[crashnburn_in]

Originally Posted by sanchari

I think this is the first step to challenging NGT's order on 15+ year old vehicles. Once the right testing centers are in place and the policy is in place, the govt can appeal the NGT order and claim that banning all 15+ year old vehicles is arbitrary. Today there are no proper testing centers, and the usual road-corner pollution testing certificates can be forged/manipulated. I am hoping the govt challenges the NGT order now that policy is in place.

What actual Authority does NGT have? Is it even a legit public org or self appointed?

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by samaspire

The official Scrapage Policy document.

The document posted is not the official policy.
I have already posted this document. As I said this could be from yesterday's PowerPoint presentation in my post #125. I have also quoted from my post again below as to how the the official document will be like. It will also bear the signature of a Joint Secretary or Under Secretary (MVL). MVL stands for motor vehicles law.

Originally Posted by adrian

I have a 30+ year old Ambassador which has fitness up to 2025. I don't think I will be able to renew the registration paying 40k and neither do I intend to send it to the scrap yard.

So what are my options before me ?

Can I just pry off the number plate and garage it or is there a legal procedure for the same ? Asking because there is a hear say that the vehicle has to be compulsorily scrapped if the registration is cancelled.

If you go through the document you need to pay Rs 1000/- for the automated fitness test and Rs 5000/- for re-registration once every five years. This adds up to Rs 6000/- once every five years. Not Rs 40,000 as stated by you. There is no mention of Green Tax amounts in the documents. This they have left to the state's discretion.

If an unfit vehicle is parked in a private premises no power can object to its existence or presence.

Again quoting for samaspire:-

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

This could be a PowerPoint presentation during yesterday's launch of the scrapping policy. It surely lists the salient features of the new policy.

But the gazette notification of the final policy is not yet out. It will have a reference number viz GSR something and a date.

Only after the final approvals are these sent for publication in the Gazette of India with the date from which it takes effect.

Hence we await the final gazette notification.

[srgntpepper]

Originally Posted by crashnburn_in

What actual Authority does NGT have? Is it even a legit public org or self appointed?

The NGT is created by an act of Parliament to oversee environmental issues. It is a tribunal, court-like, but works parallel to the civil court system. While this is generalization, it could be considered at the level of a high court, ie to appeal/overthrow their decisions, your next step is the SC.

The NGT is in my opinion a classic case of path to evil is paved with good intentions. I run an industry in a very highly polluted industrial zone in Maharashtra. So called association leaders, large industries, and the local pollution control boards, local newspapers, gram panchayat leaders all have gamed the pollution control norms for years, making the system rotten to the core. The cost of bribery is nothing compared to the cost of compliance.

Long story short, without the intervention of an independent quasi-judicial authority like the NGT, there is no hope for any environment protection laws to be actually enforced. We've run roughshod so far, and the correction is extreme in the other direction.

However, nothing can be perfect, and the NGT in it's focused unipolar zeal, but limited wisdom does pass judgements and rulings that do not take reality (scientific or pragmatic) into consideration, and creates a whole new set of problems.

I personally have gone from "Yaay, finally a body that cares!" to "Boy, I hope they scrap or reframe this Act"

[JoshMachine]

What category or policy section rules apply to the smoke-billowing government buses/cars etc which have been plying for decades in some cases?

Who will bell that cat? Or is there something already in place?

[logicalidiot]

Originally Posted by adrian

I have a 30+ year old Ambassador which has fitness up to 2025.

This right here is my question. If you have a car older than 15 years but if the current fitness certificate is valid upto 2025, does the new policy overrule the original fitness certificate validity?

[adrian]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

This adds up to Rs 6000/- once every five years. Not Rs 40,000 as stated by you.

Thank you Sir, 6k is reasonable. The 40k I said was as heard in the reports of various media.

Originally Posted by logicalidiot

if the current fitness certificate is valid upto 2025, does the new policy overrule the original fitness certificate validity?

Of course that would make two of us.

[Ponbaarathi]

Kerala opposes Union govt’s vehicle scrapping policy, calls it unscientific

The new National Automobile Scrappage Policy introduced by the Union government is impractical and unscientific and Kerala would protest against it, said state minister for transport, Antony Raju. It is impractical to follow a policy that says that commercial vehicles older than 15 years cannot run their service, the minister said on a Facebook post.

Source : https://www.thenewsminute.com/articl...entific-153933

[Mickey1986]

Well its full of confusion for especially Delhi NCR Car owners. I have a Diesel vehicle which is 8 year old as of now. I will be looking for options soon to replace the same if the rule isn't same for us. Though, I am pretty happy with the performance of my vehicle and don't want to change as of now. Especially during pandemic.

Dont know how can we get more clear picture on this.

[kosjam]

I have a slightly differing point of view.

Lets assume that your 15 year old diesel vehicle is working perfectly, no issues. (99 percent cases do not fall into this category). Does that still mean that your vehicle is as enviornmentally friendly as a diesel car launched today? After all, thats what the government wants, a new car improves exhaust emissions, as well as spurring the economy.

Another point to having such stron laws is that in a country like India, atleast some of the regulations might filter down, not 100 % but atleast 20-25%. If they have laws which have a impact strength of 25% to begin with, how much of it will actually filter down?

[crashnburn_in]

Hmm.. isnt the entire hope and premise here that NGT folks cannot be corrupted if other orgs have been?

Originally Posted by srgntpepper

The NGT is created by an act of Parliament to oversee environmental issues. It is a tribunal, court-like, but works parallel to the civil court system. While this is generalization, it could be considered at the level of a high court, ie to appeal/overthrow their decisions, your next step is the SC.

