[kaholster]

Greetings to everyone, especially the Gurus on this website. Since this is my first post/reply, I must admit I have learnt a lot from this website. As a general intro, I am a practicing lawyer in Delhi and an automotive enthusiast. I am into this insurance / salvage repair for past 10 years as a hobby (for which my dad scolds me a lot ).

I have spent numerous nights at my friend's garage entangled in all sorts of projects. Technically or in legal terminology, there is a difference in "Road worthiness" and "Insurance Write-off". A car can be still road worthy but might have been written off by an insurance company (examples will be submitted later). Even in day-to-day life, if any common man bangs his car with front damage and gets it repaired by the company and after a few days again bangs it in the same region, there is no legal limit imposed to the number of times you can claim insurance. So similarly, if the car still has a live registration and the insurance company renews the insurance after inspection, there is nothing illegal in that. However, problems will crop up if the safety feature like airbags have been compromised.

It has been already discussed that there are several categories of insurance write-offs, such as repairable, non repairable etc. But, for me there are only two main categories:

1) Cars which come with transfer papers from insurance companies (except for totally non-repairable ones)
2) Cars which don't come with transfer papers and are solely meant for salvage parts (some dubious dealers sell these also to remote states and arrange for fake papers. There are cases of these types also).

The ones with papers go in for a new registrations after repair in any state, and are inspected by the RTO office and insurance for road worthiness. Legally, it is the safest method to get the car on the road since you get double clearance certificates. What I have seen, is people getting zero depreciation insurance on a salvage repaired vehicle and again getting a full insurance claim.

It is a complete myth that vehicle's road worthiness can't be brought back to the original state once a vehicle is involved in a serious accident. For a better understanding, kindly download the Jaguar XF workshop manual (I studied recently) which clearly depicts cutting of parts from basic structure of vehicle for repair purposes. The videos of methods adopted by the Russian guy Arthur are completely in compliance with the ones provided in workshop manual. I also adopt the exact same principles while bringing back a vehicle to life.

But, India being a land of yogis and the most unscrupulous people in the world too, there are workshops in Delhi which claim to be experts in salvage repairs. Famous ones are Naveen Sir's one in Wazirabad, then another one in Kakrola Mor near Dwarka, then there are a few posh vehicle sellers Ashok Vihar Mkt, Rajouri Garden, and Vasant Kunj who are openly selling these vehicles after repairing. However the main points of concern are as follows :-

1. Airbags which they don't restore to original condition and original numbers and risk the lives of the buyer. What they use is a 2.2 to 3.3 Ohms resister and a stupid scanner will fail to detect the difference in "airbag or no airbag".
   
2. Cheap fuel lines and sub standard parts (non OEM rings and clamps) which may put someone's life at risk one day. Petrolheads be careful when you buy high end cars.
   
3. Repaired wiring (desi jugad - cut and fold) which obviously results in sparking, especially after washing or when the temperature rises as local insulation melts away if its touching any metal part.
   
4. Counterfeit Chinese brake parts and suspension disintegrating while driving.
   
5. Tampered meters where LED lights of the airbag and other warning lights are soldered to the check engine light, so as to function normally. Even if there is no warning light, do scan the car first.
   
6. Last but not least, sub standard / non prescribed oil especially for the transmission and power steering (this one is the slowest poisons and the deadliest too).
   
7. After using a spot welder, new metal piece / part and little skill, very few people can tell the difference in an original piece and an accidental one. Most of these workshops refrain from using good condition second hand parts just to save a few bucks.

A few of us must have visited the Cars24 Store where they check the density / layers of paint with their electronic pulse devices (Chinese, of course) to measure the original paint layers, but there are masters of paint in Delhi who can match it to the exact number of original layers .

It's been a long journey since I myself fell into this trap of being sold a salvage repaired Pajero in 2010 which gave me a new direction to swim into and I have not turned back since then. The list of project vehicles I have worked on is as follows-

1. Audi A4 (frontal and side impact), A6 (flood affected - electrical modules replaced and recoded).
   
2. BMW F10 520d (rear damage) and one 525d (commercial one / non salvage) - engine and transmission ZF-8 rebuild, plus chassis replacement.
   
