[bimmer1988]

Originally Posted by RJK

Pls, do share the engine spec of the Lexus ES 300 that's sold in India, according to you

Again, pardon my lack of research on this. My understanding was ES sold in India was similar to what we have here, so my sincere apologies there. And a fellow member did point it out the same in previous post, so instead of the curt remarks, be a bit more polite in your demeanor.

Originally Posted by RJK

We can moan & groan about Toyota's atrocious pricing

Damn, why so toxic mate. It is just an opinion and I will still stand by it. Toyota is taking Indian customers for a ride. Take a chill pill.

Originally Posted by RJK

Why UK! Even here in India most of the 3 series & C class' used to be for chauffeur driven folks earlier.

Its hilarious to compare backseat comfort of a 3 series with the Camry. I know because I tried myself to convince the same before actually buying a 2021 Camry last year.

Again, I think I clarified my primary grudge is with the pricing, so please stop coming up with arguments supporting how Camry is great with rear seat comfort.

Originally Posted by RJK

General thoughts below

I'm a hardcore BMW lover but in the interest of family, we bought a Camry last year. When I see my 70yr old dad & mid 60s mom along with my 2yr old sleeping cosily in the backseat, it gives me immense satisfaction. That's something which would be hard to replicate in a BMW given the ride quality & space at the back. I sat once in the backseat of our Camry on Bombay-Pune expressway & was just so happy with the ride! Ofcourse, in the city its fantastic too but I was blissfully surprised on the e-way ride as well. Moreover, 1st service on the vehicle was performed last month, the cost was 3k, yes 3k. Just an oil change service but still 3k! I agree the car might have been over priced by 10L but even then, no 30L vehicle will cost only 3k for 1st service!

Cheerio

I don't know how services work there, but when I bought my BMW here, I was greeted with a 4 year full service covered plan, where I didnt have to shell out even a single penny for service. And coming to the point of the car costing only low cost per service, dont forget they charged you 10 lacs premium which offsets the low cost they seem to be misleading you with.

Again, sincere apologies if I touched a nerve there with camry lovers, that was not my intention. All I wanted was Indian customers to understand what was a fair price for the vehicle. Peace out.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Again, pardon my lack of research on this. My understanding was ES sold in India was similar to what we have here, so my sincere apologies there. And a fellow member did point it out the same in previous post, so instead of the curt remarks, be a bit more polite in your demeanor.

Damn, why so toxic mate. It is just an opinion and I will still stand by it. Toyota is taking Indian customers for a ride. Take a chill pill.
......

Dear @bimmer1988, we all love our cars a little too passionately and that comes out in our posts - like a mother tigress defending her cub - in both of your posts and that of others who replied back. On Team BHP a post that sounds cocky or dismissive {may not be the intent} can attract the attention of several such passionate cars lovers. Your first two posts did the trick. I think this post of your reflects your graciousness and my thanks to you for it. Enjoy Team BHP. We would all be enriched by your experiences of cars and driving in USA. Best wishes, V.Narayan.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

All I wanted was Indian customers to understand what was a fair price for the vehicle. Peace out.

You are right and Indian customers do understand the pricing vis-a-vis other markets. The low sales of Camry inspite of Toyota brand reflects the same. However, it's a perfect car for some buyers - more perfect than the Germans etc. A typical Camry buyer in India tends to be a very knowledgeable and discerning buyer - and usually very affluent. Just has a different set of priorities and value perception. Camry sold in India feels very premium compared to economy trims sold elsewhere. Given the social status of typical buyers of Camry, it also enjoys a very upmarket image comparable to Luxury brands. To be honest, most of us think if someone is willing to buy a Camry instead of aspirational C class - they are either too intelligent, too rich or both :-) It's like someone ordering a la carte meal for the same price of a buffet meal when both options are given - you won't be mistaking the guy to be unaware of fair value.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Damn, why so toxic mate. It is just an opinion and I will still stand by it. Toyota is taking Indian customers for a ride. Take a chill pill.

Again, I think I clarified my primary grudge is with the pricing, so please stop coming up with arguments supporting how Camry is great with rear seat comfort.

Everyone is chilled only, but are simply trying to point out the Camry in India is a totally different proposition than the Germans given our requirements.

With this in mind, it is also much better kitted than even the top end trims available in UK, USA.

Regarding pricing, as mentioned in my previous post, I mentioned how there was a paltry $6,000 or so difference between the lesser equipped (than it's Indian counterpart) American Camry Hybrid XLE & v/s the better equipped (than it's Indian counterpart) American 330i Sport-Line.

