[VKumar]

Gentlemen

I have been trying to avoid getting into this discussion, but I guess we need to understand that bureaucracy is a lot more than a relic of colonialism, or some rusted system. Looking at the kind of complex society we live in, the poverty figures, and depth of penetration of government schemes - these people work day in and day out to get things right. I belong to a family where both law makers and enforcers can be found in ample number, be it armed forces or civil servants or judicial service officers. There is a lot more than what meets the eye. At least from what I saw in last 3 months, I have a firm belief that it is indeed these people who are the backbone of this country.

Originally Posted by Lowflyer23

the units are asked for travel details and fuel expenses to the last drop. On the other hand we have these babus getting luxury vehicles which as we all know will be used more for their private use than official work

I believe that you need to visit private schools situated in cantonment areas, just to count the number of green Gypsys and black Ambassadors coming to drop the kids to school and pick them up. A few trips to market and school is a norm, everywhere. BTW, I am very strictly against the 'Sahayak System', doesn't matter what role the person is hired for, officials need to learn, and at times teach their families too - to have the human regards. That practice is a typical relic of slave system and colonialism, where the British Indian Army officials had Indians for this job.

Here in Delhi, even retired bureaucrats use Govt. official vehicles (mostly crystas) daily, the sad reality of our country

Can't be officially/legally done, until a car is sent by the official to ferry a retired official, or the official is an adviser or consultant to any department, a Govt. vehicle can't be allotted. All you need is to file an RTI about the vehicle usage, take it to court and get recovery implemented on the ex-official. The Ex-IAS officers I know, all of them drive their own cars these days until on some job assigned by the Union or state Government.

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

white Fortuner who he is confronting for illegal mining

These officers enjoy enough immunity during the discharge of their duties that they can get the Fortuner, along with the owner; in the right place on just a statement, even written order follows later.

Example: Durga Shakti Nagpal, IAS, made a massive crackdown on mining mafia only. It's just that the mining mafia is such a powerful body, that they get the officers transferred within hours or days at times. Because, appointment or dismissal rests with UPSC, but transfers and appointments-at-position rests in the hands of the State Govt.

A similarly aged IT company executive drives swanky BMW on company lease while we expect and wish that the collector who passed one of the toughest civil sevice exams in the world to drive a wagon R to discharge his duties.

Well said, a 40 Y.O. executive of some IT company is growing well in life if he owns a Mercedes. But if a DM buys one, he becomes corrupt in the eyes of everyone.

Note; There are rotten Babus everywhere, but it's getting too difficult to .motivate and retain the few good ones. We need good collectors for good governance regardless of the Governing party.
If any thing, we should direct our anger towards uneducated history sheeted corrupt politicos who run 5 yr mints rather than well qualified officials commuting their career lives to service. .

Rotten people are everywhere. Even in private sector too, I have dealt a lot with purchase/acquisition managers and all, I have seen it all in and out quite well. Majority of Indians don't leave a chance to grab the cash, no matter what seat they are occupying.

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

As much as we love to witch hunt babus, the Indian bureaucracy undeniably runs this large country, regardless of, and despite, the status of Govt. The fact that it can be run better is another story altogether, a debate for another day.

Well said, it is these hard working bureaucrats who are in-charge of keeping the show going. It is easier to sit behind a keyboard and comment on their working style. But getting into what they have to take care of, right from base to the top, that takes the toll on a person in every manner, be it their health, family life, or even professional life. They are not given 5 day working, they are not given fixed working hours, they have to take care of the situation 24X7, if there is instability, an IAS or IPS can't say he or she was dining or sleeping - they 'have' to be on their heels, with no option of denial.

It's not that this 12-15 crores are going to tilt the scales against the COVID fight singularly

The issue is entirely the timing, and of course the selection of vehicle too. Innova Crysta would have easily sufficed here.

I want the Govt jobs to become so aspirational and elusive that IITs and IIMs don't brain drain out and instead fight for top Govt jobs.

There is already a large number of IIT and IIM pass-out grads joining the civil services, the landscape is rapidly changing now. Ex. MR. Gaurav Aggarwal (IIM-A pass out, ex-Citi bank trader)

Bullet proof bureacracy will change this nation faster than politicians can ever do.

Political class needs to change before that. The assembly or elected executive passes the bills or schemes or laws, the permanent executive or IAS, IPS etc have to implement it. These two need to work hand in hand, the bureaucracy can't do anything against the powers to be, funds come from there only after all.

Let them celebrate this one Carnival.

It will be better if the celebration lasts long enough too.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

if a private company does not make a profit, the person in charge gets fired. If a private company does not show growth quarter-on-quarter, and year-on-year, the person in charge gets fired. If a private company detects illegalities, the person in charge gets fired. Yes, there are errant private companies that get away with the above, but oh please good god, don't tell me that private enterprises are in any way comparable to the sloth that masquerades as bureaucracy in India. And stakeholders in a company, whether internal or shareholders, can hold the CEO accountable for not delivering. No such process exists in bureaucracy.

