[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

[*]Rear defogger and wiper[*]Front driver side grab handles
[]

I was in Dubai this week for work and on my way out today, I spent a little time at the Jeep Showroom.

I only wanted to research the way they have managed the rear windscreen wiper and washer unit. (And as usual I wanted to take photos of Jeeps.)

I must say each time I spend any time in a Jeep showroom I am more and more appreciative of the phenomenal engineering they have carried out.

You can stand on the bonnet cowl areas.


They have a good space between the inner tub and the outer skin and these tubes and wires for the rear window washer and rear windscreen de frosting element and all passes through there.

And then near the door it descends and goes along the side sills again between the inner body tub and the outer skin. Because the doors are removable.






The boot space and the tumble fold rear seat. Good Very common sense headrest design - easy to fold the seat down. Click the lever upwards to fold rear seat down.



The first fold. And the excellent gravity led tumble fold with the clean tie down points to secure the seat when folded, with Velcro.






Their engineering is really very thoughtful.



Our Thars are very nice Jeepy things. But truth be told, they aren’t somehow quite as nice as the real original Jeeps are.

[highwaypatrol]

Well, we are just outsourcing the engineering part here. Soon we can see this on THAR too. When some one is spending on the design, why bother? Just copy it! ��

[sgmuser]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I was in Dubai this week for work and on my way out today, I spent a little time at the Jeep Showroom.

My ramblings on these two which I felt I can share as I have owned both:

1. Thar is no match when it comes to the real quality of materials used, execution of the clever utilities, and the Fit and Finish (intentionally capitalising). Wrangler is at least 20 years ahead in these parts. Cost plays a big role but still we are not spending that much less IMHO. We are paying USD 25000+ for a top-spec Thar.

2. Wrangler has many ingenious way of putting small bits and pieces of stuff which are mostly utilitarian and unique to Wranglers. Mahindra smartly copied them without pain but the execution and quality are abysmal. I have (2 door Thar though, but it is still worth pointing out with regards to the Mahindra's quality control issues which are perennial in nature, looks like 5 door cannot escape as well)

1. A rusty front arm bolt already (one year old with 15k on ODO) and not even able to unscrew it.

2. Too many rattles from the back.

3. Poor quality of materials especially fit/finish/feel etc.

4. Horrible and jarring very slow speed ride (improves greatly with a little bit higher speed and this is with AVO}.

5. Spares are not that quick and easy to get. Even small things like reflectors take time to get.

This is just a simple 2 door Mahindra for you, that too without any electronics. Imagine a full-blown electronics of Scorpio-N and XUV 7OO. Going to be niggles galore.

Then comes the mods market built over decades that simply has no match and Thar too developing similar markets for the mods. But sadly the quality of mods is poor in general except few stuff compared to Wrangler's.

3. Is Jeep Wrangler the Japanese level (aka Hilux 2023) of quality of build, rattle-free and abuse-friendly? Simply no. Japanese are a few decades ahead when it comes to overall quality, quality control and build even compared to the US. Americans demand quality and toughness. Jeep is no way near something like the F150 or RAMs. What to talk about of Thar? Thar is Bolero level of abuse friendly but you need to take care of it properly - crude quality - that can withstand abuse but crude in nature. Hope I managed to get it out the way I intended.

On a side note, ever seen a Prado in camouflage? In my 23 years of foreign experience not even once I could see a Toyota in a camo compared to Mahindra, but still, initial lots have problems and QC issues. I follow many non-desi car blogs but somehow I wonder how Toyota replicates their quality control success again and again. It cannot be just their process alone but start from scratch - DESIGN and the Japanese mindset towards their work ethics. So, expecting an Indian product with this level of quality is simply not realistic - I convince myself. What options do we have to compare to the Thar? Gurkha? No way with that decade-old Merc engine, Wrangler at 70 big ones on-road and then taking to the rough terrains? No way! Hilux? Too long and too cumbersome to manage in a place like India. So, here we go. It is the Thar.

