[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Thechakshu

And when this incident happened I approached the guy and asked him to provide me the documents for the insurance claim and he was of the mindset that I was trying to dupe him by fraudulently transferring the car to my name by attaching his documents and forging his signature and he refused. I sent him the car photos and even sent him the insurance claim form to sign. Eventually he provided the documents and signed the form and my car was repaired.

...

Anyways, Now it’s 2021 and I can’t drive the vehicle in Delhi NCR and I’m thinking of selling the car but I can’t do it because of this guy.

I’ve also asked some common friends of my father and that guy to mediate and convince him but they all said that this guy is a nightmare to deal with and has disputes with almost all of them regarding different matters already. This is what they told me, “He is a well connected political man but lacks character.”

And also note that since 2019 incident he never called me (not even once) or asked me to pay him.
Now I have no clue how to deal with this, please suggest what options do I have, if any and what should I do in this case?

Seems like there is some history considering his response on both situations has been same - that he's aware the car is still in his name and that is important to him.

Nevertheless, you are worrying about the option when going through the legal route. In this or any case, you are at minimum risk.

Option 1: Just find out a dealer / middle man who will do the sale of your car in tier 2 cities and they will manage the resale of the car without involving the first owner. Note : things won't be done by the book and you won't get the best price.

Option 2: sit and negotiate with him. Bring down the amount to say 50k and then sell the car on your terms by the book. You'll get a much better price and probably the difference in resale price (as compared to option 1) might be more than what you paid him.

[haisaikat]

Unless you can pay the previous owner a negotiated amount and close the matter by formally transferring the car to your name, you may have to return the car back and settle the matter.

Of course you may demand from him back the some amount which would be part of what your father paid (minus depreciation for keeping the car all these years with you) in case this helps you to also negotiate what you need to pay him to transfer the car.

I am curious, how did you not notice while doing PUC / Insurance renewals that the smart card or insurance shows a different person name. Of course if you just became eligible to drive it may be you were not aware of the motor vehicle rules.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by GTO

Even a 2010 Innova is surely worth more than 75k - 1 lakh. Go with cash, sit on the table and negotiate. Whatever figure you close it at (whether 1 lakh or 50 grand) will deliver a net benefit for you, as you will be able to get more by selling the car out of Delhi.

In a less-than-ideal situation, this is the only win-win I see.

I would strongly agree with this. Guys who suggest methods like selling the car in cash, threatening about handing over to anti social elements are all immature IMO though they sound like a witty way to get out of the situation. Remember, with the car still being in the name of the seller, and with his connections whatever may be, all it takes is a theft case that will turn around the whole plot and make it much much worse for the OP.

Instead, like GTO says, use the mutual friends to try to negotiate and maybe reduce the amount being demanded, and get the paperwork sorted. Until then, it's a big risk to continue in this situation where you drive a car which is legally in someone else's name especially when not in good terms with that person. It's inviting more trouble. The car will definitely fetch more in resale.

[Thechakshu]

Originally Posted by Emvi

Your situation is unfortunate. For better understanding, may I ask you a few things.
1. From when are you using the vehicle on your own?
2. Date of insurance renewal.
3. Where do you(and your father previously used to) get the vehicle serviced, Toyota authorised service centres or FNGs?

1- I have been using the vehicle on my own since July - August 2019. It was my father's vehicle.
2- 20 Feb is the date of renewal for insurance.
3- The vehicle was serviced from private workshops, and has clocked almost 3Lac Kms till date.

Originally Posted by gkveda

If paper work is not done immediately after the sale transaction, these sorts of issues are bound to happen.

Since the original Purchaser is not alive (your father), you are in weak position. However, since the transaction has happened in 2012, I assume, your father must have got the papers signed by him(form 29 and 30) and kept it somewhere in the house. The reason why I assume your father must have got the papers signed is, the earlier owner is a well connected man who has political connections. So, he would definitely know that owner is responsible for transfer of the vehicles after sale. And that if car is caught in any illegal transactions, the owner would be held responsible. So, to secure himself, he would have got delivery note signed by your father. Your father definitely would not sign delivery note without his signatures on owner Transfer ship forms.

So, I suggest you look out for those papers at all corners of home.. If by chance, you get them, you can easily and immediately transfer the car to your name (if still registration is allowed).

If the papers are not available, then either you negotiate with him for 50% of what is asked and close the deal. Or run the car for few more years and sell it to some agents who can purchase without documents at whatever price they ask. You have zero risk even if they use the car illegally since it is owners responsibility to transfer the car. (Anyways, you have to scrap it because of 15 years rules)

But one point I did not understand in the whole transaction is, if you have purchased the car in 2012, how are you able to renew the insurance for 9-10 years?

