[jetsetgo08]

Originally Posted by DriverR

That said, our office's 3rd party car fleet vendor still uses Innova. At least they have always provided Innova's for our office use, never Ertiga.

True. Ertiga is one of the most VFM cars. Multiple seat/luggage configuration options + a very good 2nd row AC + Maruti peace of mind + National Engine are some of the reasons for success.
Although there is no replacement to Innova, all the erstwhile Chevrolet Enjoy's (a major chunk) being used for office cab fleet would slowly be replaced with the Ertiga's. For those who own Ertiga, expect an even better resale value in the near future.

[uthra]

Originally Posted by gowda79

TASS has been patchy up north. But South India. The TASS has been excellent.

Tata has been working hard on trying to get rid of its erstwhile image but just like Rome wasn't built in a day, perceptions too are a long time in making and once made, they also take a long time to change or break. MSIL and even to some extent Hyundai are reaping the rewards of winning the perception battle built over the past 20-plus years. People continue to think MSIL cars are easy, low and cheap maintenance but that's not true anymore.
M&M churned out Verito and even now the KUV and the TUV but it continues to be seen as good enough for making Scorpios and Boleros, where it continues to command respect (right or wrong, again, it's a matter of perception). Tata, on the other continues to been as a "truck and bus maker" and has not been helped by poor customer handling over the years. It has changed definitely and the company is working hard but it will take time. Tiago, hopefully, has set the beginning.
It's the same for others. The cheapest Audi or Mercedes in India cost around 30 lakhs. But a Hyundai Santa Fe that also costs around the same would never be able to match up in bragging stakes.
Ford has been advertising a lot about its low cost maintenance and actually targeting to remove the perception of being difficult to own but sadly that doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.
The biggest factor we seem to be overlooking is the fact that people in India are still influenced a lot by what their friends, neighbours or relatives think about a certain model or maker, even if they haven't owned one themselves. And then there is the re-sale question, which is connected and which also influences a lot of decisions even though in the long run it doesn't make much difference (provided one keeps a car for at least 5-6 years or more).

[romeomidhun]

1. Datsun GO+: Even with this cheaper 7-seater, they are struggling to sell it in decent numbers
2. Figo at 1K levels proves how the competitors have advanced, compared to the times when the first gen Figo was selling around 5K per month.
3. Ecosport: an ever green model for Ford.
4. City sales are falling thanks to the WR-V effect?
5. Can Hyundai make a come back in the sedan segment? Verna lost all the sheen.
6. Will Mahindra ever learn that their contraptions like Nuvosport and Vibe are such a dud?
7. Ignis numbers and its recent advertisements show all is not well with the car. Ritz, in its golden times (when Swift was on waiting period), sold 6-7K per month.
8. Ciaz's shifting to Nexa has helped Ertiga numbers, IMO.
9. Kwid is losing its charisma?
10. Scala, where are you?
11. Many 3-digit numbers for old Tata products, but they proved they can do it like Tiago.
12. Toyota has to bring a smaller 5/7 seater MUV like Avanza.
13. Will VW agree that Ameo was a failed effort, which back-fired with reduced numbers of Vento?

Originally Posted by volkman10

Here are the segment leaders

Maruti is leading all the segments in which it is present. Whether with their multi-model or single model approach, they are able to maintain the leads. A bigger Ertiga and a 7-seater Vitara will complement their line-up.

The fight in the SUV segment - the only one in which Maruti is not present - will be an interesting one once they brings a 7-seater Vitara. If it will compete with XUV at a much lesser price point, the SUV segment also can be led by them, IMO.

[nareshtrao]

Originally Posted by GTO

Sad? Ford is actually very happy with the Endeavour's sales. We have to understand that it isn't necessary to be the no.1 to be successful, and not every brand aspires to do so. Why is Ford happy?

1. It's selling 4 - 6 times more than the old Endeavour ever did.

2. Proves that people are willing to spend 30 lakhs on a Ford. That wasn't the case with Chevrolet, Nissan & many others (including Hyundai).

3. F-A-T profits.

Absolutely right. This is perhaps the most accurate assessment. Ford never intended to sell more than ~500 units per month as it seems. Given that this is practically a CKD with only Indian parts being Tires and some parts of Wiring Harness, they sure have constraints on how many kits they can import against the exports they make to ensure they make profits and do not suffer huge taxes eating into margins. This is a clever math.

Further, given that more than 50% of their manufacturing is for exports, they are constrained by common assembly lines also rolling out other models.

Lastly, as you rightly said, another key objective was to to have a flagship which can command a high price (You said 30 L - it's actually 40L+ OTR in many cities - and that is the price consumer sees) and also establish the brand in the upper region. I think they successfully achieved it and in the bargain got some kind of cult status to Endeavour and hence attracting enthusiasts.

Net net it is a Win-Win for Ford.

Their only problem is the market share and overall domestic profits which is putting pressure on India management - and for that they have some more hard work to do apart from the current brand campaign. Get better dealer experience all across and also low maintenance - both of which they seem to working on.

