[LaRoca]

Camry will see sales in the 150-200 units a month, at this price point

[Starfire]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Been discussed many times in the forum, still. Let me give my 2 paisa.

1. Camry is a family car in USA/Canada/GCC/Australia, but elsewhere it is a luxury car.

5. The 3 series and C class until the present gen were just driver's cars. But ended up being chauffeured in India. Ofcourse rear seat comfort is increasingly important with each generation, with the current 3er even getting a LWB version. The Camry/Superb are just family cars with no sporty pretensions and by virtue of the engine drivetrain layout are more spacious. So with their size and comfort oriented nature, they are VFM compared to the compact executive segment.

Hey there! I beg to differ with point number 1 in your above post and even find the highlighted sentence in point 1 and 5 a little contradictory as per the Indian car scenario. In India, except for the car enthusiast community, I think the moment Mr. ABC tells your average Joe Mr. XYZ that he bought a luxury car, Mr.XYZ will expect to hear either Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus or JLR. The moment they hear the word Toyota, they immediately imagine the words “budget or SUV” but not the word “Luxury”. I doubt size defines luxury in India, else a Nissan Sunny that offers more leg room than the F10 5 series would be considered more luxurious.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Starfire

Hey there! I beg to differ with point number 1 in your above post and even find the highlighted sentence in point 1 and 5 a little contradictory as per the Indian car scenario. In India, except for the car enthusiast community, I think the moment Mr. ABC tells your average Joe Mr. XYZ that he bought a luxury car, Mr.XYZ will expect to hear either Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus or JLR. The moment they hear the word Toyota, they immediately imagine the words “budget or SUV” but not the word “Luxury”. I doubt size defines luxury in India, else a Nissan Sunny that offers more leg room than the F10 5 series would be considered more luxurious.

Well, it feels contradictory because of the Indian scenario. Just because it is considered a luxury car in India and SE Asia doesn't remove the fact that it was basically designed as a family car. Cars that are compact or economy in the global level end up being executive cars in India. Skoda;a budget VFM brand in Europe became a stealth luxury brand in India. Corolla and Camry used to be economy cars for us while staying in Riyadh, the real Toyotas were the Cressidas and Crowns. Imagine our surprise when the Corolla was launched as an entry luxury executive car in India. But that is how it is.

Ofcourse, size doesn't equate to luxury. And the presence of the Tri-star on the bonnet (grille now) is the epitome of luxury. But then, the sales figures of the Fortuner and Superb should be telling something. Also Lexus bringing in the ES instead of the IS/GS to India.

[CarNerd]

Back to the Future: 😅

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by Iyencar

FINALLY a warranty of 8 years on the hybrid battery bringing us on par with the rest of the world.

The fine print:-

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by AKSarkar1

Thank you for the review, really enjoyed reading it!

Thanks

But getting the typical Indian consumer to part with 50 large ones is going to be really tough, at this price point consumers will go for other brands with a more niche brand equity.

I think the Camry is actually not a bad proposition for the typical Indian consumer, assuming this equates to a customer buying an entry luxury sedan/crossover.

From what I have understood so far, the Camry doesn't give you the typical luxury car maintenance or fuel bill shocks.
It gives you the feeling of that large, luxury car with some excellent niceties (city cruising experience is just out-of-this-world!).
It may not be able to compete in terms of the surgical fit & finish of a say, the Audi A4 when it comes to the knurled knobs, the placement of the gear lever, the sweet/tight-esque button clicks or the overall level of materials used in the cabin but the Camry is no slouch either. It packs in quite a few things that the competition doesn't have at this price point (read: ventilated seats, lumbar support, 9 airbags etc), not counting the Hybrid battery.

The Sales rep was telling me that he has seen mainly 2 types of Camry customers -
1) who have been loyal to the Toyota family
2) who are conscious of the understated yet sophisticated image that the Camry brings to the market

But yes, you are right - the conditioning of our Indian luxury car market (for e.g. upwards of 40 lakhs) and indirectly the customer mindset, is significantly influenced by the 3 German marquees.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Help me understand this pricing.

I live in the US, and we get a Camry for 23k USD, and a BMW 330i for 40k USD. Whereas, a Camry in India would cost me 41 lacs, and a BMW 330i would cost me 45 lacs. So, who in the right mind would spend such a fortune on a commoner car like Camry. Again, nothing against Camry, it does its job well, but for that price point you should be looking at luxury sedans.

In addition to what Member 'DicKy' said, couple other points:

1) The closest match in terms of features is the American Camry Hybrid XLE Trim + nearly $3,000 worth of packages (sun roof, JBL speakers, etc.) which comes to around $35,000. Not sure if this amount includes the various subsidies / benefits offered by the Govt. (In India there is no such thing for a Hybrid except there was a Rs. 70K rebate IIRC which is not included in the 41.7 sticker price).
This $35,000 American Camry still misses out on some features : reclining rear seats with the touchpad controls for ICE, AC, etc. + the sethji / Boss controls for the co-passenger seat on the side so the chauffeur / owner can move it easily.
So similarly equipped American Camry would be $35,000 + $2-3K for the additional gizmos.