I have no idea how the insurance was renewed for this car earlier but when i had the responsibility of renewal of insurance in feb 2020, it was done by this agent who starts calling me a week before the expiry and renew it for us. A previous Insurance copy and a copy of Registration is all that's required.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

I'm just curious how you didn't figure that the car isn't in your name, esp during insurance renewals.

I never had the responsibility to renew the insurance before July 2019, after that when the car met had that incident I got to know the details and later when the insurance renewal was due in Feb 2020, I received a call a week before the expiry of the insurance from this insurance agent who did it for me. Documents required were a copy of Registration and previous insurance policy.


2. To make a quick buck
3/4. There must either be some signed copy with him that states that the car has been sold to your father, which is why he feels he can be indemnified - or - he is just plain arrogant about his position and ability to get out should any such situation arise


I have searched all the documents at home and office as well but couldn't find any document relating to this.

Sorry, but that's terrible advice. The car isn't in his name. Firstly, only a chorbazaar fly-by-night shop will agree to scrap this car, since he isn't technically the owner. More importantly, the real owner, on the basis of RC, can come knocking any day asking for the car, since it is legally his. Worse, OP can be booked for theft.

If straight talk isn't helping, you need a lawyer to sort this out asap.

While I appreciate you guys taking the time to read this post and reply with the all the suggestions but I already know all the above mentioned advice of selling the car without documents, scrapping it etc etc. I was wondering if there is some option for me to pursue this legally and establish the ownership by possession or something like that. Is that possible? The reason I asked this here on the forum because It's like a hail mary before I decide and proceed with any of the available options like settling with guy by paying him or anything else.

Originally Posted by speedmiester

I know it's wrong, but the original seller is being unreasonable in asking for 1L after all these years. He is trying to make a quick buck considering the situation.
I am sure no seller would let go of their car without getting full payment.

All OP needs to do is the let the seller know how being adamant about not transferring the car will come back to bite him like in case of an accident with third party losses.

That's something I can definitely try.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Well, if you have some proof of the transaction that happened in 2012 go ahead and tell him that you will file a case against him. I'm sure he wont be willing to go through the hassles for money that isnt his.

I have searched everywhere but found no written document regarding this.

If not a shred of evidence is available, go ahead and scrap the car. Or even better sell it to used car dealers from out of town. Whatever the hassle, he has to deal with it. Make sure you let him know you will do that.

I'm sure he is just hustling to get some quick bucks. If you fight back, this should be sorted out. Also, please make sure not to brush off ego's in the wrong way, or it'll just be a start.

I am thinking of trying this in a very calm and subtle manner so as to not hurt his ego.
Thanks

Originally Posted by TrackDay

This ordeal should be a lesson for those who are very lax about updating documents and wills. In this case it is just an old car, but nonetheless a very important lesson. Even if transactions are amongst friends, do get the work done as soon as possible. There is no point crying over spilled milk here, but to move on.


Don't we all know someone or the other like this, but I wouldn't call them 'friends' . This guy seems to be very hard personality and it is very unlikely for him to land in an understanding. If the resale value of the car is in the ballpark of the so called one lakh rupees, forget it. Get the car sold at whatever value you can get in cash. It is his headache then.


Although unlikely for him to contact you again, if he does then ask him what car he is talking about. Tell him the deal was between your dad and him and you have no idea what he is talking about.


Crooks like these will still try to fleece you after you pay the so called amount. It will be a bad deal in the end. Like the Americans say, we never negotiate with the bad guys

That's the reason I am hesitant to deal with the guy.

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

So the car is physically in your possession but on paper it belongs to this dude? Way I look at it, this is a golden opportunity. The law says, in case of a crime, the official owner is (also) responsible. Sure you can get in touch with some anti social elements like say hooch manufacturers or someone who are always on the lookout for wheels to transport their produce? Lease them the car. If they get caught, not your problem. If they don't enjoy your income. One police case should teach the stubborn connected dude a lesson

Jokes apart, I would say sell the vehicle. I think your best bet is rural areas where they don't care much for documentation. Of course it might be a good idea to make the prospective buyer aware of the true situation. Once you make the sale, get yourself a brand new set of wheels.

I have tried it but they all demand the car ownership to be transferred in their name.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

To everyone advising the OP to scrap/sell the car; kindly also advise him how it can be done if he doesn't have the actual owner's signature on the transfer form. Which dealer, in his right mind, will want to take this car?!