An officer can also be removed, suspended, and dismissed. Every single event goes into their ACR too. They are immune in discharge of their duties, but that is questionable in the court. It is easier to hold an officer responsible than a CEO, all you need is to file an RTI and then approach the right person.

Secondly, private entities work with the motive of profit, Government is the one whose job is welfare. A private company will pay you for the service you deliver, the Government will pay to the poor and provide them free rations, so that they can come to work at your house every morning. A private company will not tell the people living in mud houses to build proper houses, Government does, and transfers the money via DBT too.

Why is it so that government officials normally receive the shorter end of the stick? You sit in your drawing room and expect the DM to stand on the river bank when there is a heavy rainfall or flood. If a residential building collapses at 2 am, DM and SP are expected to reach there at 2:30 and take action against the culprits by 2:35.

If one wants to make comparisons, then make the service standards equal. Nobody would like it if the District administration and police department starts getting off on Saturdays and Sundays. These are the men who sit in their offices on Holi and Diwali. Shortcomings are there, I agree. But just like the Defence forces assure the internal and external security of the nation, these men also keep working in keeping things right and assuring that law and order is maintained. If we have to make comparisons, then service standards shall also be compared, manpower quantity shall also be compared - a BPO employee needs an Innova to pick and drop in burning summer and biting winter of Delhi, but a constable is required to ride to his post for his duty, and even work extended hours in VIP duty.

When you people draw comparisons and at times put an umbrella question mark on the competence of Government officials. Do you take into account the co-operation by public? When a lone, on duty-constable in a picket, with just a laathi, is expected to go and confront pistol carrying goons, how do you people find it justified?

Just like everyone, I too find the Carnival a bit over the top, Crysta would have been better. But one needs to understand that the kind of work profile these officers on the ground have, takes a lot of toll on their physical and mental well being, they deserve comfortable rides, and I see nothing wrong in them being given Carnival too. Additionally, the car of a DM/DC can't be compared to that of a Joint Secretary or even the Chief or Cabinet Secretary, one does the duty of covering entire district as a field, and other does mostly home-secretariat runs on the nice roads of National or State capitals.

[SR7]

The motor vehicles purchased by the Government are exempt from almost all taxes - so when we assume the Carnivals cost around 30 lakhs per unit, the actual figure will more likely be the ex-factory price before GST (also factor in a manufacturer discount), hence the price paid by the Government would be around 55-60% of the OTR price of the vehicle. The Carnivals would have cost the Government ~16-17 lakhs per unit if it was the base version. A few Tucsons were procured for senior IPS officials (ADGP rank) in 2017 by the TN Government - the price the cars were procured by the government from Hyundai (factory is in Sriperumbudur and Tucson CKDs assembled here) was ~13 lakhs per unit whereas the OTR price of the same variant was ~22 lakhs.

[sunilch]

I guess there is too much of hooplah in this thread because people see 'Carnival' as opposed to any other common workhorse.

As many have pointed out, these officers deserve a good car for the responsibility they carry on their shoulders. We already see many Crystas and don't bat an eye lid. I have seen local Municipal Corporation officers having Govt provided Sedans (that normally cost around 10-12 lacs OTR) and drivers to ferry them around. Here we are talking about an IAS level officer who is usually in-charge of a full district.

This to me simply seems like a good deal that Kia has pulled off. Carnival being made in the same state has also contributed to it. Plus a lot of taxes are collected by the State Govt so they don't pay the OTR that we pay in such cases. Warriors need to understand that after heavy discounts for such a bulk deal, a Crysta woun't cost a lot less to the department. Maybe the vehicle is not abuse friendly but so is the case with Ertiga. And we know that Delhi and Mumbai Traffic police use a fleet of Ertiga's for routine patrols.

And BTW, as part of the job profile - these guys too are accountable for every INR that they receive. You just need to know how and where to ask for questions if you really want an answer. Otherwise, happy fighting the war over the keyboard.

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by VKumar

I believe that you need to visit private schools situated in cantonment areas, just to count the number of green Gypsys and black Ambassadors coming to drop the kids to school and pick them up. A few trips to market and school is a norm, everywhere. BTW, I am very strictly against the 'Sahayak System', doesn't matter what role the person is hired for, officials need to learn, and at times teach their families too - to have the human regards. That practice is a typical relic of slave system and colonialism, where the British Indian Army officials had Indians for this job.


Can't be officially/legally done, until a car is sent by the official to ferry a retired official, or the official is an adviser or consultant to any department, a Govt. vehicle can't be allotted. All you need is to file an RTI about the vehicle usage, take it to court and get recovery implemented on the ex-official. The Ex-IAS officers I know, all of them drive their own cars these days until on some job assigned by the Union or state Government.

