[kaushikduttajsr]

I really appreciate team-bhp for the diversity in opinions. My discourse on the taxation system is very objective - tax is a wedge and helps neither the poor nor the rich. At the end, it is slow poison and kills an economy as well as a recession.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_wedge

[AnishRanjan]

Originally Posted by Shubhendra

A different perspective: I am from a small town in MP which is not as progressed as small towns near any metro city. Most of the people here own second hand cars older than 10-15 years because they can not afford new cars (nothing available below 5 lacs now and yearly earning of these people are not more than 3-4 lacs). What about them?
Its pretty much same story in most of the old/small towns in India. They can buy a M800 for INR 40,000 and provide a secure transport to their family and shield them from harsh weather. They are using their second hand Hero Splendor for 20 years (which is in shambles but get the work done), what about them?
Its not a hearsay, because of COVID, i spent considerable time in and around my town to realize that life is difficult for them.

You are absolutely right.. They will not not be eligible for loans as well from the organised sector as they will not meet the requirements. How on earth will they be able to buy a new vehicle then? Will the government give them subsidy and loan. Nope I don't see that happening.

So essentially a huge population of this country will be cut off from owning a mode of transport as it will simply become unaffordable to them. Hope these babus get some sense into them and take wise decisions.

[aashishnb]

Originally Posted by vikred

The govt. should definitely look into[*] loud Piaggio Ape kind of vehicles. Lot of noise pollution, more than the honking on the streets

Thankfully, they do not need to use horn - reducing sound pollution!! ROFL

Originally Posted by Jeroen

When that happens I will bitch, but I will still be in that 1% bracket!

The amount of direct tax is a reflection on your income, the amount of indirect tax is a reflection on how much you consume (i.e. buy or spend).

Jeroen

+1. Reminds me of a quote - Focus on improving your revenues / income, the costs will take care of themselves !!

[PioneerNB]

Its pretty much same story in most of the old/small towns in India. They can buy a M800 for INR 40,000 and provide a secure transport to their family and shield them from harsh weather. They are using their second hand Hero Splendor for 20 years (which is in shambles but get the work done), what about them?

Totally agree to this.

Taxes are never my concern as long as it is used to develop my nation. What I feel is unjust is I pay for the cost for the entire convoys used by politicians, their fuel and in future their green tax also(I suspect they use this to keep upgrading to the latest Land Cursers ). So technically someone's luxury is a tax burden on me while I drive around a rotten tin box because I cannot afford a better vehicle.

[Aravind_M92]

I feel the entire green tax is stupid! What's the point of collecting money in place of environmental damage! What's done is already done! Rather than collecting tax, law should be enforced that, the owner should plant a tree for each year post the stipulated time frame for the vehicle or some other environmental cause. I don't think any good is being done using these collected money. Just my two cents!

[Utham123]

On a different note, I was interested to know why are the government public transport vehicles taxed less than commercial vehicles. Is it because they serve a social cause? Or is it because it will incur more cost for government?

This maybe my subjective opinion but the goevrnment transport buses are one of the worst polluters in the city. They are often old, battered and unsafe. If they want to improve environment replacing or taxing those unfit vehicles more would be a good start.

And yes, I realize I may be privileged enough to own a personal vehicle but, I will switch to public transport if it is convenient and safe enough.

[antz.bin]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Whether we like it or not we the car owning citizenry represent some figure north of the top 7% households in this land. The top 7% households in India have an annual income of ~Rs 23 lakhs.

I don't quite agree with the figure in BOLD. Could you please quote the source?

Also, how do you define household? Maybe the definition will add more clarity.

Thanks!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

I don't quite agree with the figure in BOLD. Could you please quote the source?

Also, how do you define household? Maybe the definition will add more clarity.

Thanks!

I'll check and share the link with you on the data source. Usually if you disagree then it behooves you to state why and what your alternative data is. Simply saying I disagree does not aid the discussion. The term household has been defined by the Govt of India as a family living together simplistically put though the definition is more thorough.