IMHO. Five door Thar will go through same initial quality control issues for the first two years or even more. Either pay 1 lakh less, buy early and become a guinea pig or wait for 2/3 years, then you have fair chance of less niggles in the 5 door Thar. Just my two cents.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by sgmuser

On a sidenote, ever seen a Prado on camouflage? In my 23 years of foreign experience not even once I could see a Toyota in a camo compared to Mahindra but still initial lots of problems and QC issues.

OFF TOPIC
Toyota tested the Land Cruiser 300 for years, smartly disguised as a Land Cruiser 200 series. Also, here's a 300 in camo, although now in 300 form.



Article from June 2021

The 2022 Toyota LandCruiser 300 Series has been hiding in plain sight for at least the last five years, disguised under the bodywork of the current generation Toyota LandCruiser 200 Series.

Footage released by Toyota overnight during the official unveiling of the first new LandCruiser in 14 years shows a number of prototype test vehicles.

Link

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

OFF TOPIC
Toyota tested the Land Cruiser 300 for years, smartly disguised as a Land Cruiser 200 series. Also, here's a 300 in camo, although now in 300 form.

Again offtopic.

Agreed. But what I felt was you wouldn't see or even know what model Toyota was testing. So secretive that it feels like the model came overnight. Compare this to our home grown companies, especially Mahindra. We could even find out the different variants by all those test mules running around. Feel it is a deliberate ploy by Mahindra to keep interest alive, cause no other company has such lax attitude towards the test mule camouflaging or the test mules just parked around randomly.

[sgmuser]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

OFF TOPIC
Toyota tested the Land Cruiser 300 for years, smartly disguised as a Land Cruiser 200 series. Also, here's a 300 in camo, although now in 300 form.

Attachment 2572493

Article from June 2021


Link

This looked like a Patrol (the last window shape). No wonder it is so secretive.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Again offtopic.

Agreed. But what I felt was you wouldn't see or even know what model Toyota was testing. So secretive that it feels like the model came overnight. Compare this to our home grown companies, especially Mahindra. We could even find out the different variants by all those test mules running around. Feel it is a deliberate ploy by Mahindra to keep interest alive, cause no other company has such lax attitude towards the test mule camouflaging or the test mules just parked around randomly.

Also it makes their vehicles easier drive through our traffic \ road conditions in comparison to other vehicles, even if on paper they offer better numbers.

An extreme example is how easy an otherwise crude looking Bolero is to drive around for errands in town, you`d think it would be hard to drive and noisy etc but its quiet, all the controls are light and it behaves well - a pleasant surprise.

I noticed that Mahindra has spent a lot of time testing their recent vehicles up in Nilgiris and it shows, they go up the Sigur ghat like a champ, everything is well judged.

So I think its a matter of horses for courses - not the first time global favorites have eaten humble pie in our market. A nicely made door hinge or a parcel tray Vs a well tuned engine + transmission for India roads, I think we all know which side we are going to tilt.

[LionX]

Another video of 5 Door Thar test mules

https://youtu.be/dwIxAKU3QW4?si=UjFt7Noh48C500cw

[ajitmoses]

This could be a great time for Mahindra to create this Armada or whatever they are going to call it different looking to the Wrangler. This will help them to sell in other markets too and not everyone wants to be seen in a car that is globally perceived to be a clone of the Jeep Wrangler. Mahindra will likely be making cars far into the future and are probably selling more cars than Jeep so now is a good time to drop that hangover.

[highwaypatrol]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

An extreme example is how easy an otherwise crude looking Bolero is to drive around for errands in town, you`d think it would be hard to drive and noisy etc but its quiet, all the controls are light and it behaves well - a pleasant surprise.

Totally agree with you. As someone who has driven Bolero for over a lakh Km, it so easy drive around in busy streets. Also the boxy design helps to park so close to walls and curbs in our chaotic cities is another aspect many drivers enjoy using these type of cars. Even my Thar is a joy to drive in cities, overall visibility is another advantage!