3. Mercedes ML 250 (this project I took on for a friend).
   
4. Jaguar XF S 2016 3.0d which I recently brought back to life and am presently driving.

Each of these cars I have personally driven for 20-30K kms and sold them only after proper testing. I am from Himachal, so the testing of the vehicle is always done on long routes and tough terrains. With the grace of the almighty, not even a single knocking have I faced in these cars. I try my level best to use original parts and maintain torque specs for even small nuts and bolts.

Apart from these, I have also owned a Mitsubishi Lancer, Accent, Tata Safari 2.2. VTT (my college love affair), Pajero 2.8, Montero 3.2, two Skoda Lauras which really taught me about scanning, Passat, Toyota Camry 2.4, Audi A6 and BMW 525.

Lessons learnt in these years.

Most the the famous scanning places in Delhi know zilch about these vehicles. Very few people know exactly what is wrong and how to solve it. Most of them rely on forum support, YouTube videos and other info on the net, which I think any 12th standard passed guy with a bit of enthusiasm can do.

Obviously, there are high tech guys also present in and around Delhi, but when it comes to fees, the story changes. Till now, I tried my hands on Ross Tech 17.8, Delphi DS150, VDM, JLR SDD and have succeeded after a few attempts. With God's grace, I have been able to revive the transmission of the BMW 525d, Audi A4 and my dad's Passat B6, which was declared as faulty by so called famous workshops in Delhi (I can't reveal the names, but I have travelled at length to see their real knowledge and faces). Just owning a costly launch scanner or outdated Rheingold for BMW does not make anyone a boss. Even a cheap Chinese scanner can solve big issues.

2) Sourcing of parts

Metal parts such as chassis, bonnet fenders, bumpers etc. can be sourced from Jama Masjid or Mayapuri Delhi, but they are also the biggest cheats on the face of the earth. Best alternative is to buy them from ebay.co.uk - even their used parts are in extremely good condition or you can bring the parts yourself from abroad. Everything I ordered from Ebay (eg. brand new Hella radiator, intercooler, condenser) cost 30% lesser than what the Palika Bhawan / Delhi guys had quoted. I got a complete dashboard plus 6 piece airbag plus module for 1/3rd of the quote, even after inclusion of DHL courier charges, IGST and customs charges.

3) These repaired high-end vehicles are safer and cheaper than a new mid-segment car, provided you know what repairs have been carried out and the method.

4) Everyone is fond of these masterpieces of engineering, especially German and British ones. So, there is nothing ethically wrong if one can lay hands on these beauties if you know how to handle them without the help of authorised workshops.

I apologise if I have hurt the sentiments of anyone. Just like anyone else, I am always open to learning, whichever form it may come in. Please correct me if I am wrong somewhere.

A few pics of the Jaguar are attached below.

[GTO]

Thanks for sharing, Kaholster! Such a useful post that I'm moving it to a new thread. Hope you keep posting more often .

Learned a lot from your post. I understand there is a lot of value in accidental / salvage / total loss cars, but the fact is that 99.99% of Indian car buyers (myself included) simply don't have the time or inclination to bother with these cars. I personally wouldn't go anywhere near them. Have also driven a few of these, and in one way or the other (e.g. high speed behaviour, NVH, steering feel etc.), they are simply not perfect.

Of course, there are many other fans of the bargains these cars can provide. Here are some related threads:

Salvage C-Class (A Gamble that Paid off: C-Class Mercedes W203)

Salvage X-Trail (Nissan X-trail When I bought It)

Salvage Supercars (An economical guide to rebuilding a bashed up supercar)

Crashed cars for sale (Carjinn.com - Accident Cars for Sale in India)

UK Scam (The great British write-off cars scandal! Crashed cars repaired & sold with clean history)

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by kaholster

It is a complete myth that vehicle' s road worthiness can't be brought back to the original state once a vehicle is involved in a serious accident. For a better understanding, kindly download the Jaguar XF workshop manual (I studied recently) which clearly depicts cutting of parts from basic structure of vehicle for repair purposes .The videos of methods adopted by the Russian guy Arthur are completely in compliance with the ones provided in workshop manual. I also adopt the exactly same principles while bringing back a vehicle to life.

Thanks a lot of reaffirming my belief that any car can be repaired provided quality work is done using the right parts. I know some guys who got rid of their cars at a huge financial burden when their cars met with an accident. In one particular case, the insurance payout was just 50% of the pending loan amount and he had to take a substantial financial hit on it.

