[Sheel]

Originally Posted by drifter

Having a 4x4 Low Range in a heavy SUV is more of a requirement because of the weight and not necessarily the severity of an obstacle because clearly the Alturas/Endeavour/Fortuners are not meant to be mountain goats. For that one must buy a Gurkha/Gypsy/Thar.

Hi!

Of course I am not comparing a full fledged SUV with the bare bones [maybe more capable] ones.

What I was/am comparing is the Alturas with the likes of Fortuner/Endeavor.
And when comparing them, I find the approach angle to be too low for a full fledged SUV with 4L. For eg - the Hexa has an approach angle of 21/22 degrees.

While the numbers may not tell all the story but a 10 degree difference is huge in my opinion [for the same segment] and this is what I wanted to say, I have nothing more to add.

[drifter]

I understand that. However, I'm just arguing against the trend that a Toyota/Ford 4WD is automatically good and a Mahindra/Tata 4WD is automatically bad.

The 10 degree difference if true is significant, I agree. However, 99% of the owners will not explore anywhere near that to really put it into perspective. And even the Fortuner/Endeavour off-road drivers who are serious about their off-roading will always change the bumper to get more angle.

Again, these are mostly road going vehicles with some added capability. We must see them using those set of glasses. But to each his own.

I still say, proof is in the driving. After driving, if one feels the Alturas is not good, then please do report by all means.

[vigneshkumar31]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Hope, the guys reading this thread can make out what's showcasing and what's actual real-world stuff.

Of course the readers can make out the difference @Turbanator . Even if not the script and graphics, the Rexton's driver has a nice helmet on! of course its a promo.

Jokes apart, I did not post the video to claim that the G4 is the best dune basher of the lot, its just that I felt that the Alturas may not be that bad that we cannot even imagine it in these scenarios.Sure, it may not be able to do the gnarly stuff, or trump over the Endy/T fort off-road, but at least on paper, it seems to pack adequate kit to handle some sand. Though it was a showcase, the video just demonstrated that capability to me. I just didn't want to write off the G4 completely yet.

I’m not an Offroad expert and lack your experience off the Tarmac to comment on the specs. I’m in fact that very guy you mentioned..I don’t venture Offroad usually but want to try a thing or two with the car when I feel a little adventurous...and for folk like me, the angles, if they are true, might not really break the deal. (But they may break the bumper if I try something stupid though )

Originally Posted by Sheel

While the numbers may not tell all the story but a 10 degree difference is huge in my opinion [for the same segment] and this is what I wanted to say, I have nothing more to add.

But I agree, for members like @sheel who are looking for more Offroad oriented use for commute/work/recreation these numbers do matter. He is well within his right to express his disappointment with the numbers.

Though @drifter has aptly mentioned that these vehicles must be viewed through the right lens...I think We all react to new cars based on our personal usage profile and what the specs mean to us personally. And hence we are all kind of saying the same thing but perspectively viewed Through our own lenses.

If I lived in Goa and had to tow my 3.5 ton boat on a trailer every Sunday for fishing, I would have to Call the Fortuner and Mux half hearted in the towing department because both of them can tow only 3 tons. Only the Endy and the G4 are rated to pull 3.5 tons. That half ton which matters to no one else in the country possibly would be a deal breaker for me.

And if I was someone who is extremely annoyed with 3 point turns in life, the 5.5 m turning radius the G4 claims may make a world of a difference against the 5.85 m that the Endy does.No offence to anyone mates!

And these debates go on ,though not all of us might actually be in the market for one, just because we are all so passionate and enthusiastic about these cars,

[raj_5004]

Let this be the last post on this matter as we are going way off-topic.

Originally Posted by R2D2

Yes, it is a comment on the price. They need to price this product at a level that makes it attractive to people who currently are considering the Fortuner or Endeavour as a SUV purchase.

So M&M gives a product which has way more features and cost around 3~4 Lacs less than the Fortuner and still it is not attractive.

Why? Because it is a Mahindra. That is exactly what I have been saying till now.

I work in a Korean company and our top management drives a Genesis. They can easily afford a BMW or Merc. But they still drive a Genesis because do not feel that just because it is a "Hyundai" product, it should be priced 40% less than the Germans.