The NGT is in my opinion a classic case of path to evil is paved with good intentions. I run an industry in a very highly polluted industrial zone in Maharashtra. So called association leaders, large industries, and the local pollution control boards, local newspapers, gram panchayat leaders all have gamed the pollution control norms for years, making the system rotten to the core. The cost of bribery is nothing compared to the cost of compliance.

Long story short, without the intervention of an independent quasi-judicial authority like the NGT, there is no hope for any environment protection laws to be actually enforced. We've run roughshod so far, and the correction is extreme in the other direction.

However, nothing can be perfect, and the NGT in it's focused unipolar zeal, but limited wisdom does pass judgements and rulings that do not take reality (scientific or pragmatic) into consideration, and creates a whole new set of problems.

I personally have gone from "Yaay, finally a body that cares!" to "Boy, I hope they scrap or reframe this Act"

[ajs85]

Originally Posted by kosjam

I have a slightly differing point of view.

Lets assume that your 15 year old diesel vehicle is working perfectly, no issues. (99 percent cases do not fall into this category). Does that still mean that your vehicle is as enviornmentally friendly as a diesel car launched today? After all, thats what the government wants, a new car improves exhaust emissions, as well as spurring the economy.

Another point to having such stron laws is that in a country like India, atleast some of the regulations might filter down, not 100 % but atleast 20-25%. If they have laws which have a impact strength of 25% to begin with, how much of it will actually filter down?

Valid point there but again assumption that 90% will not fit the criteria, further like in Germany companies did help the consumers to change their cars to Euro 6 (if only it was Euro 4 or more) Link to the source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1OQ1LC So there should be a cutoff for the emissions where Euro 1 and Euro 2 are serious offenders, on the other hand, the provision to keep a car and treat it as a vintage (like the 30-year-old Ambassador in the above posts) should also be in place.
Also, a German car where Euro 5 norms were already in place since 2009 and Euro 6 from 2013 should not be treated the same as an Indian manufactured car where Bharat 2 and debate on Bharat 3 was being done. My car is an example of that where it has DPF installed but have to let go because of 10 year rule.

The environmental impact to change a low running car with a new one is more than keeping it running.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by Ponbaarathi

Kerala opposes Union govt’s vehicle scrapping policy, calls it unscientific
The new National Automobile Scrappage Policy introduced by the Union government is impractical and unscientific and Kerala would protest against it, said state minister for transport, Antony Raju.

Among the first in what could be some more notes of such dissents from other states. Praiseworthy that Mr Antony Raju has come out openly against the policy's scientific validity. But he asserts that the mileage done by a vehicle needs to be the criteria to scrap it. This is again fraught with many controversies like:-

- A vehicle that has done 500,000 kms (there are quite a few Toyotas in the country leading here) if maintained exceedingly well could be superior mechanically as compared to another ill-maintained vehicle that has done only 100,000 kms.

- Speedo tampering is rampant in the automobile trade and many speedo hackers do it stealthily and deftly. It doesn't come to the notice of used car buyers in hundreds of cases.

- The Transport Minister appears to be speaking on behalf of commercial (transport category) vehicle owners. Most privately owned (non-transport category) vehicles are better maintained than the commercial ones.

Lastly, the Minister has rightly said that it is only designed to benefit private automobile companies. Another valid point he makes is:-

The Centre’s justification that the policy would help reduce pollution also is fraught with problems, according to the Transport Minister. “If that were so, promoting the conversion of vehicles into LNG and CNG-fuelled ones would be more advisable,” he said.

Here we suggest that conversion of the old vehicle into an EV with a certified kit (ISI standard or the like) also needs to be added.

But in such cases of conversions, the automobile manufacturer doesn't gain through added sales, which is the main agenda of the Transport Ministry who are fully industry- centric and not people - centric.

Another news link here :-

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le35915617.ece

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by ajs85

Valid point there but again assumption that 90% will not fit the criteria, further like in Germany companies did help the consumers to change their cars to Euro 6 (if only it was Euro 4 or more)

The environmental impact to change a low running car with a new one is more than keeping it running.

Unfortunately, unlike Germany, the PUC testing is a joke in India, quality of workmanship for majority of service centres/ mechanics is shoddy and marginal at best.

And probably the main reason for using the 15 year limit is that we had transitioned from BS2 to BS3, so any vehicle at BS2 was producing approx double of the emissions as compared to BS3. This is when the vehicle is new.

Forced scrappage would mean vehicles jump from BS2 to BS6, a quantum leap in emissions control. So with the exception of a fraction of vehicles which would come under your signature line, all other vehicles renewal with lower emissions vehicle will benefit the pollution condition today.

In addition to all the above points, I just thought of one more important issue. This new BS6 fuel, being cleaner, will also have lesser lubricity and this will cause damage to these older vehicle engines in an accelerated manner (fuel pumps, fuel injectors) which would lead to much worse emissions.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by kosjam

Unfortunately, unlike Germany, the PUC testing is a joke in India, quality of workmanship for majority of service centres/ mechanics is shoddy and marginal at best.

So shouldn't the govt fix that instead of fixing something else? For example, imagine you fracture your foot, so you cannot go to the restaurant. But instead of fixing the foot, you decide to cut of your tongue, so you cannot taste food, problem solved

[anjan_c2007]

My write-up in today's The Hitavada, Nagpur edition, on the Vehicle Scrapping Policy in the Union Transport and Highways Minister's turf.