[ghodlur]

Originally Posted by kaholster

The ones with papers go in for a new registration after repair in any state, and are inspected by the RTO office and insurance for road worthiness. Legally, it is the safest method to get the car on road since you get double clearance certificates. What I have seen is people getting zero depreciation insurance on a salvage repaired vehicle and again getting a full insurance claim.

Isnt this a scam? Insurance co which has declared the vehicle un repairable and subsequently un road worthiness, with the transfer of papers does allow the car to be repaired and provide Insurance for the same after re -registration. Who provides the road worthiness certificate for such cars? In badly mangled cars does the above scenario holds good? Who supports the structural integrity confirmation of the such cars?

[Kosfactor]

Legal hassles aside, Buying any used car comes with it's set of risks!

If you know the history of the car personally, there is less risk in buying it, but knowing a car has had a salvage repair and still buying it is probably asking for trouble. Will the repair be OEM quality? I doubt.

Assuming there are cases the car is simply expensive to repair rather than unsafe to repair etc etc , but how do we know the difference?

At the end of the day , a 60L car is still a 60L when it comes to maintenance regardless of the fact that you have paid Honda City money for it.

I will go with salvage repair only for cars that need to be preserved, classic cars or limited production exotics.

[kumaranurag]

You know I've been watching these YouTube channels like Tavarish, goonzquad and It really amazes me how well they repair those vehicles, I don't think rebuilding these insurance write-offs is a bad idea as long as you're doing it right but yeah, it depends upon the availability & cost of parts which unlike here, you can get easily & much cheaper in the US. I personally want to get my hands on such projects, but I have no clue of where we can purchase these wrecked cars.

[ajmat]

The ones with papers go in for a new registrations after repair in any state, and are inspected by the RTO office and insurance for road worthiness. Legally, it is the safest method to get the car on the road since you get double clearance certificates. What I have seen, is people getting zero depreciation insurance on a salvage repaired vehicle and again getting a full insurance claim.

A eye opening thread. However, does an RTO inspector or an insurance assessor in India really have the qualifications, tools and competence to actually assess a cars roadworthiness?

[car love]

A person i know bought an Accident damaged vehicle which i had gone to see. The front of the vehicle had suffered the impact but not much and it looked like a good deal. After buying the vehicle, problems started cropping up like mentioned by GTO. What basically had happened was that shock waves from the impact had travelled down the body and basically ruined the chassis although it looked very mild. In modern cars having uni body construction, its design dictates maximum survivablity of passengers and not the vehicle. The vehicle is used as a sacrificial tool to meet that end. IMO one should go for such vehicles after very careful scrutiny and access to very modern repair facilities...

[kaholster]

Hello everyone.

Many thanks to GTO, who felt it worthwhile for starting a separate thread on his topic. There seems to be lots of black clouds around salvage repaired cars. I will try to answer a few doubts according to my knowledge.

Q. It is advisable to invest in these salvage repaired cars or not?
Answer to the above question : Investment or not, totally depends upon the time you can afford to give to your car and whether you rely on other mechanics to repair your car. For guys like me, cars are not merely a mode of transportation nor do I live to drive. What I enjoy is achieving the mechanical perfection of any machinery. Even I would not suggest to anyone who has working hours and who have to totally rely on mechanics for repairing their cars to invest in these sorts of activities. On the contrary, I would advise them as a friend to avoid them. If one has the financial capacity, then why bother to immerse your hands in garbage unless it is your passion to see dead things come alive?

But there are lots of DIY guys like me on this forum, who like to take matters in their own hand, are not afraid to get their hands dirty and for whom cars are more of an utmost expression of artistic and muscular creativity.

Q. Are these salvage repaired cars a part of a scam by insurance companies?
A. Sir, as a lawyer, I can say that at present, there is no law in the country under which you can book insurance companies for selling salvaged cars. There is a similar example in the banking sector also:- if a loan A/C is declared NPA (non performing asset), it is well within the bank's power to sell such an NPA to some asset reconstruction company (ARC) to make good of its losses. Now, the ARC steps into the shoes of the original creditor. Bank is the sole deciding authority to determine at what price this NPA has to be sold. It is nobody else's headache to intervene at what price it is done.

Similarly, if an insurance company decides to sell off its liability (in this case a salvaged car of any category except for ones without papers) at an extremely low price, nobody can intervene or ask them the reason for the reduced price. It is the question of civil liability in which third party has no rights.

