[StopUnderrides]

Originally Posted by Rohan265

Even a distracted or drowsy driver has sufficient time to react and avoid the collision. As you have correctly pointed out, such sensors will only work if the driver is somehow incapacitated for more than 5 seconds.

By definition, there’s no guarantee that a sleepy diver will wake up necessarily after 5 seconds. Further just waking is not enough. It takes time to grasp the situation and react

Drivers in cities have even lesser time than that considering all the sight obstructions we have on the road such as parked vehicles and structures blocking the view at intersections, vehicles overtaking too late, and so on. A system like AEB will help in reducing the time lost in driver reaction (~1 sec), but won't prevent a crash entirely if the car simply does not have enough distance to brake.

Since kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity, reduction in speed might be enough in city conditions to convert a fatality into injury or a serious injury into minor injury

To your point of passengers not wearing a seat belt: if people want to buy a car with ADAS and yet be ignorant enough to not wear a seat belt, it’s clearly not technology that’s at fault. This is the same category as “child is safest in mother’s lap “ etc. The laws of physics do not care about emotions or ignorance.

Since you are a crash investigation expert-I have always wondered how FCW will react in a close cut overtaking manoeuvre. Braking in that situation will be disastrous.

Lastly the username is because I had a near miss underride with a garbage truck at dusk near CBI flyover in Bangalore when suddenly street lights went out and my headlights were not on. I didn’t realise they were off since the street lights were on

[Rohan265]

Originally Posted by StopUnderrides

By definition, there’s no guarantee that a sleepy diver will wake up necessarily after 5 seconds. Further just waking is not enough. It takes time to grasp the situation and react

Since kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity, reduction in speed might be enough in city conditions to convert a fatality into injury or a serious injury into minor injury

To your point of passengers not wearing a seat belt: if people want to buy a car with ADAS and yet be ignorant enough to not wear a seat belt, it’s clearly not technology that’s at fault. This is the same category as “child is safest in mother’s lap “ etc. The laws of physics do not care about emotions or ignorance.

I agree with all the points you have stated. ADAS as a system is beneficial. People on this forum will get the maximum benefit of ADAS as most of us do wear a seatbelt. But, the population as a whole won't be benefitted and most will just turn it off as a nuisance. My concern is that beneficial systems such as ADAS won't go into mainstream production if our population won't accept them. Airbags got accepted because people who don't wear a belt don't get to see the harm of airbags on a daily basis. ADAS will be different as most will experience things such as FCW, AEB on a daily basis. We see how people find workarounds for the seatbelt reminder. ADAS won't be any different.

Originally Posted by StopUnderrides

Since you are a crash investigation expert-I have always wondered how FCW will react in a close cut overtaking manoeuvre. Braking in that situation will be disastrous.

I am no expert yet. Still learning. Regarding FCWs, I believe there is research which says that the radars used for FCWs wont be beneficial in close overtakes as the radar has a range of 120deg or so.

Originally Posted by StopUnderrides

Lastly the username is because I had a near miss underride with a garbage truck at dusk near CBI flyover in Bangalore when suddenly street lights went out and my headlights were not on. I didn’t realise they were off since the street lights were on

Good to know that you came out safely from that scenario. Underrides are perhaps the biggest danger for car occupants as almost all passive safety features fail in an underride. Most of the multiple fatality car crashes that we see in the news are underrides. That is why I feel that the BNVSAP should include underride crash tests. A study by the IIHS has stated that even cars in the US are not safe in underrides. The biggest challenge to solve underrides is that you need to install a strong underride protection bar in trucks, which is hard to regulate considering that many truck drivers in our country remove these bars. ADAS might help immensely in preventing or reducing the severity of such crashes.

[drshajul]

As this discussion started with the XUV700 ADAS system, just like to point out the limitations that they have mentioned in the owners manual. I have just attached the limitations mentioned. There may be a learning curve on using ADAS on Indian road for all new users

BTW the whole owners manual is available online here or as PDF here (Mahindra XUV700 Review).

