[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by gururajrv

I’ve said it more than once and I’m going to say it again - this decade will notice domination across segments by Tata & even Mahindra! Maruti has lost the battle as their strategy clearly indicates lighter, frugal cars while Tata, Mahindra are providing safer, performance & frugal oriented cars. MSIL has a lot of catching upto do even if they start today, might take another 2-3 years before they earn what they’ve lost!

I think it is too early to write Maruti off. If anything they have only bounced back whenever people thought they were doomed. This battle is TATA's to loose. While more people are drawn towards handsome TATA SUV's, TATA will be in big trouble if they don't pull up their socks in terms of reliability and after sales. I really hope TATA covers all the areas and Maruti comes out stronger. Its always better to have healthy competition than just monopoly.

[rkph96]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I`m not sure what to make of this then.

I think this includes JLR whereas the original post is solely for TATA cars. JLR sales, revenue and profit/loss hugely impacts TATA motors performance ( financially).

[Electromotive]

TaMo should make hay while the sun shines. This moment in the limelight is gonna be short lived. As the onslaught of EVs from the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans start, TaMo will be pounded back to the sub 7% market share, where they rightfully belong. Such is TaMo's competence in engineering and manufacturing and the oh-so-great company culture.

JLR is a white elephant that will wipe out whatever little profit the domestic business is making. Sales are declining YoY, the new RR looks like a fat slug and whatever brand equity they had is rapidly eroding.

Even after creating the iPace they lost traction making headway into the premium EV market and now it is too late. They are going to continue to lose market share.

People valuing TaMo shares at 500 a piece have a nasty surprise waiting for them.

[Carma2017]

I am surprised by the thread title and the newspaper article therein. When did ever Suzuki become a high profit margin company in terms of per car profit? They were always a high volume, low profit margin per car maker. In fact we have threads that detail how Toyota makes more profit by selling less vehicles than Suzuki.

In spite of the good work TATA has done, it is worrisome that it's margins per car are only at a level slightly better than Suzuki whilst volumes are much lesser. And this is the story when the product mix for TATA is very much loaded towards the higher margin segments (read 10 lac+ cars).

[rsidd]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

JLR is a white elephant that will wipe out whatever little profit the domestic business is making. Sales are declining YoY, the new RR looks like a fat slug and whatever brand equity they had is rapidly eroding.

Some history here: Tata bought JLR from Ford in 2008, for about $2.3 billion, which was about half what Ford had paid to acquire the two brands. People were skeptical but Tata turned it around to profitability by 2011, and it stayed profitable until 2016-17 (it was Tata's profit engine throughout that time). While the brand has been struggling a little there is no more reason to call it a white elephant today than there was in 2008. The industry is moving towards EVs and JLR seems well placed for that future.

[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by rsidd

Some history here: Tata bought JLR from Ford in 2008, for about $2.3 billion,... While the brand has been struggling a little there is no more reason to call it a white elephant today than there was in 2008. The industry is moving towards EVs and JLR seems well placed for that future.

I am well aware of JLR's history, and I wonder how much of the profit in past years was accounting magic. Remember the huge loss they declared in 2019? Accounting magic. And even if JLR were profitable and carried TaMo in bad times, that was then, JLR is a liability now.

The desirability of JLR vehicles is sinking fast. The nouveau riche don't want a JLR vehicle. Opinion shapers/influencers on social media advice against JLR products and with good reason. Even the new vehicles are still riddled with issues. I had hope for the iPace since it is manufactured by Magna Steyr but it too has numerous issues from what I have read.

In the face of poor customer opinion and a fast changing EV landscape, JLR is dying. Jaguar is as good as dead already; given the direction LR is going, it will follow soon. Neither BMW nor Ford had any luck with JLR, I don't think it will be any different for TaMo.

[petrogeek]

It is easy to dismiss homegrown brands such as TATA and MAHINDRA when compared to a low cost volume player like Maruti, feature rich middle of the road brands such as Hyundai, Kia etc. If you look at it TATA and MAHINDRA are two players who are present both in the CV and the PV segment in India. One must appreciate their efforts in staying relevant in both segments and also bringing in revenues!. Personally for me, I appreciate the efforts of these two players in giving product offerings which can compete with the others. Their sales volumes are pretty steady though they may not be market leaders.

[Carma2017]

Originally Posted by petrogeek

It is easy to dismiss homegrown brands such as TATA and MAHINDRA when compared to a low cost volume player like Maruti, feature rich middle of the road brands such as Hyundai, Kia etc. If you look at it TATA and MAHINDRA are two players who are present both in the CV and the PV segment in India. One must appreciate their efforts in staying relevant in both segments and also bringing in revenues!. Personally for me, I appreciate the efforts of these two players in giving product offerings which can compete with the others. Their sales volumes are pretty steady though they may not be market leaders.

