (AIRVM going forward) was one of the top "safety" features I was considering while buying my car. And one of the biggest factors for me to strike out many other options from the market.

These don't just replace a flip switch. AIRVM has progressive levels of dimming that reduces glare according to the brightness of light from behind and the ambient lighting conditions. The manual IRVMs have just one level of glare reduction. That is MIRVMs have 0 and 1 whereas AIRVMs have 0 to 1. This is extremely useful in cases where you have a faint glare but you don't want to black out the entire reflection.

Also, flipping the swtich is a one time activity only if you assume that you need this for the entire distance of driving at night. As explained before, the dimming levels are too much for cases when there is no light and the risk of not noticing vehicles which have faint lighting (like a scooter) are high. I don't prefer dimming the IRVMs unless the glare is bad. Which essentially means I have to keep switching. Now count those cases where you're driving in a ghat section or in traffic where the glare behind you is moving in and out of the frame constantly. How long would you keep switching? I see it as more of a safety concern.

The AIRVMs solve ALL of the above problems and the driver doesn't have to care one bit about it. My vision has improved beyond comparison; I mean I would NEVER buy a car that doesn't have AIRVM going forward. Not because of the convenience of not having to flip a swtich but because it offers me a far more safer night driving vision.

[vaibhav_a_a]

Originally Posted by Raghu M

I quite agree with you on all the points. I have the opinion that this trend has caught up after a lot of YouTube videos reviewing cars purely based on the infotainment screen, the DRLs, the no. of cup holders you have etc. Not one reviewer mentions the crash ratings of the car or explain what is ABS, ESP etc and does a specific car has any of these features or not. And the biggest fashion is, they close the door and say, that thud is reassuring. They don't get the point that, the same thud is present in the Seltos and Scorpio too.

This makes the mechanical engineer in me think that the triple E folks have taken over. Also, an old joke from the harvard website.

"For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on. At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue.
For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation" warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off."

source : https://www.hcs.harvard.edu/pnw/microsoftjoke.htm

p.s. come to think of it #10 has come true!