2) The BMW 330i base trim in USA is the SportLine. In India it's the Sport. Like the missing letters, there are missing equipment bits too - like the 18" alloys on the SportLine v/s the 17" alloys on the Sport, no sports seats, etc.
Since BMW India keeps changing their specs very often, I am not sure about Apple Car Play and the other features like the digital dials (or analog-digital mix), etc.
So we're looking at $41,000 less the amount for the fewer gizmos.

In a nutshell : Toyota may just be giving better VFM here

That being said - the Camry has it's following. It is the vehicle of choice for business owners who want to keep it understated. It is the choice for those who want the famed Toyota peace of mind, good resale, comfort & low running costs. It is the choice for those who want some green credentials.
The 3 however is the car of choice for those who enjoy driving.

[C300]

5 million for a Camry
Its a mass market family car and the pricing is very optimistic.
Most of the modern cars (including Germans) are fairly reliable and it cant be the USP these days.

[andafunda]

Let me present an alternative use case to those talking about VFM w.r.t to the luxury car makers.

In this segment (INR 40-50L), one is starting to see many highly educated professionals (not businessmen) who work with MNCs, tech and digital companies (new age), private equity funds, banks, etc, and who wish for a relatively luxurious experience, without being outlandish. A fair share of these people do not want to own luxury German / European brands because of image issues and what the ownership will portray of them. These are the same people who will "settle" for VW vs Audi or a Toyota/Honda sedan vs a luxury German. I know of a $100M fund manager in Bangalore who still drives an old-gen Civic - many more like him.

The Camry is perfect for such people. This segment will grow rapidly in the next few years and kudos to Toyota for not increasing the price tag on the Camry.

[sunnysideup_]

Originally Posted by DicKy

...

2. Atleast till the last gen, the Camry in USA and the Camry we get were slightly different. In terms of features and interior appointments/quality.

...

I completely agree with everything you've had to say, DicKy! I just wanted to add that the Camry sold in India from 2012 (not particularly sure about the year) and its facelift till they released the new generation in 2019 weren't exactly a Camry. It was a Toyota Aurion rebadged as a Camry. The Toyota Aurion is sold in Australia and some other parts of Asia as well as a prestige, slightly more upscale version of the Camry.

Production of the Aurion stopped. I presumed they'd either bring the actual Camry back, or they might bring in the Avalon, but the Avalon would have been annihilated by the Lexus ES. At least with the Camry there's a sufficient price difference between it and the ES for cross-shoppers to consider, which the Avalon wouldn't have enabled.

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Help me understand this pricing.

I live in the US, and we get a Camry for 23k USD, and a BMW 330i for 40k USD. Whereas, a Camry in India would cost me 41 lacs, and a BMW 330i would cost me 45 lacs. So, who in the right mind would spend such a fortune on a commoner car like Camry. Again, nothing against Camry, it does its job well, but for that price point you should be looking at luxury sedans.

You should, yes and if you sit in any of even the entry level offerings from the Germans, whether its the new A class or the 2 series GC, the much higher quality is immediately felt. Everything, whether its the features, the driving characteristics, the steering, the buttons, the infotainment, pretty much any materials you can touch feel like they are from 2 segments above. Even the snob value and bragging rights you get are better.

However, what you do get instead is a sedan the size of the 5 series or E class SWB which is both spacious and doesn't stand out. There is no Honda Accord or Nissan Ultima or Kia k5 or Hyundai Sonata etc here for it to compete against. Therefore toyota manages to get away by pricing it very close to a segment above and the people who buy it do so because they don't want to stand out much and remain relatively low-key while still traveling in comfort. Toyota is cashing in on their monopoly and I would never buy a Camry here but I do understand why some people would want a car like that.

[bimmer1988]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Been discussed many times in the forum, still. Let me give my 2 paisa.

1. Camry is a family car in USA/Canada/GCC/Australia, but elsewhere it is a luxury car.


2. Atleast till the last gen, the Camry in USA and the Camry we get were slightly different. In terms of features and interior appointments/quality.


3. In USA, you could have a car model at a low base price, and you can double the price when you option it out. In India, most of the 30+ lakh cars come only in one top variant.

4. The Camry is CKD/SKD(?) in India and the taxes apply, plus it is in the topmost tax bracket by virtue of its size and engine size. No respite even for the hybrid system.


5. The 3 series and C class until the present gen were just driver's cars. But ended up being chauffeured in India. Ofcourse rear seat comfort is increasingly important with each generation, with the current 3er even getting a LWB version. The Camry/Superb are just family cars with no sporty pretensions and by virtue of the engine drivetrain layout are more spacious. So with their size and comfort oriented nature, they are VFM compared to the compact executive segment.

Inline.

1.Hmm, I would love to know in which countries Camry commands luxury car title. Even in Japan and UK, it is still a budget friendly full size sedan.