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by drshajul

As this discussion started with the XUV700 ADAS system, just like to point out the limitations that they have mentioned in the owners manual. I have just attached the limitations mentioned. There may be a learning curve on using ADAS on Indian road for all new users
.

Thanks for sharing. Looking at the implementations I do not understand what M&M meant when they said they have adapted it specially for India. Most of the use cases listed in the limitations are what was the offering by international OEMs a decade ago. So this is not so modern as claimed.

[skarthiksr]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Thanks for sharing. Looking at the implementations I do not understand what M&M meant when they said they have adapted it specially for India.

Intel CEO(Mobileye is part of Intel) touches a bit on this area of developing India-specific ADAS on this talk about developing ADAS for XUV 700. Listen from 22:23 here:

https://youtu.be/QRY214s1a7U?t=1342

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by skarthiksr

Intel CEO(Mobileye is part of Intel) touches a bit on this area of developing India-specific ADAS on this talk about developing ADAS for XUV 700. Listen from 22:23 here:

Apart from the message that they are providing solutions for M&M and some differences in the environment in India, there was no other mention of what exactly they are developing specifically for India. Of course at that level the CEO is not expected to dive into the details though. Things like not being able to detect second leading vehicle, long truck with raised loading area, following lanes in curves and being able to correctly associate objects on neighboring lanes etc were problem statements a few years ago and I am surprised these are still listed as limitations. Perhaps if someone could throw light on that it would be great.

[varman742]

Voted for 'No'.

I have not driven any vehicle with ADAS but I can comment on the cruise control. I recently completed 2000 KMs trip in my Safari from Pune to Coorg and had multiple opportunities to use Cruise Control, especially on Karnataka roads. I was uncomfortable to let automation drive the vehicle on my behalf. Somehow I prefer manually controlling acceleration, braking and lane management. Add to that, when in cruise control mode, I missed the pleasure of driving on beautiful open roads using the accelerator pedal and felt as if I was just a passive contributor.

The Indian driving conditions are just too dynamic and its very difficult to predict how the others on the road will behave even on highways with marked lanes. So if I am keeping ADAS on, then either I will be too alert (and under pressure) or I will end up being too casual thinking that ADAS will be handle the braking at right time, both defeating the purpose.

[gary]

Can't vote yet, but would have gone for No.

We are far from there. It would work well in some simulations, and may not in others. But that would not be the biggest problem. My biggest worry is it would hold you back from taking decisive actions when when placed in a tricky situation.

Cruise control and ADAS are very different things. The comparison is unfair. Cruise control does not stop you from doing anything, ADAS does. Therein lies the catch.

[vvivek85]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZqnb-D_bJ4

I am not sure if this video was already shared, if so mods kindly delete it. This video is in Tamil and seems to be very informative on ADAS, for the betterment of others in the forum, I will just give a gist on this video. The YouTuber claims to be a technician in Mercedes, he seems to have test drove XUV 7OO. He explains his experience with AEB (Auto Emergency Braking), he was in the process of cutting lanes during an overtake, by the time he was in the process of returning back to his original lane, he was close to Dzire (But per video not too close) as a result AEB activated immediately and reduced the speed from 80 to 60 within a second. At this time the car rattled like anything which gave him a bitter experience as things were happening when he was not prepared for it.

The next feature he tested was Lane Keep Assist (LKA), while he was driving in the right lane at one point in time he had to switch to left lane as there was a barricade in the right lane. When he tried to swerve left, for a moment the car didn't allow him to do so instead it counter-steered, he had put some effort for the car to move to the next lane.

He also talks about the experience which he is having in Mercedes where customers are asking for ways and means to turn off the driver-assist feature.

In a nutshell, I have voted for a big NO. I echo his words, Technology is always good but is that technology making life easy for me or not is a big question. Especially in a country like India where traffic discipline is a big ZERO, these kinds of technology will not assist the driver but hinder them.