[antz.bin]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I'll check and share the link with you on the data source. Usually if you disagree then it behooves you to state why and what your alternative data is. Simply saying I disagree does not aid the discussion. The term household has been defined by the Govt of India as a family living together simplistically put though the definition is more thorough.

Well, I disagreed because:

I am a car owner. My car is now 1+ year old and I bought it brand new.
I live comfortably with my family in a household of 3 in a gated society in a Tier 1 City.
My *Household Income* is nowhere close to the number you have mentioned in the post I quoted earlier.

I know a few of my friends and colleagues who are car owners AND they do not have a Household Income in the range that you mentioned (so it is not a sample set of 1 household).

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

Well, I disagreed because:

I am a car owner. My car is now 1+ year old and I bought it brand new.
I live comfortably with my family in a household of 3 in a gated society in a Tier 1 City.
My *Household Income* is nowhere close to the number you have mentioned in the post I quoted earlier.

I know a few of my friends and colleagues who are car owners AND they do not have a Household Income in the range that you mentioned (so it is not a sample set of 1 household).

Those are Govt statistics based on the census of India. I'm trying to locate the page. My problem is I read too much. I assume the Govt data is formed by many more data points than two. The data as I quoted it says the top 7% have an income of Rs 23 lakhs. I didn't say that everyone who owns a car must belong to that top 7%. I just said that in all likelihood most on Team BHP are in that segment. I really don't know what you are arguing about unless you are arguing for the sake of it. It is a common tendency of our minds to assume that our personal observations are universal.

[dragracer567]

While I have my own rants on taxes in India (especially tariffs), to be fair I actually support the green tax. The green tax is not meant for revenue generation as far as I know, on most countries worldwide, the green tax is meant to discourage people from using old polluting vehicles. While old vehicles aren't the only source of pollution, they are certainly part of the problem. So, the rationale is that if you do not wish to part with your old vehicle, you may keep it while paying an additional tax.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with a green tax. I repeat I do not support all taxes and I do believe that the tariffs in India barely allow the market to function (especially for export-import) but a green tax is fast becoming a norm worldwide and it's just keeping with the times.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Govt of India does deserve to be bashed, no doubt. Can our tax payers money be better used, sure it can. Should it be better used, of course it can. But as citizens, we Indians, have a tendency to curse the Govt without pausing the think of what works well. 75 years of democracy, per capita income going from Rs 18,260 in 1948-49 to Rs 135,050* in 2018-19, 6%+ economic growth we enjoyed for 20 years from 1999 to 2019, stable functioning chaos that still works, all this did not happen by magic it happened because of the citizens, the farmers, the corporates and the Govt doing something right. Bash the Govt by all means but let us also pause and think. PS: I do not work for the Govt and have enough scars of my collisions with Govt officials. I also have enough examples of when collaboration with the Govt worked well. What may seem like an unfair tax to us, the top 2%, will seem fair and desirable to the bottom 90%. Every view is a function of where you stand and watch it from.

Very well said, sir. We have certainly come a very long way and Indians really need a sense of perspective with where we were just 2 generations ago.

I have had the fortune of having close friends from as well as travelling to countries in Latin America. I was surprised at the level of insecurity in Latin American cities (generally the large non-capital cities like Rio, Medellin and Guayaquil) the utter incompetence of the governments, economies that have forever been in recession, eye-watering inflation (except in Ecuador which uses USD), gangs controlling parts of the cities, general insecurity etc. In terms of general security and government competence, there is no comparison with India (atleast the Southern states and main cities). Mind you, these countries have higher per capita GDPs as compared to India, are cleaner, don't have as many people living in poverty and are socially much more liberal (so the lives of women are invariably better there) but the sense that we have in India that the future will be better, that optimism is missing in Latin America and I believe the reason is the 3 decades of uninterrupted growth fueled equally by the various governments, exceptional companies, start-ups and the people of India.