I apologize to you and all esteemed members for taking this thread off topic, but It seems like you haven't seen army up close after the 90s. Fewer private schools exist in army cantonments these days and stricter policies have drastically reduced family usage of official vehicles.

Nowadays, even most senior officers are afraid to send the official car for any family member in their absence as it takes minutes for such news to spread and soon the officer is facing the defence court of enquiry. A babu whom I see almost daily (retired IAS) uses a Govt. Of India Crysta everyday and good luck filing an RTI and thinking all this would stop, the report/complaint if any would come across the table of an equally "honest" bureaucrat who just might be a part of the lobby and this so called retired official walks clean. Now, don't get me wrong I have seen a lot of honest and uncorrupt Officers of the civil services who have even laid their lives fighting local crime groups and several mafias. But the sad thing is that I have seen a lot more corrupt ones too.

Talking about the sahayak system again is an indication of your limited knowledge of the army (no offence). The term "sahayak" was changed decades ago and the army personal with the officer is now called his buddy. The buddy doesn't mop the floors or change the diapers of the officer's child as is told by the civilians, these all are just pure myths. The buddy is a term for someone who stands along with the officer throughout his service (thick and thin) and is discharged important duties like coordination of different offices, arranging transport, managing logistics, ensuring well being of the family before the officer and his buddy leave for field postings, etc.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by SR7

... A few Tucsons were procured for senior IPS officials (ADGP rank) in 2017 by the TN Government - the price the cars were procured by the government from Hyundai (factory is in Sriperumbudur and Tucson CKDs assembled here) was ~13 lakhs per unit whereas the OTR price of the same variant was ~22 lakhs.

Ultimately the taxpayer is losing out. Government is not saving money by not paying the tax. It is like the car company owes you money and in lieu of paying that back, it subtracts the amount from the total to be paid by you.

Why not implement a reward system based on performance - bigger, better car for top performers? For example: Implement a delay free toll system and get a Ciaz, else get a bullock cart? Start at the bottom with government officials using public transport 4 days a week, one day of private transport ( paid, maintained and fueled from basic salary without freebies) and watch India break all records in the development indices. [I know, it will never work, they will just game the system]

[rm_arjuna]

TG Govt is known for making such decisions , because there is no one question the Govt. The CM in his first term ordered for a bullet proof MB bus costing 6 cr , which is roting due to vastu issues .

All police officials travel in Fortuners , CM travels in a convoy of bulletproof Toyota LC's . Newly formed districts have poor infrastructure for the official to work at their offices and now this luxury vehicles .

Public representatives and each state government should be held responsible for their fiscal decision and there should we uniform guidelines . I guess a very wishful expectations considering current crop of politicians.

Not to forget other excessive spending by this Govt like issuing Apple 12pro max & iPad pro for each corporator before end of their term .

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Lowflyer23

The buddy doesn't mop the floors or change the diapers of the officer's child as is told by the civilians, these all are just pure myths. The buddy is a term for someone who stands along with the officer throughout his service (thick and thin) and is discharged important duties like coordination.

Offtopic, am not in the army, but my friend is in the AMC. When he was posted in Siachen/Ladakh and Jammu areas he was assigned a buddy.
a phone conversation between us. Excuse the malayalam movie references.

Him- "Wait a second."
Me- .....
Him- "Hello. My buddy came with my food."
Me- "Oohh, got a buddy there? Like Jeeva is to Mohanlal in Keerthichakra?"
Him- "Err...kinda."
Me- "Wot? He is there to be by your side right?"
Him- "Officialy yes. But in practice he is like my manservant"
Me- "???"
Him- "These guys are made to do menial work. First day, he walked into my room to clean it. Since I had already cleaned the room, he proceeded to take my boots and socks. Had to stop him. Told him to go back to his room and come only when I call him."
Me- "So what else does he do?"
Him- "He waits in his room for my call."
Me- "--"
Him- "He brings me my food."
Me- "So it is true. Like Dileep was ill treated by Mammooty in Megham?"
Him- "Look. It is still old way here. Officers...bla...Britishers...blah blah....Sepoys....Indians...blah blah"
Me- "Won't he be pissed off being assigned as a servant?"
Him- "Dunno. But my buddy is happy. In my last posting, my buddy there was in tears since I was going. Other officers are pretty ruthless towards them."
Me- "Damn"
Him- "Look. You won't understand it. Why fix when...."

That said, the integrity of the Armed forces is light years ahead of the average govt babu and it is a shame that till recently even the top tier had just black Ambassadors in the Army, with the rest even today using Gypsys with horribly done up rear doors. They are seeing the GS800 Storme as godsend, while we are talking about Carnivals here.