[Venkatesh]

ADAS will be a big thing in 4-5 years in India: Tata Elxsi.

- Cost of radar, lidar sensors for ADAS has drastically reduced
- Improving road infrastructure to allow better use of ADAS
- Low public awareness, legislation are still challenges for ADAS adoption.



Infrastructure improving, but some issues remain

Legislation is yet another factor that could slow down the progress of ADAS. “Legislation is going to be key here,” he said. For instance, regulators need to figure out whether responsibility should be assigned to the driver or the vehicle manufacturer, in case of an accident. “That is still under debate, it’s not resolved yet,” said Shaju.

ADAS hardware ready, software needs to evolve

software needs to improve, using machine learning and artificial intelligence (AI), for the ADAS systems to perform better. And for that, data is key. “All the AI algorithms are as strong as the data collected. So, we need to have a lot more (driving) data captured. The data, then, needs to be fed into our AI algorithms for the system to learn and adapt to different situations,” commented Shaju.

Full Article

[Benoit]

For a country with chaotic road users who do not care about following traffic rules, ADAS will turn bonkers. This is not for India.

[lsjey]

Originally Posted by vvivek85

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=ZZqnb-D_bJ4

IMHO ADAS will prevent rash driving like what this you-tuber did. While he claims that there was a lot of gap between the cars, it is easy to see that this was not the case. He even accepts that he did not maintain enough distance. He was not driving safely. That is the bottom line. Blaming ADAS for not driving safely is not acceptable by me.

I just wish that instead of speed regulators in yellow board vehicles, if ADAS and AEBs are installed, much of the rash driving incidents will be avoided.

Regards,
lsjey

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by vvivek85

This video is in Tamil and seems to be very informative on ADAS, for the betterment of others in the forum, I will just give a gist on this video. The YouTuber claims to be a technician in Mercedes, he seems to have test drove XUV 7OO. He explains his experience with AEB (Auto Emergency Braking), he was in the process of cutting lanes during an overtake, by the time he was in the process of returning back to his original lane, he was close to Dzire (But per video not too close) as a result AEB activated immediately and reduced the speed from 80 to 60 within a second. At this time the car rattled like anything which gave him a bitter experience as things were happening when he was not prepared for it.

The next feature he tested was Lane Keep Assist (LKA), while he was driving in the right lane at one point in time he had to switch to left lane as there was a barricade in the right lane. When he tried to swerve left, for a moment the car didn't allow him to do so instead it counter-steered, he had put some effort for the car to move to the next lane.

In a nutshell, I have voted for a big NO. I echo his words, Technology is always good but is that technology making life easy for me or not is a big question. Especially in a country like India where traffic discipline is a big ZERO, these kinds of technology will not assist the driver but hinder them.

AEB

1. He drove like a bonehead.
2. AEB did what it is designed to do.
3. It is not Mahindra or the technology's problem if people don't understand the difference between safely changing lanes and diving onto the path of another car.

Lane-keeping assist:

1. This particular feature is a cause for concern even in developed countries. Many companies have issues in making this work consistently as designed. It works great in properly marked lanes inside the city or motorways but is kind of patchy in dual carriage country roads.
2. I don't know about the implementation in the XUV-700. If the option is available then, turn off LKA if it doesn't work properly.
3. Consider a driver who doses off momentarily while cruising on the highway and the car veers off towards the shoulder. LKA should ideally be able to warn the driver audibly and by vibrating the steering wheel. If the car has driver attention monitoring then, it can do the job too. Does the XUV-700 do either of these?

Originally Posted by lsjey

IMHO ADAS will prevent rash driving like what this you-tuber did. While he claims that there was a lot of gap between the cars, it is easy to see that this was not the case. He even accepts that he did not maintain enough distance. He was not driving safely. That is the bottom line. Blaming ADAS for not driving safely is not acceptable by me.

I just wish that instead of speed regulators in yellow board vehicles, if ADAS and AEBs are installed, much of the rash driving incidents will be avoided.

