[bimmer1988]

Originally Posted by armaan_singh

The Camry is basically a Lexus ES but with a T badge. So that should help it’s cause on the pricing front. Most people who are chauffeur driven For 40 big ones, I would personally just pick up the Superb L&K and get the best of both worlds.

Nah dude, ES is way too luxurious and has way better engine. Camry at 40 lacs is outright madness, and I wont ever be able to get my head around it. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread, but just want to point it out to fellow members, that there are much better cars in this price range other than Camry. So please be mindful of the price Camry commands in other markets and the perception it carries. Don't let these companies convince you otherwise.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Nah dude, ES is way too luxurious and has way better engine. Camry at 40 lacs is outright madness, and I wont ever be able to get my head around it. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread, but just want to point it out to fellow members, that there are much better cars in this price range other than Camry. So please be mindful of the price Camry commands in other markets and the perception it carries. Don't let these companies convince you otherwise.

People don't have a choice but pay 4 million for a UTE based SUV from Toyota so the Camry's price may look ok from that perspective.

IMHO the Camry services a different audience in India when compared to abroad and it will make sense for them. There's a term called stealth-wealth. I've heard of people who just don't want to be seen in a German luxury car for certain occasions/trips and the top trim Camry would serve them very well. The equivalent Lexus will get attention from even 500 meters away. Also, one should not compare the Uber-spec Camry from abroad for pricing and features.

I find it difficult to believe that this audience buys the Camry only for it's reliability. I mean, are these people going to do 100K Kms in a year or are German Luxury cars breaking down every 25K Kms?

[V.Narayan]

Early warning: Loyal Camry user here of 15+ years. In the last 17 odd years we have had the Skoda Superb, Toyota Camry {the first variant that came to India} in circa 2004 or 2005, the ES Lexus in our garage. The Skoda was my wife's car {chauffer driven} as is the Lexus ES now and the Camry was the office car used for customers and senior staff.

Over the years I have evaluated the Mercedes E class and the BMW 5 for myself and rejected them. Some observations from my side --

- Not every one, which by the way is the majority of the car buying market, is interested in speed, acceleration, cornering and power. Comfort, safety, reliability, hassle free ASS, easy availability of spares are far far higher priorities on most buyers minds. In this the Camry scores. Team BHP members being car geeks and young are skewed towards performance but that is a small segment of buyers only.

- As many have put it so well the Camry is understated. An attribute to be valued. I'd say by the same token given India's obsession with the German 3 even the Lexus ES is understated and cheerfully goes unnoticed.

- rear seat comfort the Camry beats the BMW 3 and 5 hands down. You can't even start to compare.

- there is no point comparing the price of any car in USA or Dubai with that in India simply because we live in India and buy here. It is what it is. The Skoda Superb's we see in Germany or Prague as taxis have lower specifications than the model sold here. So saying it is a taxi there but a executive sedan here doesn't quite cut. I do not know about the trim and specifications of the Camry's in USA/UK. Maybe the same applies to them but I may be wrong. I do believe that with Camry, BMW, Superb what we get here have higher specs than what you get as baseline or mid-trim models in Europe/USA.

- Not everyone wants to buy the most expensive car that he can comfortably afford. At a certain stage and age in life you want to tone down not tone up.

- Toyota unfortunately have a nasty habit of always pricing up. We may not like it but it is their sales/profit strategy and often they get away with it because of customers like me!

- With their revised front looks Toyota have finally managed to make the car look good and not with their usual evil grin designs.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Team BHP members being car geeks and young are skewed towards performance but that is a small segment of buyers only.

- rear seat comfort the Camry beats the BMW 3 and 5 hands down. You can't even start to compare.

+1. I couldn't have articulated it better. I find it funny too when people causally say that the back seat of a 3 or 5 series is similar to the Camry. Either they never sit in the back or have not experienced things like age and associated back pain.

It is so amusing to see lots of 3 series being used as Taxis in the UK. Having driver one for close to 1L km in India, I and my wife always chuckle when we see these being used in the taxi market. Horrible rear seat comfort combined with average boot space and high bills - all qualities that should go against a taxi!

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Nah dude, ES is way too luxurious and has way better engine.