If we were to even up the features to the Indian spec variants, I doubt there would be more than a $2-3,000 difference - in line or worse than the difference in India.

Just out of boredom, I checked the UK prices too & honestly the difference isn't that great there either after adjusting for specifications sold in India.

The pecking order of brands remains when you do an apple-apple comparison based on the trims actually launched here.

Just for information: the cheapest 3 series available in the UK (318i SE) costs GBP 33,250 whereas the top end Camry Hybrid (Excel trim) in UK retails for a cool GBP 35,000 + options : so around GBP 37-38,000 with options and another GBP 1-1.5K to get it to India spec levels -
Say GBP 38,500 top end Camry UK v/s GBP 33,250 for base G20 3 series UK.

Note: the Camry Hybrid has been discontinued in UK so it wasn't easy finding the price on their website, but nothing google can't find out.

Similarly, if BMW launches a further base trim of the 3 series like what Audi has done with the A4 - I won't be surprised to see it on par with the Camry Hybrid.

As for their sales numbers: Interestingly, almost everyone talks about the deal they struck while buying a German, but one never hears of such lucrative offers from Toyota. Guess Toyota is content with their sales figures. Last I heard the Camry Hybrid had a 3+ month waiting period!
As much as we may crib about their pricing & how they seem to be going the Honda way; their sales numbers seem to indicate the opposite.

By the way, I do agree that Toyota prices it's cars at a premium. I don't think anyone is disputing that - just look at the Fortuner and Innova! Despite owning 5 new Toyota's, I myself find it hard to justify purchasing another new Toyota but that is more due to my limited running & requirements.

[mandarpotdar]

Originally Posted by MMV

Nice and crisp write up on car and TD.
On a separate note, front facing is all Toyota cars are menacing The material used and the way its fitted, even a slightest hit or careless take at an incline or big hump will lighten your pocket substantially. If you are ok to do makeshift tightening of front fascia incl bumper from an FNG, you may save some bucks, but it shows up, esp more as the car segment goes higher.

This particular body part seems to biggest money spinner for Toyota in sales and service revenue with rear bumper coming 2nd.

Fragile nature of front bumper does not seem to be a worry in non Japense cars esp European cars

Posting for a friend who is seriously considering buying a Camry:

----------
Thanks for sharing this. This is worrisome if TOYOTA is intentionally doing it. Designing a part intended to break easily is plain unethical. Also, is your comment is specific to TOYOTA or all Japanese manufacturers? I am curious to know if you have some personal experience or is a generic observation? if you don't mind can you please share the data based on which you reached this conclusion?
----------

Thanks!

[MMV]

Originally Posted by mandarpotdar

Posting for a friend who is seriously considering buying a Camry:

----------
Also, is your comment is specific to TOYOTA or all Japanese manufacturers? I am curious to know if you have some personal experience or is a generic observation?
----------

Thanks!

My personal experience is with Etios and Corolla. No direct experience with Camry or other Japanese manufacturers. Would suggest your friend to check mounting of the bumper (front and rear) specifically when checking out the Camry. The car definitely is very attractive and VFM (my opinion).

[krishnakarthik1]

There are some things money can't buy but for everything else there is the Innova Crysta!

The best and the only Toyota one should touch in India right now.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by MMV

My personal experience is with Etios and Corolla. Not direct experience with Camry or other Japanese manufacturers. Would suggest your friend to check mounting of the bumper (front and rear ) specifically when checking out Camry. The car definitely is very attractive and vfm (my opinion)

Though I won't vouch for 2007-17 Toyotas build quality (not fit/finish, reliability, safety, just absolute quality) and especially for modern pedestrian friendly bumpers, the Etios bumpers are so pathetic you can't even use it as an example for anything. Even an Alto's bumpers are more solidly built.

[JoshMachine]

Tried to casually gauge views on bookings from the dealer (Shaw Toyota).

First reaction: strong response from customers. As a matter of fact, the two demo cars that I saw on display last week have been picked up by customers already and the dealer doesn't have any demo car in the showroom!

The Sales rep even mentioned that Toyota is finding it challenging to provide demo/test drive cars to dealers, such is the demand spike for outright customer deliveries.
And the dealer already has a backlog of 15-20 bookings, could be exaggerated but not impossible also. They seem to be mostly "upgrade" customers.

[RJK]

Originally Posted by mandarpotdar

Posting for a friend who is seriously considering buying a Camry:

----------
Thanks for sharing this. This is worrisome if TOYOTA is intentionally doing it. Designing a part intended to break easily is plain unethical. Also, is your comment is specific to TOYOTA or all Japanese manufacturers? I am curious to know if you have some personal experience or is a generic observation? if you don't mind can you please share the data based on which you reached this conclusion?
----------

Thanks!