While buying such cars through auction agents, the major white transaction amount (except commission fee of the agent) goes directly into the account of the registered owner and not the insurance company or it may also be paid to the bank in cases of HPA. Insurance companies are much more informed about legal loopholes and how to avoid them.

They could have been booked under law of torts had English law of torts been applicable in India too. But yes, if someone personally /dealership has sold these cars to you without prior information about previous damage then it would constitute an offence under I.P.C. for cheating. But in that scenario too, one has to contest a case in the court, wherein, other parties can openly say that the buyer must have banged it after purchase and got it repaired and now to extort money or to lower the image of the dealership, one is trying to put the blame on the seller. In that scenario, the game would then depend upon the scientific evidence.

Q. Road worthiness?
A. Again it is a myth that the insurance company gives any road worthiness/unworthiness certificate while selling the salvaged vehicle. One member has asked whether the R.T.O. has the equipment to check road worthiness of a car or not and on what basis do they allow these repaired cars to run. Sir, apart from the Motor Vehicle Act of India, every state has separate M.V. rules and state amendments too. Before granting a certificate of registration, it is the duty of the M.V.I. to inspect the vehicle physically and only afterwards, the M.L.O. grants registration. I will not discuss whether they actually do it or not since that aspect will open a Pandora's box. But yes, they are well equipped. In Delhi, Burari Authority they have a testing facility where all new cars are tested before being launched. Similarly other states also have facilities to test vehicles.

Q. Structural integrity of a repaired vehicle?
A. This question reminded me of Amitabh Bachchan sir's movies dialog, wherein, on his forehand it was written "mera baap chor hai" (I do not remember the name of movie), "jao pehle uss aadmi ka sign lekar aao". Reason for this, I'll show with an attached image of a 2019 Suzuki Baleno which I took a few days back (P.S. removed headlight, region marked in yellow circle). Who the hell allowed these cars to roll on the roads? The entire support from front apron to A-pillar is missing. I would say that first, the Govt. should take action against these huge brands who are selling these dangerous machines in India.

Coming back to structural integrity of high end cars, I have worked on 4 major brands, namely VAG, BMW ,Mercedes and Jaguar. Their bodies are made of high quality steel and aluminium. I am attaching 8 pdf pages of Jaguar's official repair manual to this post. The manual specifies the types of holes to be drilled from removal of part, quality of metal i.e. steel or aluminium, dimensions or distance between bolts (left to right) and type of welding such as MAG, MIG, TIG, spot etc. The manual also specifies the types of cutting tools and marking lines (where to cut) in cases of replacement of metal sheet parts.

Do check out the Pdf pages.

All these specifications can be mentioned in a workshop manual only after ascertaining the structural integrity of a vehicle in crash tests which these high end companies conduct. If the work has been carried out as per the specs provided in the manual, then I don't have any doubt that the original integrity or strength will again be returned to original condition. I have personally witnessed this as in one of the cars which we had worked on had an impact 2 years later on the same front right side. This time, the bend was not at the same spot, but 10 inches further than that spot.

Just for the sake of an example I'll post a few pics of an overturned Toyota Fortuner and a Ford Endeavour. I think the pictures will show the difference in real structural integrity of a vehicle and how safe your family is inside it. Just to mention, the Endeavour crashed at a higher speed than the Fortuner.

Q. After effects of accident/shock waves?
A. Sir, these modern cars are full of tiny sensors everywhere. So undoubtedly, these shock waves can weaken the electronic circuits as well as sensors. These sensors might be working initially, but later on, they just might die unnatural deaths. But how long does it takes to change a sensor or a module? With right tools (scanner) and replacement parts, it is just a matter of few minutes if you know the job. But the chances of failure of sensors is present in newer cars also, especially due to the rough roads in India. These high end cars generally come with low profile tyres and even a hard bump on the road can lead to a desoldered joint in a module or failed sensor.

Q. Damage to chassis ?
A. Sir, today most of the cars have separate front and rear chassis . Even if your chassis has a slight bend at some point, but the bolts are coming to exact point and the alignment guy can tune up the alignment to perfection i.e. toe in, camber and steering alignment, there is no harm in using an old chassis too (I don't see any other function of a chassis). Both front and rear chassis have scope for error and correction in placement of 4 major bolts. If however, the damage is beyond the scope of correction, it is comparatively easy to change the same.

