[turbo]

By 2025, India will have over 2 crore old vehicles nearing the end of their lives. These, along with other unfit vehicles, will cause huge pollution and environmental damage says a report by the Centre for Science and Environment (CSE).

Anumita Roychowdhury, executive director-research and advocacy, CSE said

“There is an enormous opportunity to turn this policy into an instrument for green recovery. Bharat Stage VI emissions standards and electric vehicle incentives are in place and polluted cities have included old vehicle phase-out as part of their clean air action under the National Clean Air Programme. The new policy must leverage these opportunities to maximise emissions gains from replacement of end-of-life vehicles and recover material from the wasted clunkers for reuse and recycling.”

Sunita Narain, director general, CSE said

“With growing motorisation and obsolescence of vehicles, cities and regions are getting burdened with junk and grossly polluting vehicles. A well-designed policy at this stage can help to renew the fleet to leverage the new investment in BS VI emissions standards and accelerate fleet electrification for clean air.”

The full report, in PDF format can be downloaded at: https://www.cseindia.org/what-to-do-...ehicles--10379

[GTO]

100 bucks says this was sponsored in some way or the other by the car industry.

The world's definition of "end of life" differs from India's. Because our car penetration levels are at merely 50 cars / 1000 citizens, no car is "end of life" here. We will keep it running and running and running, until the 5th owner has given up on the car & there is no one interested in becoming its 6th owner. Cars that are over 15 years old are happily adopted in B towns & rural areas for cheap. Just observe where all the old Altos go.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by GTO

100 bucks says this was sponsored in some way or the other by the car industry.

.

Waste of money, that is.

The auto makers and policy makers are under the impression that we don't buy their cars, or keep running old cars by choice. That everyone has money, but they just want the air quality to suffer and also to drive auto manufacturers to bankruptcy. That we've all got 15 lac rupees in the bank, but are sitting on it.

I say, let them run bs6 checks on all cars, all India, and have them scrap everything that doesn't meet standards. They got away with it in Delhi because it was a small set of people. Let them try it across India, and then sit back and enjoy the mayhem.
We have a metro that exists in a handful of cities, even if one counts insubstantial networks. Rest of public transport is screwed, guess we'll have go methane powered soon.

[Cessna182]

The moment one reads Sunita N's name, one can safely doubt the credibility of the report. This lady was behind most of the fake environment/health related cases in India and is now frequent on news channels talking about everything from Covid to climate change. She has no education related to environmental issues, and yet managed to become the reason why a lot of people lost respect for environmentalists and now treat them as camera hungry folks.

If USA, most countries in the EU, Japan and Australia can have millions of older cars, India has no business bringing in a forced scrappage policy.

[The Rationalist]

The government better don't act on this and inflict misery on the ordinary people. If they want, let them reduce taxation and make cars affordable to a larger populace. It pains to see entire families on scooters, I think if made affordable, we will be saving many young lives which are being lost on our roads. We have been sitting on the Bharat NCAP for how long, I don't know.

Besides what’s the impact on environment when a new car is built and an old car is scrapped? I haven’t seen any proper studies about the benefits of scrapping old cars. You can’t implement something as huge as this just on assumptions, scrapping cars will also result in lot of parts which won’t be recycleable.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

The ------ecycleable.

All of these arguments were offered by Delhi people and commercial organisations who were affected. We have seen that these do not work. In court, or appeals or to the government. If they've made up their minds, there will not be anything you'll be able to do protect your cars.

[KMT]

Yes in a country line India, where almost everything is recycled, it is unfair to forcibly end the life of a machine like a car on the grounds that it causes pollution.

What is the environmental cost of creating a new car?
The same activists who are campaigning for this should conduct a study on the amount of pollution creating a brand new car will cause.
Right from building a factory, extracting ore from a mine, shipping it half way around the world, generating electricity to power the factory etc.

I live in a small rural area where most workers used to travel by bus or auto, now there are several Maruti Altos that were plying in cities like Bangalore 10 years ago that have found their way into the local market as they are available at the price of a bike.

Taking these off tbe road will mean that a whole lot of people will no longer be able to afford cars.