When we speak about TATA and Mahindra, one should not forget the role of JLR and Ssangyong in upgradation of engineering capabilities of the 2 parent companies. Both TATA and Mahindra were always stronger in CVs traditionally. But TATA more than even Mahindra, really reaped huge benefits from JLR acquisition.

[Shashwat.75]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

TaMo will be pounded back to the sub 7% market share, where they rightfully belong. Such is TaMo's competence in engineering and manufacturing and the oh-so-great company culture.

I would love to know what makes you makes you say that they 'rightly' belong to sub 7% market share.

I'm aware that their service is a deal breaker for many but so is the safety for Maruti-hyundai-kia cars!. And going by this analogy neither Maruti (selling unsafe and relatively outdated cars despite being the market leaders) nor hyundai-kia ( selling second grade - using lower grade platforms (seltos,i20, venue,etc)) deserve to be at market positions they are!

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

The desirability of JLR vehicles is sinking fast. The nouveau riche don't want a JLR vehicle. Opinion shapers/influencers on social media advice against JLR products and with good reason. Even the new vehicles are still riddled with issues. I had hope for the iPace since it is manufactured by Magna Steyr but it too has numerous issues from what I have read.

.

Sorry to say, but that's terrible analysis.

Irrespective of what or who on social media has to say, if you think the Range Rover isn't up there on the desirability scale, then your spending time reading the wrong book!

JLR was doing tremendously well till they decided to build scale on Jaguar and restrict Rang Rover to niche, rather than go the other way round. XE, XF came at a time when sedans were dying a slow death, and those massive investments had to be written off.

Thierry Billore now has the right idea, Jaguar is a low volume brand, more akin Bentley/Porsche. RR & Land Rover will build profitable volumes.

[GrammarNazi]

Tata has always served a very different set of customers in the market. Their USP used to be well built & spacious cars with good features, at VFM prices. While their weakness was their occasional quality issues & occasional cheatful attitude by service centers. Now, TATA has retained robust build quality, spaciousness, features and replaced VFM factor with well designed cars.

Maruti has always had a different USP. They make decent looking cars, which largely are mechanically reliable and have a wide service network. It's still the only company that has a decent MPV in the Ertiga. It's WagonR is still an irreplaceable product. Although they got arrogant & ignored developing a Diesel engine, they've still got a great CNG line-up.

The general public may not realise this, but as BHPians we can surely distinguish the fact that both companies are incomparable in too many ways.

[dijkstra]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I`m not sure what to make of this then.

Tata Motors loss widens to 4415 CR (Nov 1 2021).

Attachment 2227421

Besides the JLR point (which is the primary reason here), these are two different metrics. There's operating profit and there's net profit. Operating profit is the part of revenue a company keeps after taking into account the cost of making and selling a product, as part of their core business. To arrive at net profit, you'd usually subtract taxes and occasionally other deductions, from the operating profit.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by dijkstra

Besides the JLR point (which is the primary reason here), these are two different metrics. There's operating profit and there's net profit. Operating profit is the part of revenue a company keeps after taking into account the cost of making and selling a product, as part of their core business. To arrive at net profit, you'd usually subtract taxes and occasionally other deductions, from the operating profit.

What do you make of this? I am not educated enough to make a deduction being a biologist.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

What do you make of this? I am not educated enough to make a deduction being a biologist.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I`m not sure what to make of this then.

Tata Motors loss widens to 4415 CR (Nov 1 2021).

Hi Kosfactor,

Weren't the previous replies helpful?

Is there anything about the current Tata domestic performance that doesn't convince you? Just asking, perhaps understanding this might help resolve the doubts better!

Originally Posted by GJ01

Both the articles are correct. The article that you refer to is for Tata Motors as a whole - Tata Motors (India) Passenger Vehicles (PV) and the JLR brand together. The article quoted in the OP specifically calls out Tata Motors PV division.
Trust that clarifies.

Originally Posted by Geta

This is because of poor performance of JLR (which generally accounts for upto 75% of Tata motors revenue) in Q2 of FY22.
TaMo is doing very well and generating profits in the Indian market, without doubt.

[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by shortbread

1. Sorry to say, but that's terrible analysis.

2. if you think the Range Rover isn't up there on the desirability scale, then your spending time reading the wrong book!


3.Thierry Billore now has the right idea, Jaguar is a low volume brand, more akin Bentley/Porsche. RR & Land Rover will build profitable volumes.

1. Not so much an analysis as empirical observations.

2. Did I say that? I said their desirability is decreasing. There is a distinction.

3. JLR management is reactionary. Jaguar is not selling well so they are trying to pivot it into a super premium brand like Bentley. Experts are skeptical of this move.

All said, we will know how their ambitious plans turn out in a couple of years. I feel they have lost the game and are a drain on the limited resources of TaMo which itself is a mediocre company and will probably falter in the face of upcoming competition, as they always have.