I choose to vote with my wallet and will purchase a product that suits my requirements. The purchase is not and will never be out of a sense of loyalty or patriotism for Indian automobile companies. To me "Be Indian buy Indian" is a political slogan and one that I do not follow.

Sure, I agree with that.

But at least do not downgrade a product which is not even launched and except it to be dirt cheap just because it is not a Japanese car.

Read my message again. A product from a a fledgling automobile company going against products from top rung manufacturers where the launch price is near the price of a market leader. To me that makes no sense.

What do you expect M&M to price this car honestly? 15 Lacs? Let us be realistic.

To be clear, I am not saying one should buy the Alturas. Even I will prefer the Endeavour over the Alturas any day and pay the extra money. But I do feel that if the Alturas is reliable, comfortable and M&M car provide good service, the vehicle is indeed very well priced for what it offers.

How many Mahindra or Ssangyong SUVs do you see there compared with vehicles from Toyota, Ford, Nissan and luxury European marques?

Cannot really compare since Mahindra does not offer what the Middle east market needs...

Finally, if you do not agree with me, let's just agree to disagree.

[vipul_singh]

@raj_5004: you seem to be saying that detractors of this vehicle (particularly at this price) are badge / brand conscious, while others are making the point that they are worried about the vehicle's reputation. The Mahindra brand being perceived as a downgrade from, say, Toyota, is based on past experiences / knowledge rather than snobbishness that you seem to be implying (based on the last few pages of posts).

Editing to add: to me, a Genesis is worth *more* than the equivalent German (again, because of reputation)

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

What do you expect M&M to price this car honestly? 15 Lacs? Let us be realistic.

Here is where you lose the plot. Nobody is saying that they "should" have priced it lower. Maybe the current price is an honest one. Or maybe they have under-priced it, or may even be losing money on each unit they sell.

BUT, it does not matter. No matter whether the price is honest or not, there is not much "value" an average customer would see in a 35L Mahindra. I certainly wouldn't mind spending another 5L for a car with a better badge.

Now, these are only guesses, and we might be proved wrong (I hope) when it actually launches.

[SCORPION]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Here is where you lose the plot. Nobody is saying that they "should" have priced it lower.

Really? May be you haven't read a majority of the latest posts in this thread then. That is exactly what everyone is saying. Many of the experts here, who are yet to see the vehicle in person, let alone drive it, have already given their knowledgeable verdict - that the Alturas is dead on arrival at this price point. That Mahindra has no right to sell a product at this price even if it is actually worth the price.
Because Toyota is selling the Fortuner at 40 lakhs, Mahindra has to sell the Alturas at around 20 lakhs is what everyone seems to be saying.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Really? May be you haven't read a majority of the latest posts in this thread then. That is exactly what everyone is saying. Many of the experts here, who are yet to see the vehicle in person, let alone drive it, have already given their knowledgeable verdict - that the Alturas is dead on arrival at this price point. That Mahindra has no right to sell a product at this price even if it is actually worth the price.
Because Toyota is selling the Fortuner at 40 lakhs, Mahindra has to sell the Alturas at around 20 lakhs is what everyone seems to be saying.

It is my opinion too that at 35L onroad, the Alturas is DOA, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Of course, it is not realistic to expect the Alturas to be priced at 20L as it would definitely cost more than that to import. But that it costs more to import does not mean that buyers should automatically see value in buying it at 35L.

The prev gen Rexton was sold with the Ssangyong badge and was a sales disaster. True, it had a quirky sounding name, but at least it had a name that makes people stop and take notice. But to an average buyer a Mahindra/Tata badge means cheap cars. The XUV was able to sell because its price. And we all know what happened to the Aria.

No amount of explaining to the customer, that this is a foreign car at heart, will work in their favour when it has already downgraded itself by putting on the Mahindra badge.

Just for a second ponder whether the Renault Duster would have managed to sell well, if it was named Dacia Duster.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Let this be the last post on this matter as we are going way off-topic.

Hmm, I don't think so because we are still discussing the Alturas.