His real struggle is the ownership transfer. Either find political contacts of your own, or lawyer. Anyone got a better idea on how to get the owner to sign this car off?

I was also not that serious about getting the ownership transferred and was like "Jo hoga dekhi jayegi" but I think its high time now to get it sorted.

I was really looking forward to getting some answers like which actually put me in a position of power in this to deal with the situation.

[krishnakarthik1]

Originally Posted by Thechakshu

He is a well connected political man but lacks character.

Thank God he is politically connected because if it was not a dog but a human, he would have had to use all those to get himself out of jail.

Sorry man please don't take it the wrong way but I see a bigger mistake on your side. For 9 years you drive a car which is not on your name and get away with it is itself an invisible blessing. Best to pay him the lakh or request for a discount and get it done with.

[Thechakshu]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

...
I will suggest going and meeting this guy with a set of papers and carrying money with you. When you are face to face, things will be different. No matter how bad a person is, he will have respect for a known departed soul. Tell him you were not aware of this and don't have extra funds too. If he agrees, it's fine else pay and get the papers signed and move on.

Think as an expense, am sure, you will be better off settling, either way.

That's the only peaceful option I have to resolve this.

Originally Posted by GTO

...

In a less-than-ideal situation, this is the only win-win I see.

Yes I agree it is not ideal but only option I have right now to guarantee peace of mind and resolve this.

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

....

Now all the options available to you are clearly mentioned above by other members.

Thanks

Originally Posted by SgtRepeat

...

Best option is to negotiate with the owner & pay him.

Thank You

Originally Posted by avishar

...
I think it is way more riskier to hold onto it.

Originally Posted by GBX

...

Nevertheless, as others said, this is something you have to negotiate your way through. Legal recourse is a quagmire.

Originally Posted by AMG Power

...

Stick your neck out further at your own risk.

It is clear that Holding on to this is definitely way more risky.

[neeraj0272]

Originally Posted by Thechakshu

I am thinking of trying this in a very calm and subtle manner so as to not hurt his ego.

I assume that you are somewhat of a younger age maybe in your early twenties.
Also some forum members of again relatively younger age of maybe early thirties or less are also giving advice to you to how to proceed.
My advice to you is to consult your senior relatives or your late father's friends. Looks to me that the matter can be resolved amiably if talks are done in a cordial manner.

[anjan_c2007]

After reading your account there are a few points to be noted:-

(1) From what I can gather you have said that the previous owner was your father's friend.

(2) It's unlawful not to transfer a motor vehicle in the present owner's name, after the mandatory grace period for transfer expires. Transfer of ownership is a must and can invite trouble both for the seller, who has not monitored the RTO records since nine long years and also for the buyer who has not changed ownership since that many years.

(3) Since both the seller and the buyer ( its you, now your father's legal heir) were at fault. But now, as per the NCR laws, the vehicle would have been deregistered and no transfer would be possible.

(4) If it's a 2010 Innova (diesel), it stands deregistered wef 2020. Hence you will not be able to get even a NOC at all to resell it now.

(5) The Central government is trying to get an uniform policy for motor vehicles all over India, as far as their 'end of life' is concerned and they are battling for a uniform 15 year life for all private vehicles throughout the country. Maybe the 10 and 15 year 'end of life' practiced by NCR is gone, but that is uncertain and may take time. A patient wait may help here.

(6) And there are a lot of old, 'end of life' NCR vehicles being sold as scrap and workshops engage in dismantling them for spares. In case you favour this option, papers would not be necessary for some such scrappers and the vehicle can be bid Good Bye just like that. But if the scrapping guy demands papers, it would be troublesome. You can then persuade the previous owner to part with whatever papers he has and also an authority letter from him in stamp paper on affidavit, saying he is authorising you to hand over this vehicle to the scrapping workshop. He may ask for money for this signing etc. This sixth option is the most practicable.

[asit.kulkarni93]

People are recommending selling the car after settling with the first owner but it’s Delhi NCR. How is it going to help? This car can’t be transferred or it can’t have a noc issued even out of Delhi-NCR as it’s in the 11th year. It must be already deregistered. I would suggest the OP to first reach out to a RTO agent and check if the hassle is worth it. If yes, try to find out the transaction related details that happened in 2012. Meet this previous owner if it’s worth the hassle, if not find someone who can can remove the chassis imprint and plates from the car. Remove the number plate and show it to scrap guys. Ask them to dismantle and sell off the parts. Removing all traces of the chassis number are very important. You may not get the price of an actual used car, but that ship has anyway sailed thanks to NGT.