For those who say that in richer countries they get back what they pay for in taxes, here in the UAE, we pay a very modest VAT of 5%. Offcourse, it's low but we don't actually get anything back for the taxes we pay except roads and infrastructure (mostly vanity). Healthcare is self-paid unless you are fortunate enough to have decent private insurance (most labours have insurance by name only, barely covers anything) while schooling is paid and quite expensive in comparison with the prevailing wages here. Saudi Arabia is similar but with an even steeper 15% VAT now. Compare this with India, in my home state of Tamil Nadu and neighbouring Kerala, you will get decent (but certainly not exceptional) education and healthcare for free from the government, now you can choose which is a better system.

[Nilesh5417]

We want to compete with other countries when it comes to adopting policies - tailored for our context or not. But we don't want to take a leaf out of their books when it comes to implementation and execution of social welfare. Including absolute basics such as civic amenities for which we pay all these taxes.
Talking about top 7% etc is all fine but isn't this policy going to impact the other 93% too who will also be hit hard by inflation this will cause? Won't the cost of transporting everything incl peole and goods go up? Where is the public transport that burgeoning cities need - metro routes that are active today except in delhi or maybe a couple of more cities are so ridiculously planned that they benefit no one and the common man can't afford to take a ride daily.
Also, the centre can only make laws, the implementation is left to states and local bodies. Which is where the most corruption and leakage happens. I doubt the hyper local world is going to see old vehicles going off the roads in India's hinterland anytime soon. Heck, the traffic police won't challan a ridiculous 6 seater spewing crazy amount of black smoke right the middle of Pune City. All these laws unfortunately get applied to the top 7% who understand them and are conditioned to following them from.school and are easy to penalise. The so called have-nots care two-hoots about legalities and the authorities turn a blind eye.
So the 7% will always have this question of why should I not keep what I have earned? Why do I need to keep giving away a larger and larger share from it when it brings me back nothing - tangible or intangible?

[JoshiSikha]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Whether we like it or not we the car owning citizenry represent some figure north of the top 7% households in this land. The top 7% households in India have an annual income of ~Rs 23 lakhs. The top 1% have an annual income of Rs 55 lakhs. Every one on Team BHP membership rolls is most probably in that 7% bracket. If your household owns 2 cars you are almost certainly as a household in the top 2%. So if the Govt won't tax us who will it tax? Now the taxes may not make sense, the taxes may seem ill-logical and by definition any tax is seen as punitive in the eyes of the tax payer. Right now I am not commenting on whether these green taxes are sensible or not - that is a separate point. I'm only addressing the lament expressed by many on this and other threads of us the car owner being taxed to death. That is true. But don't expect that to change anytime in the medium term future. Compare our income with the gross income of the domestic worker in our house. Half the country is below her. If our household income at $23,000 is roughly 13X the per capita then enthusiastic taxing is inevitable.

Thanks, that was a very thoughtful comment. This is the thought process the developers of this policy had in mind as well. The poor and lower middle class will not be much effected negatively by this policy. This could be a positive for them as it will increase jobs and the overall economy. The main people it effects - as you pointed out - are the top 7% of our country (doesn't mean they are not important). But taking into consideration the overall gains for the country I think this policy may be beneficial. But we have to wait and see what happens. I have been following this closely and even spoken to SIAM. Currently there are not enough recycling facilities in India to handle all these cars getting scraped. It will take a few years for industry to meet the demand. We hope to be at the forefront when it happens.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by JoshiSikha

Currently there are not enough recycling facilities in India to handle all these cars getting scraped. It will take a few years for industry to meet the demand. We hope to be at the forefront when it happens.

Thank you.
You should write a thread after you have qualified with 25 posts on the Govt policy and practice over scrapping of cars, what works, what does not, the pitfalls, the things to be careful about etc. I'm sure a large number of members will find it very useful.

[JoshiSikha]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you.
You should write a thread after you have qualified with 25 posts on the Govt policy and practise over scrapping of cars, what works, what does not, the pitfalls, the things to be careful about etc. I'm sure a large number of members will find it very useful. Be careful not to make it a pitch for your company as that would go against the forum policies. All the best.

Thanks for the advice Narayan. I will be put up a thread when I'm qualified. And it will not be a pitch, got an infraction already, don't want to get kicked out from this community. Cheers