Hey Mandar from IX-I AECS-4! (I hope I’m right!)

How’re you doing, Mr Astronomy!

We own a 2021 Camry and I can tell you that the build quality is better than the rest of the Toyota products. Though I have not bumped the car to test the bumpers but they feel better than that of our Innova. It’s very common to see front bumpers clipped on the front fenders with a screw

Cheerio

[mandarpotdar]

Originally Posted by RJK

Hey Mandar from IX-I AECS-4! (I hope I’m right!)

How’re you doing, Mr Astronomy!

We own a 2021 Camry and I can tell you that the build quality is better than the rest of the Toyota products. Though I have not bumped the car to test the bumpers but they feel better than that of our Innova. It’s very common to see front bumpers clipped on the front fenders with a screw

Cheerio

Yep, that's correct!

Doing good. Btw, help me identify you better - Ravi or Raghavendra - or ??.
(I still haven't figured out how to send private messages on team-bhp)

Thanks for the Camry update.

[RJK]

Originally Posted by mandarpotdar

Yep, that's correct!

Doing good. Btw, help me identify you better - Ravi or Raghavendra - or ??.
(I still haven't figured out how to send private messages on team-bhp)

Thanks for the Camry update.

#2 is sahi jawab. I think you don't have PM privilege given that you're a newbie.

[pta320]

2022 Toyota Camry is an excellent product and one of the best modern Toyotas out there. I would pick it anyday over Germans especially since Toyota has long been the king when it comes to hybrid vehicles and over the years they have mastered the hybrid technology.

Often I hear that hybrid cars end up being very expensive to maintain and high voltage battery can set you back lakhs of rupees, that is only true to some extent and only when you don't do the proper maintenance. This newer Camry almost certainly has the high voltage cooling fan filter and if you periodically clean the high voltage fan filter and the fan, the battery can simply last 15-20 years easily. There are some other maintenance points in hybrid vehicle which are critical to the longevity and if maintenance is done properly these cars can last just as much as a regular Toyota without much trouble. So this is just a misconception that hybrid will break down. Just to put it simply, a Toyota hybrid is anyday more reliable and will last much much longer than a conventional fuel VAG car.

Lastly there is a youtube channel, 'The Car Care Nut', being run by a Toyota master diagnostic technician and it has some very valuable information about the maintenance of hybrid cars and in general any Toyota for that matter. Do go ahead and check it out before buying a hybrid, all the maintenance items like cleaning high voltage fan filter, coolant for hybrid system etc. is explained very well.

[Ashutosh]

The competition for Toyota Camry 2022 is BMW 3 Series / Audi A4 / Mercedes A-Class / Volvo S60 / Jaguar XE ++ according to

https://www.carwale.com/find-car/res...bodyStyleIds=1

Lexus ES300H the initial offering from Toyota's premium brand is close to 57L.
For a 15-16 L difference, one gets a relatively new brand for the Indian market, a different experience than the german trio that the roads are familiar.

Camry hits all the marks for me except the dashboard design. The interior work on Lexus ES300h is worth the extra 15-20L paid for it.

I must admit though we have now more choices than before

[OffRoadFun]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Help me understand this pricing.

I live in the US, and we get a Camry for 23k USD, and a BMW 330i for 40k USD. Whereas, a Camry in India would cost me 41 lacs, and a BMW 330i would cost me 45 lacs. So, who in the right mind would spend such a fortune on a commoner car like Camry. Again, nothing against Camry, it does its job well, but for that price point you should be looking at luxury sedans.

It needs to be noted US is THE car country, with lowest excise duty and taxes. Even the "German" cars, both luxury and non-luxury, cost less in the US compared to what they cost in Germany/Europe. Even Chevy Corvette, an affordable supercar in the US at around $70k, is expensive in Europe. India, Brazil etc are other end of spectrum where the cars are exorbitantly expensive with double whammy of lower incomes.
How does Camry/Accord become luxury cars or status symbols in countries like India? Mainly due to the fact that their price falls in into zone of non-affordability bringing exclusivity. Some CKD may be priced high just because of being imported completely, examples would be Lexus, Skoda Yeti (for some 30L+ 10 years back) Camry etc.

But yes, to a person in US it looks like an outrageously expensive deal. As an ex-owner of Camry, I would never consider it Luxury and sportiness element is zero.

But yes, cars are indeed exorbitantly expensive in India and it redefines what is luxury/high end car, sometimes not totally rationally. Eventually, for value conscious Indians for most part, Camry does make sense.