[Cresterk]

I honestly cannot understand people who sell cars and then keep the registration under their own name. If I were you, I would take a nice long trip hitting every single speed and signal cam on the way before abandoning it/selling/scrapping it out of state and let him deal with the fines or cases that arises from it.

I don’t think the stolen car argument would have much weight behind it since he wouldn’t even be able to answer basic questions like when the car was last in his possession without uncomfortable questions about why it wasn’t reported years ago.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by asit.kulkarni93

People are recommending selling the car after settling with the first owner but it’s Delhi NCR. How is it going to help? This car can’t be transferred or it can’t have a noc issued even out of Delhi-NCR as it’s in the 11th year. It must be already deregistered. I would suggest the OP to first reach out to a RTO agent and check if the hassle is worth it. If yes, try to find out the transaction related details that happened in 2012. Meet this previous owner if it’s worth the hassle, if not find someone who can can remove the chassis imprint and plates from the car. Remove the number plate and show it to scrap guys. Ask them to dismantle and sell off the parts. Removing all traces of the chassis number are very important. You may not get the price of an actual used car, but that ship has anyway sailed thanks to NGT.

The first realistic and reasonable bit of advice, after nearly 3 pages of content.

OP, all things considered, not having the car in your name is no skin off your back. I'm assuming it isn't a petrol Innova, in which case the validity of the vehicle has already expired - just go ahead and scrap the car. If not, sell it ahead without transferring because neither NOC nor transfer is possible now - either way it will not come back to you.

[Emvi]

Originally Posted by Thechakshu

1- I have been using the vehicle on my own since July - August 2019. It was my father's vehicle.
2- 20 Feb is the date of renewal for insurance.
3- The vehicle was serviced from private workshops, and has clocked almost 3Lac Kms till date.

Leaving aside matters, as why you weren't aware of the ownership details or how you managed to renew the insurance, let me put forth my POV. I discussed your issue with my cousin, who happens to be a lawyer. According to him, seller and buyer, both are at fault in cases such as this. The seller is at risk, if the vehicle gets involved in an accident or used for illegal activities. And the risk of the buyer is what exactly you are experiencing now. As far as proceeding legally is concerned, you have a very very "slim" chance, he said. Vehicle service invoices in the name of your father(in case you have them) could be used to prove your father's ownership of the vehicle, which may not be easy, he opined. Considering the legal expenses, slow paced nature of our judiciary, your time/effort required and the "complications" involved, proceeding legally is not worth a try IMHO. As expressed by many already, settling the issue amicably with the seller seems to be the most practical option.

[Drive_30]

I also had the misfortune of exchanging my scooty with a friend's Bajaj Avenger in 2016 and to tranfer the ownership by ourselves, however, few months after the exchange, he went to Delhi to work for a Hotel Chain, in the meanwhile my friend's brother sold it off for want of cash without any documentation through a middleman and without informing both of us.

When my friend came back after 6 month's, I asked him to transfer the same when the story unfolded and a heated argument started. We then tried everything except reporting the same as it would get my friend and me in trouble.

Fast forward in mid 2020, a person called me up who jad recently purchased the vehicle and found my number on the RC and we promptly did all the formalities to transfer the ownership.

Guess you will have to negotiate the same with the person or else search your father's documents to find the tranfer forms.

[jithin23]

This is exactly the reason why I didn't buy a used scooter a couple of months ago. If the paper work is not in order and the owner's names not transferred diligently, all these things are bound to happen. The running around is just not worth the few bucks saved.

Sorry for being rude and critical, but the only options I see are

1: Go for a settlement with the influential guy because you can't take this to the police as the fault is on your side and since you already mentioned he has no character, they are capable of ANYTHING. I've seen such people live and trust me it's not worth the agony as these guys are leeches. Try taking his help to transfer it to your name.

2. You can sell off the car for a lesser rate or scrap all the parts of the car

3. Try re registering you car in your name if you have any attachments with the car. This is a 50-50 chance and can be done through an RTO agent

[Guna]

Thinking about this incident objectively, if I was in the shoes of the person who sold the car and I come to know that the car is still in my name after 8 years and the car is involved in some accident, I will be really furious. May be it is way of making the person to pay the penalty for his fault (or may be not). Luckily he did not drag you to police/RTO. Did you not ever check the RC book before start driving the car? I would say just pay it off.