Regards,
lsjey

Well said. ADAS systems are under various stages of development and I would say it's in a state where many people in India would see it as an infringement of their driving style rather than a safety system designed to support them.

The Achille's heel is the lack of standardisation of ADAS systems. Different companies do it several different ways and the end-users will be confused. The concern will be amplified when it is done by companies who are still learning how to build a car with decent quality.

I used to hate Auto Start-Stop systems. I'll turn that thing off before driving. However, our most recent car (a Mazda) has implemented it very well. The transition is very smooth. A simple metric that shows the time for which iStop has been enabled and how many extra Kms it enables the car to travel is actually difficult to dismiss.

Likewise, I hope people will warm up to ADAS.

P.S: Many years ago, that lane change antic would have looked normal to me but not after I learnt the difference between driving fast and looking like I drive fast.

[SaiSW]

Oh NO! India, imo, is not even close to being ready for an ADAS system, maybe an exception can be made for the access controlled mega expressways we have, like the mumbai pune expressway but other than that? No chance.

In chaotic country like this, filled with mindless autorickshaws and bikers, who care more about saving 10 seconds off reaching their destination, than their own lives - if a company successfully managed to develop an ADAS system that works perfectly, then they deserve a Nobel prize.

[iceman07]

Originally Posted by audioholic

I have had my career in this domain so let me share my personal views. Considering the premium charged by the MG Astor for the ADAS kit is less than 1L rupee, even though it has a much elaborate system compared to the XUV700 I feel this should be the case with all cars at least more than 10L rupee where the buyers can choose these features at least as an option. Of course for those who still believe in manual transmissions and mechanical systems, they can opt out of ADAS. But for those who want to have it they must definitely be given an option.

Due to my presence out of India for a while I havent actually tried out the systems in the XUV and the Astor. But I am curious to try it out and compare that to what I work on. If manufacturers can make ADAS systems for the Chinese market with chaotic traffic, its not impossible for India. What is currently on offer is none of these fancy AI/ML stuff but a rather determinate and mathematical system which is predictable. Its also possible to adapt the behaviour to suit our conditions better, like reduce the intensity of braking so that the vehicle wont get rear ended and things like that.

Coming to the readiness, there is never going to be a day when our traffic gets so organised we can then call it ready for automated driving. It would be the other way round. As a starter, I would really like commercial vehicles to come with simple autonomous emergency brakes(AEB). Nothing more than that. Followed by passenger cars after that. These two changes would lead to prevention of accidents on the road due to improper distance, sleeping at the wheel, crashing into parked trucks and so. Even if the system can reduce the impact speed from 100kmph to 40kmph, that would also bear an influence on fatalities.

The comfort features like Adaptive cruise control can follow later. But once this starts to become mainstream, it will also become more usable. In Germany almost every commercial vehicle is equipped with at least a cruise control and AEB and on the highway, you have a constant stream of these vehicles doing 100kmph and maintaining consistent distance. That itself will improve the highway driving experience. So when we are slowly getting world class infrastructure already available in India, why not world class equipment?

And in 2021 if someone claims cruise control is still unusable in India or not a necessity, then I can only say that they havent driven enough highways nor doing it right. Some people set too high speeds on CC and when they cant maintain it, they complain that its unusable. However thats not how you use CC. You set speed to the average speed on the road like 80-100kmph and then accelerate manually when required. In the Crysta I think even my dad can manage extended periods of CC use which he has loved.

Completely agree with you, we got to start somewhere, now most toads have markings and I think these features will be a boon on long drives with moderate truck or car traffic. If the question is that if this works inside City may not be , but that why they can be turned off!!
Banning them entirely will be like banning computers say 4 or 5 decades ago we would never see improvement.
I'm sure competition ( to Mahindra and MG) will bring in ADAS and more number of such vehicles will make roads a lot safer.
Additionally the human inside is the brain , he can choose when to opt for emergency braking or when not to, it's about how we use technology to keep ourself and our machines safe.