So M&M gives a product which has way more features and cost around 3~4 Lacs less than the Fortuner and still it is not attractive.

Why? Because it is a Mahindra. That is exactly what I have been saying till now.

Yep, because it is a Mahindra. Thing is, whether we like it or not, there is a pecking order in the world of vehicles as is the case with many other things.

I work in a Korean company and our top management drives a Genesis. They can easily afford a BMW or Merc. But they still drive a Genesis because do not feel that just because it is a "Hyundai" product, it should be priced 40% less than the Germans.

You work in a Korean company. Hmm, now that doesn't surprise me at all. As for the top expat bosses using a luxury model from Hyundai I guess it has more to do with the projected image back home in Korea than money.

But at least do not downgrade a product which is not even launched and except it to be dirt cheap just because it is not a Japanese car.

I am NOT talking down the Alturas! I am sure it has features that are WAY better than the Fortuner. My only disagreement has been on launch price. IMHO a sticker price that's less by only 4-5 L OTR simply isn't enough incentive to swing a fickle customer in their favour. That incentive needs to be larger.

What do you expect M&M to price this car honestly? 15 Lacs? Let us be realistic.

IMHO M&M needs a reality check. A launch price of 26-28 L OTR instead of 35 L would be good. They can always increase it once the market takes to the product. This method adopted by most companies across domains. Stealthy price increases over a period of time once a product is accepted in the market is the way to go.

But I do feel that if the Alturas is reliable, comfortable and M&M car provide good service, the vehicle is indeed very well priced for what it offers.

Sure, but time will tell. There are established players in this segment and the only way to attract customers veering towards the Toyota Fortuner or Ford Endeavour is to appeal to the Indian customer's penchant for VFM.

Finally, if you do not agree with me, let's just agree to disagree.

I agree, we are going around in circles. Cheers!

[asit.kulkarni93]

Saw the Alturas outside an M&M dealership in Pune and I won't be surprised if the sales go bad especially at this price. I have interacted with 3 Rexton owners in Pune. All 3 of them regret saving 3-4 Lakhs and not getting the Fortuner/Pajero. 2 of the cars had major breakdowns near Satara and Jalgaon. All 3 suffered from continuous niggles and when I drove them they felt as if it they are going to fall apart. I have driven Fortuner's and Pajero's which have done well over 2.5L kms and they were built to last. All these 3 Rexton's had done below 100k KMs(Service history verified) and they were in a pathetic condition. Before someone points out the owners weren't careless either. I had driven one of the Rexton owner's Ecosport and it was in a very good condition at 130k KMs.

I find it absurd when people link patriotism with a car purchase. Maybe a handful are foolish to buy the Endeavour or the Fortuner, but not everyone. I personally love the new Endy and would pick it up over the Fortuner But that is because I live in Pune and have access to 3-4 different Ford dealers. One thing which people miss out on is there is a bigger India outside our cities where the dealership experience isn't always pleasant. This discussion can go on and on but the fact is the Japanese UV's(+ the current gen Endy) are robust and built to last. If there is an issue, then you are heard and given the solution. The reliability factor of Tata/M&M is a notch below them any given day and the service experience isn't that great either. My personal experience with Tata has been horrible and the M&M experience with the Logan's in my extended family was pathetic too. Yes, the products from both the brands are getting better but a product is also about maintaining it and that involves dealer interaction which is what spoils the complete experience. If you really want to analyse these vehicles, Please drive an XUV done over 1.25L KMs and you will have the answer.

If one really wants to save some money over the Fortuner/Endy, They are better off getting the MUX. At least you are assured of a well engineered robust SUV.

[Nalin1]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

It is my opinion too that at 35L onroad, the Alturas is DOA, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

No amount of explaining to the customer, that this is a foreign car at heart, will work in their favour when it has already downgraded itself by putting on the Mahindra badge.

Just for a second ponder whether the Renault Duster would have managed to sell well, if it was named Dacia Duster.

You are right! It is that perception in mind that most people have "Mahindra and Tata cars are not quite worth so much". We have not even got into the finer details of the car yet!