2. Sure, but I doubt the quality difference is that huge to warrant such a hefty price tag.

3. So, they come in top trim, but how does that justify the pricing ?

4. I get the taxation part, but the same applies to german companies as well. I feel this taxation point is moot given both germans and camry are gonna come here via similar routes.

5. With every generation, the 3 series has grown in its wheelbase. The G20 is pretty good on rear seat comfort. Moreover, you can always get a sedate drive from the germans if thats what you please, but at the very same time if you ever decide to put your foot down, you can also get the ride of your life. Point being, for the same value, with germans you are getting a car which can do what a camry would do plus something more for the occasional thrill. So, why would I ever invest in camry at same price point. Yes, if you offer me camry at 60 percent of the price value of germans, I may think about it.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Speaking from a part of the world where there is no vehicle manufacturing or even assembly (We do buses and some trucks at the most), a base Toyota Camry costs $44,000 NZD on road. The cheapest BMW 3 series Touring (Wagon) with a 2l diesel costs $86,000 (on road not included)! Is a BMW worth 2x more over a Camry? Aside from the badge upfront, I do not think so. Atleast, that's not what I see on the road, where the new Camry is everywhere and I may see one 3 series in a week! The other plus with the Toyota is they have crammed in 5 years of everything possible. Warranty, Roadside assist, Vehicle inspection and Fixed price service costs.

Yeah, the point here being Camry is not supposed to cost same as a german luxury brand, and pricing in your country reflects that (44k vs 86k), and rightly so. Again, the reason I brought this pricing argument up, is because I just feel folks in India are being taken for a ride by this atrocious pricing in name of Toyota reliability.

Originally Posted by andafunda

Let me present an alternative use case to those talking about VFM w.r.t to the luxury car makers.

In this segment (INR 40-50L), one is starting to see many highly educated professionals (not businessmen) who work with MNCs, tech and digital companies (new age), private equity funds, banks, etc, and who wish for a relatively luxurious experience, without being outlandish. A fair share of these people do not want to own luxury German / European brands because of image issues and what the ownership will portray of them. These are the same people who will "settle" for VW vs Audi or a Toyota/Honda sedan vs a luxury German. I know of a $100M fund manager in Bangalore who still drives an old-gen Civic - many more like him.

The Camry is perfect for such people. This segment will grow rapidly in the next few years and kudos to Toyota for not increasing the price tag on the Camry.

I am with you dude, that there is a market for Camry. What I am against is the pricing. It should never ever command pricing in the range of 40-50 lacs. The best you can pitch it is in 20-30 lac range. Its day light robbery if folks are paying 40-50 big ones for this car.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by sunnysideup_

I completely agree with everything you've had to say, DicKy! I just wanted to add that the Camry sold in India from 2012 (not particularly sure about the year) and its facelift till they released the new generation in 2019 weren't exactly a Camry. It was a Toyota Aurion rebadged as a Camry. The Toyota Aurion is sold in Australia and some other parts of Asia as well as a prestige, slightly more upscale version of the Camry.

Production of the Aurion stopped. I presumed they'd either bring the actual Camry back, or they might bring in the Avalon, but the Avalon would have been annihilated by the Lexus ES. At least with the Camry there's a sufficient price difference between it and the ES for cross-shoppers to consider, which the Avalon wouldn't have enabled.

True. But I believe it is the other way around. The Aurion is like the sporty/premium (depending on the market) version of the Camry. The first gen Aurion was sold in GCC markets as a premium sporty V6 Camry for people who didn't want the bigger Avalon, though I don't remember seeing the 2nd gen Aurion in GCC markets (the Camry we had)

The Camry having gone a lot more sporty thanks to the new TNGA platform may have lead to the phasing out of the Aurion, especially since the Aussie market got the V6 Camry. And yes, Toyota might be sacrificing the Avalon for the more profitable Lexus ES.

[MMV]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

First impression: darn good. Menacingly aggressive front fascia:-

Nice and crisp write up on car and TD.
On a separate note, front facing is all Toyota cars are menacing The material used and the way its fitted, even a slightest hit or careless take at an incline or big hump will lighten your pocket substantially. If you are ok to do makeshift tightening of front fascia incl bumper from an FNG, you may save some bucks, but it shows up, esp more as the car segment goes higher.

This particular body part seems to biggest money spinner for Toyota in sales and service revenue with rear bumper coming 2nd.

Fragile nature of front bumper does not seem to be a worry in non Japense cars esp European cars

[armaan_singh]

Originally Posted by bimmer1988

Yeah, the point here being Camry is not supposed to cost same as a german luxury brand, and pricing in your country reflects that (44k vs 86k), and rightly so. Again, the reason I brought this pricing argument up, is because I just feel folks in India are being taken for a ride by this atrocious pricing in name of Toyota reliability.

The Camry is basically a Lexus ES but with a T badge. So that should help it’s cause on the pricing front. Most people who are chauffeur driven For 40 big ones, I would personally just pick up the Superb L&K and get the best of both worlds.