[gopalnt]

Originally Posted by uthra

Tata has been working hard on trying to get rid of its erstwhile image but just like Rome wasn't built in a day, perceptions too are a long time in making and once made, they also take a long time to change or break.

I had a TATA Nano XTA and sold it within a year, not because of the product but because of the service I got from multiple service centres. When I bought a Manza in 2010, I had to undergo terrible service from two TATA dealers and sold the car in frustration. When I bought the Nano in 2016, I was confident that TATA would have done a turnaround on their service. I did drop my past baggage with TATA and purchased Nano. But alas, I was proved wrong once again, even after 6 years. No problem was fixed first time right or worse, some of them were not fixed at all. Either they looked incapable or disinterested. I vowed never to buy another TATA car again.

[uthra]

Originally Posted by gopalnt

I had a TATA Nano XTA and sold it within a year, not because of the product but because of the service I got from multiple service centres. When I bought a Manza in 2010, I had to undergo terrible service from two TATA dealers and sold the car in frustration. When I bought the Nano in 2016, I was confident that TATA would have done a turnaround on their service. I did drop my past baggage with TATA and purchased Nano. But alas, I was proved wrong once again, even after 6 years. No problem was fixed first time right or worse, some of them were not fixed at all. Either they looked incapable or disinterested. I vowed never to buy another TATA car again.

Sorry to hear of your experience. Admittedly, the group needs to work really hard on getting its first Point of Contact and service with customers in order before it can think of growing in the market. Sadly, when the fewer outlets you have, the less chances of hiding behind poor customer.

[Varun_HexaGuy]

Originally Posted by gopalnt

I had a TATA Nano XTA and sold it within a year, not because of the product but because of the service I got from multiple service centres. When I bought a Manza in 2010, I had to undergo terrible service from two TATA dealers and sold the car in frustration. When I bought the Nano in 2016, I was confident that TATA would have done a turnaround on their service. I did drop my past baggage with TATA and purchased Nano. But alas, I was proved wrong once again, even after 6 years. No problem was fixed first time right or worse, some of them were not fixed at all. Either they looked incapable or disinterested. I vowed never to buy another TATA car again.

Contrary to your experience, I had a very good experience with the TASS as I happened to tackle with them for over a couple of minor issues in my Hexa. From my experience, I can vouch that this is probably one of the best after-sales experience that I've experienced.

[abhi7013]

Originally Posted by vharihar

Also, other than the Hexa's engine, other Tata engines have for far too long been a dud, and such reputations are hard to shed easily (I'm not even going into ASS). Look at the pickup of Storme/Sumo, and compare with Scorpio/Bolero, and we see a world of difference! The Mahindras are so much more fun to drive. I dread getting stuck behind an Indica in Blore, my motto being "Never get stuck behind an Indica, they drive like bullock carts". Indeed, it almost feels like Tata makes trucks that drive like cars (in terms of being under-powered) and cars that drive like trucks (in terms of lack of refinement).

The same bullock cart your referring to was around for more than a decade and that in itself is testimony to quality.

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[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by gopalnt

I had a TATA Nano XTA and sold it within a year, not because of the product but because of the service I got from multiple service centres. When I bought a Manza in 2010, I had to undergo terrible service from two TATA dealers and sold the car in frustration. When I bought the Nano in 2016, I was confident that TATA would have done a turnaround on their service. I did drop my past baggage with TATA and purchased Nano. But alas, I was proved wrong once again, even after 6 years. No problem was fixed first time right or worse, some of them were not fixed at all. Either they looked incapable or disinterested. I vowed never to buy another TATA car again.

Originally Posted by Varun_HexaGuy

Contrary to your experience, I had a very good experience with the TASS as I happened to tackle with them for over a couple of minor issues in my Hexa. From my experience, I can vouch that this is probably one of the best after-sales experience that I've experienced.

The couple of dealings I have had with the 'new' TASS regarding my Hexa have been very prompt and helpful. Prior, to this, I have dealt with Maruti, Honda, Mahindra and the old Tata service and support system. What Tata currently has is by far the best experience I have had for after sales.

[uthra]

Originally Posted by abhi7013

The same bullock cart your referring to was around for more than a decade and that in itself is testimony to quality.

Difference of opinion can exist without getting nasty. Someone felt Tata cars are like bullock carts - - that's his view. Someone else felt TASS service was pathetic, that's his experience. A third didn't agree, he had a great experience and that's good too. Elsewhere people have been either highly praising or critical of other makes and manufacturers also. That's the beauty of an open forum. Unless a post is blatantly defamatory, every view should be welcomed.

Peace.

[sarmarishi]

Great analysis but is there no data from Isuzu? Would like to know how the Isuzu Dmax Vcross is doing!