It will take a lot of hard work from Mahindra to get rid of that perception. Of course, we want Mahindra to get rid of that perception and the Alturas can be a start. We will wait for our official review for a short term judgement and some owner reviews for a better idea .

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by asit.kulkarni93

Please drive an XUV done over 1.25L KMs and you will have the answer.

Will agree and disagree here. Will agree that the XUV in general does not age as well as the Scorpio or Storme. And a Scorpio/Storme will not age as well as a Fortuner.

[asit.kulkarni93]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Will agree and disagree here. Will agree that the XUV in general does not age as well as the Scorpio or Storme. And a Scorpio/Storme will not age as well as a Fortuner.

Exactly why I mentioned the XUV. The Storme or Scorpio might have niggles but they will pull across much better than the XUV. Not bringing in the Hexa as its relatively new but the Aria was no saint. KK Travels Aria that I have used twice for my travel between Mumbai and Pune had Diwali on the dashboard. It had done around 3L KMs and the driver wasn't particularly happy with the issues he had faced. He clearly stated that the earlier Xylo's and Innova's were a much better bet and he was glad that KK travels had recently picked up a few Xylo's again. A friend and a fellow bhpian's Aria had its timing belt snapped when he was travelling towards Pune from Konkan. This particular car had done less than 75k kms. The DMF related issues in the Aria are well documented on the forum. Although the FL Aria's were a little better but the damage was done.

[SCORPION]

We, as a members of a reputed automotive forum, who take pride in our unbiased view of anything automotive, have failed. Members have declared a product a failure purely based on the badge that it wears. You don't need to be members here to assume that a Mahindra will not sell at 35 lakhs. But that is not what we should be doing, right?

We pride ourselves that our forum is the 'go to' for lakhs of Indians wanting to buy a new car seeing our 'unbiased' reviews and comments on a car. And what have we done here for those people who want to know about the Alturas? Declared it dead on arrival because it's a Mahindra.

We have nothing good to say about the car. Have nothing to say about the engine. Have nothing to say about the gearbox, have nothing nice to say about the features being offered at this price as compared to the rivals. Nobody has comments on her driving Dynamics or ride quality. Why? Simply because we have not been able to lay our hands on one. Nobody knows what the Alturas really is like. We base our comments simply on a few random online reviews and our perception of what a rebadged Ssangyong Mahindra is going to be like. We have completely ignored the fact that this is a completely reengineered car and not just a cosmetically new product. The only real information we have is about the interior quality, which seems to be really nice and the features that are being offered. We have also assumed, and therefore declared that the Alturas is nowhere as good as the Fortuner or the Endeavour off the road.

Now are we being true to what this forum stands for? Are we being truthful to the lakhs of people, who we claim, depend on our forum before plonking their money on their next car? I don't think so. Until a proper test drive and review is done, I think it is not correct of us to declare a product a failure, purely based on the badge and the price. There are more important things that we should be looking at before coming to a conclusion.

People buying a vehicle in this price range and category are probably well informed and probably know that it's a Ssangyong under the badge and that the Mahindra grill is only to fool them. So let's get that out of the way.

Now, before calling me a Mahindra fan boy, let me tell you that I drive an Endeavour 3.2 and I am totally in love with it. All I am saying is that at least WE should give every car a fair chance and a proper review before we declare it a failure or that it is not worth the asking price. There in lies our maturity as an unbiased automotive forum.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Really? May be you haven't read a majority of the latest posts in this thread then. That is exactly what everyone is saying. Many of the experts here, who are yet to see the vehicle in person, let alone drive it, have already given their knowledgeable verdict - that the Alturas is dead on arrival at this price point. That Mahindra has no right to sell a product at this price even if it is actually worth the price.
Because Toyota is selling the Fortuner at 40 lakhs, Mahindra has to sell the Alturas at around 20 lakhs is what everyone seems to be saying.

Mahindra has every right to sell a car at 35 lakhs or 50 lakhs or whatever. Similarly the buying public has every right to not buy a Mahindra (or a SsangYong) at that price given other options in the market. All we are saying is that its priced way too close to the established, much more capable and reliable offerings from well established makers of cars. That's not how to take the game away and Mahindra should know better.