If the government and manufacturers pay attention to proper driver training and etiquette, I am sure the financial savings from insurance claims, medical bills and loss of life will be enormous. However everyone is too lazy to do that.

[DicKy]

Great.
Another article on the paper life of vehicles (15 years).
As if a well maintained 10 year old vehicle is more harmful to the environment than a badly maintained 5 year old vehicle.

Can't test pollution properly, ban big diesels.
Can't measure tints, ban tints.
Can't have proper road worthiness tests carried out, ban old vehicles.

Really now whenever I hear NGT and motor vehicles in the same sentence, pretty sure it would be some haphazard babu thinking up stuff.
Haven't read up on it, but what is the National Green Tribunal? Judicial body? Government body?
Their actions perfectly sums up "overreach".

Instead of the walkaround, start her up, brake lighttl tests done for 15+ year vehicles, do a comprehensive road worthiness test procedure.

All these, scrap old vehicles, purchase new vehicles, save the environment (and economy) is just BS.

Main problem here is that motorists are not a pressure group here. They are too small a group in India (in total population) and are the favourite milching and whipping group.

[anjan_c2007]

There is nothing like "end of life" for motor vehicles. It is a brand new phrase coined by the vested interests with an evil eye to increase new motor vehicle, commercial sales and is in wide usage now-a-days by the media, courts and also the Union Transport Ministry officials. There is a 1905 Humber in Mumbai and a 1907 Renault Freres in Kolkata still rocking. Have these reached the end of their lives? Nowhere in the civilised world except in Japan (not exactly compulsory scrapping) are privately owned vehicles compulsorily scrapped. In Japan, the taxes rise from the 5th year onwards. Hence, many get rid of old cars, but most of those in running condition are exported to the African countries. Australia and New Zealand too buy old cars imported from Japan. France is cautious with higher taxes on old, non-classic/vintage vehicles. China has a compulsory scrapping policy, but we cannot consider this country as a civilised nation.

Let me be very clear here. My justifications are only for private motor vehicles and not for commercial vehicles of any category at all. They have their own associations and bodies to take up issues.

The developed countries are now calculating the money value or worth of these classic automobiles (30 years or older by Western standards). The total value of these old motor vehicles in many developed countries is likely to be to the tune of several billions of US dollars. FIVA, Paris, France, an apex body of Vintage Car Associations all over the world has initiated a survey to collect statistics of all such 30 plus year old motor vehicles in all countries from Associations and individual owners. It has memberships from such Associations in 71 countries, but the survey is open to one and all - be it members and non-members. FIVA terms all 30 plus year old vehicles as historic. In Germany, any motor vehicle that is 30 plus is called a Young Timer.

If we give wider publicity to this phrase "end of life" we will end up losing national wealth and obliterate a huge chunk of our industrial and mechanical history. These are irreversible losses and most of the policy makers no nothing about automobiles other than something their own official cars or personal ones, if any.

My post # 15 in this thread:-

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-sector-3.html (Will a scrappage policy be the saviour of the Indian auto sector?)

As always, I have advocated a consensual scrappage policy, solely with the consent of the owner. Exceptions should include automobiles that are declared unfit for not being compatible with the fitness norms as stipulated under the Indian Motor Vehicles Act 1988, by an authorised/ designated official. Registrations of such automobiles in the latter category are cancelled by the Registering Authority.

India is not a rich country to afford 15 year shelf lives of automobiles (only privately owned vehicles are being discussed by me here). We have the lower class, lower middle class, daily wagers, retired persons and a host of others who buy an automobile only once or twice during their lifetimes. Apart from this, we have enthusiasts who maintain very old automobiles (leaving apart the classic and vintage categories, but only focussing on the 16-49 year old automobiles) in a pristine condition, that could be 16-49 years old.

The automobiles aged 50 plus are to be soon protected as historic vehicles as per a draft notification by the Union Road Transport Ministry, that may soon become law.

Hence, the targeted 16-49 year old automobiles by the SIAM and FADA, also aided by the two major car scrappage plants being readied by Mahindra and Suzuki-Toyota need a compulsory scrappage policy for which they are tirelessly lobbying. These are sinister moves and need to be short circuited.