[uthra]

Just came across this from Drivespark, which attributes the data to SIAM. While the AutoPunditz data quoted at the beginning of this thread puts Tata at 6th, this report puts it at 4th, ahead of both Toyota and Honda with over 12k units. What could explain the discrepancy? Of course, these are domestic sales numbers, as per SIAM.

http://www.drivespark.com/four-wheel...39-022487.html

[King_pin09]

This month of May seems to have left some manufacturers dry, Tata in particular. With Hexa and Tigor tipping off in sales, Tatas might be just wondering, "When we presented bad cars people bought them merrily but kept complaining. When we brought good cars, people praised them whole heartedly, but stayed away from buying.”

This only goes on to explain as how difficult it would be (in a competitive market as ours) to wipe off and rise up from a clinging image, once it has been earned.

Ciaz, as expected, seems to have become an "Exclusive Car", after shifting to Nexa. With close to 33% fall in sales, MSIL must be getting sleepless nights. However MSIL will continue to paste a bony smile on their face, as long as the City numbers stay behind. Ciaz however, remains the (struggling?) king of C2 segment sedans.

I must confess, I am yet to find/ spot a brand new FIAT car on our streets. I keep wondering, where these 340 odd cars that FIAT rolled out during last month, are picked. They carry the ‘critically endangered species’ tag in our country.

Kwid, Redigo and Jazz seems to be losing on some grounds. I keep wondering as what new strategy these auto makers would adapt to push sales and its real time effect, which only time will tell.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by GTO

Sad? Ford is actually very happy with the Endeavour's sales.

Originally Posted by nareshtrao

Ford never intended to sell more than ~500 units per month as it seems.

Why would Ford refuse an opportunity for a potential sale?

How would restricting supply as such add to exclusivity or wow factor to a car, at least in the market segment that the Endeavour sells in?

And if Ford get F-A-T profits from just 500 unit sales, wouldn't that profit margin grow even bigger with higher sales figures (unless Ford are selling Endeavours below cost prices) ?

If production constraints are there, wouldn't it be a more sound strategy to allocate more production capacities to a 30L+ car with chances for better margins than a sub 10L car (which is slow moving anyway)?

Outside Maruti/ Hyundai/ Toyota brigade, Ford have perhaps the most number of dealer outlets. So wouldn't it make more sense to make something that is fast moving available to those dealers?

One more thing, perhaps outside Europe, Ford are nowadays better known as a truck/ SUV company. So the EcoSport and the Endeavour hold better chances of market acceptance any day.

I sincerely hope Ford gets their priorities right.

[nareshtrao]

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Why would Ford refuse an opportunity for a potential sale?

And if Ford get F-A-T profits from just 500 unit sales, wouldn't that profit margin grow even bigger with higher sales figures (unless Ford are selling Endeavours below cost prices) ?

Outside Maruti/ Hyundai/ Toyota brigade, Ford have perhaps the most number of dealer outlets. So wouldn't it make more sense to make something that is fast moving available to those dealers?

One more thing, perhaps outside Europe, Ford are nowadays better known as a truck/ SUV company. So the EcoSport and the Endeavour hold better chances of market acceptance any day.

I sincerely hope Ford gets their priorities right.

Let me attempt to explain using the common principles used by companies in India based on taxation laws and practices, though I can not claim that these are wholly applicable to Ford. But, in general, are logical knowing how Indian Import and Export related taxation works.

Ford Endeavour is largely a CKD and all parts are imported from various Ford plants across the world. Ford also exports around 70 - 80k units of various other models to different markets in the world. Roughly close to 60% of what they manufacture.

Now, any company exporting a significant chunk of its production in India enjoys a tax relief/benefit on its imports which suffer a lower duty and hence the amount of imports enjoying such tax relief are limited by the volume/gross rupee/$ terms of the corresponding exports. Ford uses that relief to price the Endeavour competitively and still make a hefty margin on the volumes they sell.

Another part of the equation here - This specific model is pitched against much higher priced models in other markets like Toyota Prado and not Fortuner as is the case in India. Also Ford had no option but to pitch against Fortuner as that was the only established mass SUV in the large segment.

If Ford did not enjoy the tax benefit, for it to make the same profit, the price would have been over 45 L or more which would then make it sell in single digit numbers. Hence Ford has to restrict the number of kits they import to ensure that the kits are taxed at a level where they have the margins they desire. Now, correspondingly, if Ford wants to sell over 1000 units of Endeavour a month, it has to ensure it exports over 150k units of other models from India plants to other markets, which is not the case in the near foreseeable future.

Last but not the least, since Toyota is an example of competition, let me bring to light that Toyota has over 80% local content including the engine which is manufactured in their India plant in Bangalore. Despite that they have priced it exorbitantly and make super hefty margins.

Hope this explains. There could be other experts in the forum who can throw better light. But I have attempted to the best of my knowledge :-)

On the other point, you are right. Ford has the serious SUV underpinnings and heritage. F150 Raptor is a legend and Ranger is a well known SUV for all of US. Those are the parents of Endeavour/Everest.

Also, you are right. Ford is the 4th largest manufacturer in India but it does not show in their Domestic sales.

Footnote: I neither work for Ford nor get any benefits from them - these are mere discussion points :-)