ES is definitely more luxurious, but they have the same engine in India. Exact power, torque figures, and the hybrid system.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

ES is way too luxurious and has way better engine. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread, but just want to point it out to fellow members, that there are much better cars in this price range other than Camry.

ES300h sold in India and the Camry have the same engine, absolutely no difference under the skin between the two. ES definitely uses higher quality bits, but the Camry is no Fortuner either. Camry has an electrical reclining backseat which the ES misses and various other controls on the armrest at the back. At 50Lakhs please tell me another car with an electric steering column, which moves when you enter/exit the car.

Camry at 40 lacs is outright madness, and I wont ever be able to get my head around it.

In India, you'll be able to get the A4, C-Class and regular 3 series at almost the same price. Lets say you're going to be chauffer-driven, it'll be pretty clear which will be the clear winner in terms of rear-seat comfort and space! None of the 3 big Germans even come close to provide the same rear seat experience as the Camry offers. Yes, Superb offers more legroom at a cheaper price but still it's no Camry in-terms of backseat.

So please be mindful of the price Camry commands in other markets and the perception it carries. Don't let these companies convince you otherwise.

I can get a 530i in the US for lets say anywhere between 45-50 Lakhs after the current markups and market conditions, in India I can get it for 72-75 Lakhs, that doesn't mean I'll say BMW India is making a fool out of their customers! And the 5 series and E class regular wheelbase is being used in the taxi-market in Germany for a long time now, I won't carry the same perception if I'm buying them in India because the use-case will be pretty different.

[androdev]

Those who are buying the German cars for urban slow commute should buy the Camry Hybrid instead. Those who are buying the Camry Hybrid for long distance cruising should buy the German cars instead.

Reliability, cost of ownership and understated looks were relevant a decade ago and not any more.

Urban slow commute:
Hybrid drive train is a marvel of engineering in slow moving traffic. Even if you don't care about fuel efficiency, it offers very quiet and smooth ride. The car is spacious with excellent ergonomics and creature comforts. The experience is like no other in slow urban commute.

Long distance cruising:
Suspension of German cars is FAR superior to that of Camry. Forget enthusiasts, my parents are quick to point this out. Also you won't gain much from Hybrid technology during a long distance trip.

Reliability: MB and BMW are not that far behind since 2010 or so. Excellent warranty packages available. I would consider VW group to be still very poor in this aspect. Reliability (and resale) do come into play after 100K (high mileage) or so where Toyota will be much better. However most buyers don't keep cars for that long.

Cost of ownership: Running costs are certainly low in the case of Toyota but there is a lot of upfront purchase cost in the case of Toyota.

Understated looks: All cars look like million bucks these days. There are no understated cars any more (be it Toyota, Volvo, Lexus or whatever). Nobody would confuse you for a poor man. Obviously the Germans have more prestige but a Camry is not going to go unnoticed.

[Bsreecharan]

In my PoV, the debate is not whether Camry is a luxury car or not in India. It is driven by pricing and automobile real estate which is a manifestation of tax structures of our country. We cannot compare it with other countries as the tax structures are very different. A VW Tiguan, for example costs about 50% lesser than its ex-show room at Ex-factory, you can imagine the taxes. And now when we compare Camry / Superb price point with German Trios, yes one can think that they might as well get a German Brand. It boils down to the luxurious and super spacious top end model of a mass market Vs entry level and cramped model from the German Trio. To get the space of a Camry / Superb in any of the German's One need to pay atleast 25 - 30 L.

MOD NOTE : - Request you to please go through Forum's posting etiquettes, shall help in better post composition and readability.

Thanks for support and co-operation.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Inline.

1.Hmm, I would love to know in which countries Camry commands luxury car title. Even in Japan and UK, it is still a budget friendly full size sedan.

2. Sure, but I doubt the quality difference is that huge to warrant such a hefty price tag.

3. So, they come in top trim, but how does that justify the pricing ?

4. I get the taxation part, but the same applies to german companies as well. I feel this taxation point is moot given both germans and camry are gonna come here via similar routes.