[Ananthang]

Originally Posted by highwaypatrol

Totally agree with you. As someone who has driven Bolero for over a lakh Km, it so easy drive around in busy streets. Also the boxy design helps to park so close to walls and curbs in our chaotic cities is another aspect many drivers enjoy using these type of cars. Even my Thar is a joy to drive in cities, overall visibility is another advantage!

This is surprise and never thought Bolero is in that league. I thought it would be a tough one to drive. Even the new Bolero neo is like that?

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Ananthang

. I thought it would be a tough one to drive. t?

Originally Posted by highwaypatrol

Totally agree with you. As someone who has driven Bolero for over a lakh Km, it

I had a 2005 2WD 65 HP Bolero Sportz with XD3PU Peugeot engine with AC and all. Superb versatile vehicle. You can chug up and down happily for days and days and days. Only thing it did not have was the juice to overtake quickly. But it would go anywhere anytime. Easy to drive. Easy to park. Tough as nails. And simple to look after. Sadly sold it in favour of the powerful Turbo Scorpio.

My 2021 Thar, though a big and wide vehicle is also good for all sorts of usage as a daily driver. Only issue is its inherent busy ride especially on concrete surfaces and the fuel inefficiency of the Petrol.

[shibujp]

A lot is been written about quality with respect to extensive driving and testing the vehicle on the road before the launch. While this is a crucial part of testing it is just one stage of testing.

Quality process design is the same from software to automobiles. So let me illustrate this from my field which is software and why I also think that Indian manufacturers still struggle with this aspect.

1. Testing a software product after development will by no means eliminate all bugs. It will eliminate the simple ones but not the ones baked into the design or architecture phases. Even some coding bugs may be so expensive to rewrite that it is accepted and the software is just released with it. Replace software with a vehicle.

2. Every step of the development process starting from requirements contribute to quality. This is why Toyota came up with Kanban boards that we adopted in software. Another one is Jidoka...a wire that any shop floor personnel on the production line can pull to stop production if they detect an issue.

3. Rewarding the right quality mindset. This is extremely important to foster quality. Developer, designers and architects need to be empowered to flag quality issues and stop the process in its tracks to remedy the situation. Else you have the fiasco that is the 737. Toyota actively rewards employees for flagging quality issues and improvements. This creates one of the most important aspects of quality - culture - something that I feel is missing hugely in India.

4. Time and money - quality takes time and money. This is the elephant in the room that everyone pretends not to see. The only way to speed it up is to automated quality processes which cost money. So it is often a play between time and money. Writing good test automation calls for development skills equivalent to regular coding. Low paid quality personnel is where companies gain margin. However a one time investment in quality can mean repeatable quality consistency.

5. In software development testing needs at least 30% of the total software development time. However realistically this is less than 10%. Eating into the testing time is a common practice to ensure adequate development time.

I am sure none of this is new knowledge to any professional in the Indian industry. We all can guess where the gaps are for Tata and Mahindra that no amount of on road testing is going to help. Quality has seen huge strides since the initial Thar but looking at the way it's stagnated in the XUV 500 and the 700 there is a point at which it's just impossible to improve without completely revamping the entire process and rebuilding culture.

Drive on,
Shibu

[kkSolo]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Only thing it did not have was the juice to overtake quickly.

I own the Bolero 1.5
(2022) and its quite the opposite. Overtakes are surprisingly quick, so much torque down low that quick tap on the A pedal and you're done with overtaking most vehicles on the road. Not to mention that most vehicles easily give way to to this thing hurtling towards them

Ride quality and the archaic interiors still remain the worst aspects!

Waiting to see if the Thar 5 door in a bare bones 2wd guise could be an ideal and safety conscious replacement to the Bolero!

[The Pianist]

Originally Posted by kkSolo

I own the Bolero 1.5
(2022) and its quite the opposite.

Waiting to see if the Thar 5 door in a bare bones 2wd guise could be an ideal and safety conscious replacement to the Bolero!

Even the 1.5 in 3dr Thar is quite surprising.

Ideally it would be the perfect replacement, the budget for the new 5dr Thar would have to be in the XUV 700 territory tho.