There are few more pics of the Jaguar. One piece I was not able to get new/second hand. So I fabricated a similar metal piece and welded the same. Although the finish is not perfect, something is better than nothing.

In the end, I would say that as far as safety is concerned, I feel much safer in these cars rather than risking my life in some new car with very poor structural integrity. All the big car manufactures who boast about crash results of their cars are doing it in a controlled environment. Accidents, on the contrary, happen in surprising ways. I have doubts if someone can escape serious injuries if any one rear ends the vehicle in any truck or bus. Whereas, even in these repaired Audis and Beemers, chances of your survival are many times higher.

My apologies for any harsh reply or comment.

[kiku007]

Very interesting thread and it's quite rare to see threads like these where people actually do some serious stuff.

It's pointless to bring the Baleno as an example for modern cars when discussing about safety.

Originally Posted by kaholster

It is a complete myth that vehicle's road worthiness can't be brought back to the original state once a vehicle is involved in a serious accident.

Myth?

The restricting factors are,
1. Cost
2. Time
3. Risk. How to prove the roadworthiness post the repairs?
4. Reliability

End of the day, is it worth the money, time, risk and peace of mind? To each his own I suppose.

You have opened a pandora's box by implying that a salvaged Luxury car is safer than a brand new economy car. May be yes or may be not and there's no objective way to prove this.

[MileCruncher]

A very interesting article. Also good to see that there are enthusiast who want to get their hands dirty and engage in these complicated projects. This is a huge learning experience for me and hence will be looking forward to detailed reports about these reconstructions.

[Turbanator]

A Lawyer and Mechanic! wow, hope you are not a Transporter

Welcome to the Forum. Your posts have been very useful, Thanks for sharing. We look forward to more of such information.

Originally Posted by kaholster

If A insurance company decides to sell of it liability(in this case a salvaged car of any category except for ones without papers) at an extremely reduced price then also nobody can intervene or ask them the reason for reduced prices.

Correct, but ethically it's not correct. In past, If I am not mistaken, Insurance surveyors will get the replaced parts cut by gas or got those into pieces so that these cannot be salvaged or sold to unsuspecting buyers, looks what you have mentioned is about the Cars that are sold to Scrap dealers on As is where Is basis and these guys no longer cut those to pieces for the sake of money. Wonder, if they used to have a policy on the replacement parts, what stops them do similar on the complete car- maybe a competition or just greed?

just for the sake of example i ll post few pics of an overturned Toyota Fortuner and a Ford Endeavour .I think the pictures will show the difference in real structural integrity of a vehicle and how safe your family is inside it. Just to mention Endeavour was in more speed than Fortuner.

I am sure Endeavour customer/ fans will be very happy to see these pictures and your comments

BTW, the Yellow circled Baleno- I am not able to understand, is this left without support by Maruti on new cars? Like there is a hole but they have not provided any support?

[Jeroen]

Thanks for a very informative thread.

These days it is quite remarkable what is technically feasible when it comes to repairing cars that were in bad crashes.

A good friend of mine runs a repair/salvage shop in Kansas City. He deals exclusively with insurance write-offs. Still makes a business out of it.

With modern technology some of the repaired cars are brought to even tighter specifications then when they left the factory brand new.

Even so, I will be honest. I am not sure I would feel comfortable buying such a car. I have seen my friend at work, and it is very impressive and there is nothing, other than the paper work, that shows such a car was in a massive crash.

Buying cars is never on rational consideration alone of course

Jeroen

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not sure I would feel comfortable buying such a car.

Me neither! Which is why I don't consider buying used. Would only ever buy used if I knew the seller personally. (Of course, personal preference, am sure there are several buyers who have the mechanical know-how to make informed decisions, I'm just not one of those.)

Which brings us to the question, while selling, does the selling company make it a point to mention that this is a salvage vehicle? Or is the significantly lower price the only clue?

[VineetG]

Originally Posted by kaholster

I am into this insurance / salvage repair for past 10 years as a hobby (for which my dad scolds me a lot ).

I have spent numerous nights at my friend's garage entangled in all sorts of projects.

What a treasure trove of information and experience you would be having, having worked on so many cars on probably all aspects on their mechanics, electricals, electronics and body parts.

It would be great if you could share details of some good mechanics/denter painters/car electronics experts whom you trust.

This kind of information would be invaluable.

Rgds