[srh]

Originally Posted by SR7

The motor vehicles purchased by the Government are exempt from almost all taxes - so when we assume the Carnivals cost around 30 lakhs per unit, the actual figure will more likely be the ex-factory price before GST (also factor in a manufacturer discount), hence the price paid by the Government would be around 55-60% of the OTR price of the vehicle. The Carnivals would have cost the Government ~16-17 lakhs per unit if it was the base version. A few Tucsons were procured for senior IPS officials (ADGP rank) in 2017 by the TN Government - the price the cars were procured by the government from Hyundai (factory is in Sriperumbudur and Tucson CKDs assembled here) was ~13 lakhs per unit whereas the OTR price of the same variant was ~22 lakhs.

Nothing is exempted from GST. The only part that could probably be exempted is registration & road tax

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Lowflyer23

The buddy doesn't mop the floors or change the diapers of the officer's child as is told by the civilians, these all are just pure myths. The buddy is a term for someone who stands along with the officer throughout his service (thick and thin) and is discharged important duties like coordination of different offices, arranging transport, managing logistics, ensuring well being of the family before the officer and his buddy leave for field postings, etc.

Please don't take me wrong for saying this, please take some time out and go and live with any pals that you might have in the army. You might get surprised with the notion that has just been purported by your kind self. They not only mop floors, they do it while wearing wet socks in cold places like Kashmir, so that the floor doesn't get 'dirty'.

Not all babus are what they are meant to be. Same goes for any other personnel in the armed forces, army included. I mean no offence to anyone though. The truth stands.

[GTO]

Mod Note: Let's stop the off-topic discussion, gents. Thanks for the support & understanding

[nakul0888]

How's this for a spending plan? The salary and perks of the babus and politicians should be directly linked to the middle class of their respective operating economies. Higher the average wages of the locals, higher they can jack up their own perks. When the middle class drives an etios, the babus get an etios. When the middle class drives a corolla, babus get a corolla. Seems fair doesn't it? Maybe this is what our country needs to prosper.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by srh

Nothing is exempted from GST. The only part that could probably be exempted is registration & road tax

You are almost correct. The Central government forgoes it's share of GST on vehicle's purchased through the CSD route. As for government vehicle's, they are purchased mostly using the GeM portal nowadays where a 12.5% manufacturer discount is mandatory. Government vehicles (Central & State) are generally exempted from road tax (and tolls too). The exact nature of the exemption differs from state to state and can be found on the Circular/Notification released by the Transport Ministry of the respective State. Toll exemptions are defined under the Toll Act.

[desertknight73]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Please don't take me wrong for saying this, please take some time out and go and live with any pals that you might have in the army. You might get surprised with the notion that has just been purported by your kind self. They not only mop floors, they do it while wearing wet socks in cold places like Kashmir, so that the floor doesn't get 'dirty'.

Not all babus are what they are meant to be. Same goes for any other personnel in the armed forces, army included. I mean no offence to anyone though. The truth stands.

This is not an angry reply to your post my friend, but this leads to a series of quotes which the reader might refer to in order to get the background of my reply. Please, don’t take it personally.

Did not want to jump into this conversation but isn’t this going way too personal and attacking a fellow member to what apparently seems is his profession. (The name reads Low Flyer! Possibly hints enough to what might be his job at hands!)

Folks, members, friends and veterans, let us not indulge in knowing what’s what of the armed forces as there is more to our understanding than what is overheard, eavesdropped, rumoured across social and electronic media.

Prima facie this thread addresses the allocation of Kia Carnivals to government officials, that is a deal bagged by Kia India and they must be complemented for that. It emphasises on the developing relations with the government for the brand’s biggies! Nonetheless government had to spend money on some cars, Kia came with a too good to be true offer, the big shots grabbed it, Carnivals were delivered to the government, the chief minister decided to give it to officials of the top brass. End of story!

Our creative minds weaved a story around this calling it bootlicking, sycophantic behaviour and what not. Not denying that it is a bit overdo of purchase but surely their must be a budget for purchase of cars wherein Kia factored in a better deal than Toyota-Kirloskar or Mahindra or whatever participants who entered the bidding.

Further to that we digressed this discussion from cars to personal attributes and services authorised to men in uniform and authority. I’m saying this as I have lived lives of both the streams of society being addressed here.

And yes, the buddy doesn’t mop the floor or shines the shoes or changes baby diapers. If he is bringing food for the officer, then the officer might not be in the capacity to go to the mess and dine. Also the use of official vehicles being utilised for personal purposes, there are vehicles detailed for specific purposes and roles to be carried out. The reader might find my talk absurd, but yes utilisation of vehicles is at the discretion of the officer who it is entitled to, and not for his personal usage! Not supporting ferrying kids to school and ladies to shopping markets which in my experience has died down to minuscule level.

Rest assured, lack of knowledge is harmful and might end up spoiling relations on this beautiful forum where we address all members as family!