5. With every generation, the 3 series has grown in its wheelbase. The G20 is pretty good on rear seat comfort. Moreover, you can always get a sedate drive from the germans if thats what you please, but at the very same time if you ever decide to put your foot down, you can also get the ride of your life. Point being, for the same value, with germans you are getting a car which can do what a camry would do plus something more for the occasional thrill. So, why would I ever invest in camry at same price point. Yes, if you offer me camry at 60 percent of the price value of germans, I may think about it.

L

1. South-east Asia

2,3,4. In tax negligible Saudi Arabia, you can get a base Camry for 19 lakhs. The topmost hybrid variant sells for 30 lakhs, even then it loses on some features vs the Indian Camry. In the UK, the Camry is sold at 32-35 lakhs. You can have a 3er in UK for 33 lakhs, but it will touch 43+ lakhs when you option it to the Indian spec one.

5. I would never defend the Camry pricing, if there was a Mark X or Crown sold in India. As driving enthusiasts, we may feel that a 3er, C class is way more bang for the bucks than a Camry. Yes, it is. But then, there are also BMW owners who couldn't care for driving dynamics. There are many BMW owners who would drive a a FWD A4 and remark how easier it is to drive the Audi. Badge sells. In such a market where brand snobbery rules, there maybe buyers who would want a stealth luxury car. Also VFM differs for different people. For me personally, most of the current Indian car prices don't feel VFM. Maybe the cheap entry level Marutis or the Triber or Ertiga or Altroz D or XUV700 MX or Thar or Innova GX. Rest all doesn't feel VFM even in the sub 20 lakhs segment. But I can't expect others to feel the same. No one would buy new cars then.

About a Camry at 60% of the German's price. This is not the 1980s, my friend. You can get a base variant Corolla for 60% of the base 3series price.

[KPS]

Originally Posted by androdev

Those who are buying the German cars for urban slow commute should buy the Camry Hybrid instead. Those who are buying the Camry Hybrid for long distance cruising should buy the German cars instead.

.................. but a Camry is not going to go unnoticed.

Absolutely agree. Driving 2020 Camry for almost 2 years. Largely been in Bangalore. Really enjoy the driving experience.

Fuel economy is 14+ kmpl in the city and highway from 18-21 kmpl, based on the speed. Road clearance is also great.

The Hybrid experience is actually fascinating! Been to my home town in Coorg multiple times and the car suits my style of driving.

Cheers

KPS

[bimmer1988]

I feel I need to reiterate that my issue is not with the car. I understand that it suits a specific audience and have nothing against the folks who like it. My grudge is with the pricing, and here are my reasons.

1. A point was made about the tax policies in other countries which keep the car prices low. This is true, and thus I am not asking for the same prices in India which we see in the US for the same car. So let's stay away from the discussion of tax policies and stuff which keep prices low in other countries.

2. From what I have seen, almost everywhere globally , a top spec'd camry is priced below the mid spec'd compact sedans from luxury brands (audi a4, bmw 3 , lexus is to name a few). And based on that, I have come to believe that camry pricing should be lower than a compact luxury sedan as a de facto standard. However when it comes to India, Toyota is defying this set standard and charging a premium. Is this because the Indian consumer is not aware of the global situation (pricing) of cars ?

There are two answers to it. Either the luxury brands are selling their cars for cheap or Toyota is pricing their cars on a higher scale. And if it is the latter, I do have a problem with it. Maintain the global order of pricing. Had the luxury cars been priced at 50 lac, and camry at 40, I would probably have accepted it as ok because of taxation reasons and what not. But when luxury cars are able to offer their cars at 40, I kind of expect toyota to offer their cars at 30, because the same tax rules apply to both of them.

I hope I was able to make my point. In totality, I would like the discussion to steer in the direction of why pricing is not adhering to the global pricing scale (camry priced lower than luxury compacts), and avoid talks and justification around why camry is a good car that suits a specific set of people.

[Pyrotek]

I agree with bimmer1988. Toyota is preparing themselves for going the Honda way with their price and positioning across their entire product line in India. The Crysta, Fortuner, and Camry are each about 10 lakhs more than where they should be priced. Camry is a great car but for 50 lakhs?! Strange but such is success. Ultimately it's up to customers to stop this by speaking with their wallets. Until that happens, who can blame Toyota.