Yes, as the policy makers say, they will import 'end of life cars' from abroad and salvage them here in these two (plus more in future) plants, this is a welcome step. Plus unauthorised scrapping releases harmful pollutants in India and if it's done at environmental friendly and authorised plants, the risks will be lesser.

No civilised country in the world other than Japan has a compulsory 'end of life' policy for automobiles. France levies higher taxes on older, non classic/vintage automobiles. China has a compulsory scrapping policy, but we cannot list China as a civilised country, as I have said in other threads.

To counter argue with the clean air, green and pollution lobbies who say that older automobile riddance will clear the air of toxicity, the Delhi and NCR smog of winter 2019 was the worst ever, despite the fact that all older private diesel and petrol cars have been banished. These lobbies if at all they want clean air and greenery, free of pollution, must reason for incentivisation of public transport and disincentivisation of personal transport with the government.

Hence it's Utopian to think of a compulsory scrappage policy here in India and in turn a pipe dream to think that such a policy will propel sales of automobiles.

Please also check post # 34 and # 54 on this same thread by me.

[srvm]

Gents, please read (atleast) abstract of the report carefully. It says "vehicles" not "cars". Full document is 74 pages.

As per the report, by 2025, out of estimated 2.18 crore end-of-life vehicles 1.77 crore are likely to be 2-wheelers - which sounds reasonable to me. Only 0.28 crore will be private cars. I'm not saying they should be taken off the roads. Just clarifying the numbers.

See figure below taken from Page 20 of the report.



Many of us here will agree that there are many old trucks and buses spewing pollutants that deserve to be taken off the road.

[airbus]

How about ensuring cleaner fuel first? With adulterated fuel even newer vehicle may pollute. How once a year pollution test of BS-IV ensures that vehicle is not polluting? There should to be a testing mechanism to conduct pollution test in real time. There is no guarantee that vehicle under certain age will not pollute.

[srgntpepper]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Waste of money, that is.


I say, let them run bs6 checks on all cars, all India, and have them scrap everything that doesn't meet standards.

Agreed. Having a predetermined one size fits all is terrible policy.
The pollution/carbon foot print of a new car I am sure is far higher than a 15 plus year old car that runs 5k a year. If the user can demonstrate that the car meets regulations, they should be allowed to use it. OR if regulations are very tight, may be limits can be imposed on mileage. Even higher registration costs can be imposed, maybe they'll be cheaper than buying a new car.

This is just some cock and bull study to create artificial demand. It's not the government's job to prevent automakers from going bust.

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by GTO

...We will keep it running and running and running, until the 5th owner has given up on the car & there is no one interested in....

I joined my first salaried job in Sep-02 and put enough money into my parents savings account that one fine day in May-03 I was asked by my parents to come home early and meet a particular 'uncle'. I was shocked and confused and wasnt 'ready' for the big day, I was hardly 22ish!

Came home early in my Pulsar, and I find two grown up uncles, and thankfully no young lady with them! I asked my mom whats this about. She said talk to the uncle and see what he as to say.

He handed over me a typical plastic cover 'thaili', with a ragged small book and many many papers and titbits in it. It was a 1972 Amby RC book with some 16odd owners and it was my mum's many many years dream to own one.

Long story short, got my family's 1st car, the 'Alto' in june-03! Whew, I would rather been married off at 22 than own a 1972 Amby as my first car (in 2003 that is...! I love ambys as a classic though)

[indrangiri]

The only way to truly scrap an engine that does not meet the emission standards, is to ensure that the engine cannot be rerun. In the US "Cash for clunkers" incentive, the old scrapped car engines had thier engine oil drained and filled in with a mixture of water, silica and salt. The engine was then revved for 1-2 min, till it siezed.

I guess that other parts of the car can be salvaged if workable and resused in the used car market in tier 2 & 3 towns.

[DHARM]

Originally Posted by GTO

100 bucks says this was sponsored in some way or the other by the car industry.
=====
Cars that are over 15 years old are happily adopted in B towns & rural areas for cheap. Just observe where all the old Altos go.

Also the parts of non functional old cars are absorbed by functional old cars and our Jugadu Mechenics use all parts whereever possible