[landcruiser123]

This gen Camry closes the gap between regular Toyotas and Lexus models. It is very impressive.

Adding to the Camry vs 330i debate - there are 2 neighbors I know in India who own the previous gen Camry Hybrid as their weekend beater or chauffeur-driven barge for the elderly/children at home. A 330i (or any entry level premium German sedan) wouldn't serve the intended purpose (comfort, space, reliability, running cost, relatively inconspicuous nature) and they had expensive Merc & Audi SUVs as their flagship rides.

There is a limited clientele for the Camry Hybrid and Toyota is maximizing profit per car instead of volumes. Depending on the budget, hard-core enthusiasts will buy the Octavia, Superb, or 330i, but the Camry is there for everyone else

[KPS]

Yes the Camry has closed the gap with the Lexus, sharing the same chassis and engine. Obviously the Lexus is more luxurious than the Camry.

Though I am very happy with the Camry, in my personal belief, a Hybrid Corolla would been a for more practical car, being smaller. The pricing too would be more affordable. Would have ticked more boxes in India.

From Toyota perspective, their belief that the Corolla sedan segment has been killed by the multiple SUV offerings, would have been a strong deal breaker.

Unfortunately it is a chicken and egg story. The low volumes of Camry probably the most significant factor in the pricing. However, there would also be a belief that even with reduced pricing the volumes may not pick up to the desired levels.

Cheers

KPS

[RJK]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Nah dude, ES is way too luxurious and has way better engine. Camry at 40 lacs is outright madness, and I wont ever be able to get my head around it. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread, but just want to point it out to fellow members, that there are much better cars in this price range other than Camry. So please be mindful of the price Camry commands in other markets and the perception it carries. Don't let these companies convince you otherwise.

Pls, do share the engine spec of the Lexus ES 300 that's sold in India, according to you

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

I feel I need to reiterate that my issue is not with the car. I understand that it suits a specific audience and have nothing against the folks who like it. My grudge is with the pricing, and here are my reasons.

2. From what I have seen, almost everywhere globally , a top spec'd camry is priced below the mid spec'd compact sedans from luxury brands (audi a4, bmw 3 , lexus is to name a few). And based on that, I have come to believe that camry pricing should be lower than a compact luxury sedan as a de facto standard. However when it comes to India, Toyota is defying this set standard and charging a premium. Is this because the Indian consumer is not aware of the global situation (pricing) of cars?

There are two answers to it. Either the luxury brands are selling their cars for cheap or Toyota is pricing their cars on a higher scale. And if it is the latter, I do have a problem with it. Had the luxury cars been priced at 50 lac, and camry at 40, I would probably have accepted it as ok because of taxation reasons and what not. But when luxury cars are able to offer their cars at 40, I kind of expect toyota to offer their cars at 30, because the same tax rules apply to both of them.

We can moan & groan about Toyota's atrocious pricing but Toyota hasn't put a gun to our heads inorder to buy their products. Its a free market & if customers are so pissed off, they can vote with their wallet. I don't see why you should take it so personally. MFR will always price their products which brings them profit, they're a business & not a charity.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

+1.
Either they never sit in the back or have not experienced things like age and associated back pain.
Horrible rear seat comfort combined with average boot space and high bills - all qualities that should go against a taxi!

Why UK! Even here in India most of the 3 series & C class' used to be for chauffeur driven folks earlier.

Its hilarious to compare backseat comfort of a 3 series with the Camry. I know because I tried myself to convince the same before actually buying a 2021 Camry last year.

General thoughts below

I'm a hardcore BMW lover but in the interest of family, we bought a Camry last year. When I see my 70yr old dad & mid 60s mom along with my 2yr old sleeping cosily in the backseat, it gives me immense satisfaction. That's something which would be hard to replicate in a BMW given the ride quality & space at the back. I sat once in the backseat of our Camry on Bombay-Pune expressway & was just so happy with the ride! Ofcourse, in the city its fantastic too but I was blissfully surprised on the e-way ride as well. Moreover, 1st service on the vehicle was performed last month, the cost was 3k, yes 3k. Just an oil change service but still 3k! I agree the car might have been over priced by 10L but even then, no 30L vehicle will cost only 3k for 1st service!

Cheerio