[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by HighwayofLife

I disagree. I initially felt this as well. But the apartment I stay in has a steep exit ramp, which the vehicle takes with ease in 2nd gear, similar to how my Scorpio did. And in using it in all sorts of conditions over the last 2 days, both open roads and bumper to bumper stuff, I'm actually finding it quite fun to drive
It's not a diesel rocket and was never intended to be, but the way the engine and suspension are tuned, driving in any sort of road condition is a pleasure, and Gurugram has some very bad roads indeed

If a scorpio owner finds this engine to be well tuned, I would take his word for it

The one who is shopping in this segment for a 7 seater often do not want to carry the bulk of a large UV around, so something that feels more car-like to drive , yet has adequate 3rd row space should do well. Ertiga sales tell us that there is demand for a vehicle like this.

We will get to know in the next six months how Marazzo will do, I sure hope there are more vehicles like this so that anyone going over the 12L budget can afford a good 7 seater.

[pavi]

Originally Posted by HighwayofLife

I haven't had the chance to try that. But I can tell you that if you have driven another vehicle like the Scorpio, you will find this vehicle's handling a bit different, and that will cause you to have engine stalls in some cases. I think I will try to stop it on the exit ramp and start again, to give you an answer tomorrow

Let me modify the question a bit more. An Alto and an S-Cross 1.6 can start from standstill on a ramp, but Alto may require more clutch burn to achieve the same. So considering the above scenario, how do you compare the Marazzo with the Scorpio?

[HighwayofLife]

Originally Posted by pavi

Let me modify the question a bit more. An Alto and an S-Cross 1.6 can start from standstill on a ramp, but Alto may require more clutch burn to achieve the same. So considering the above scenario, how do you compare the Marazzo with the Scorpio?

I haven't had to use the clutch so far on that slope. And I've previously owned a Scorpio LX 4WD and now a Marazzo. This entire argument that the Marazzo lacks power, is based on a biased assumption that 1.5 ltr mill cannot produce sufficient power. I haven't experienced that so far and so, the only thing that counts is my experience. Yes the car does not have outright torque. But it's not intended to be either an offroader or a drag-racer. So that hardly matters

[lurker]

my question is if people are not complaining ₹ 30 lakh honda CRV diesel with 120 bhp, 320 nm to be underpowered then why are people crying when similar 1.5 ltr 120 bhp engine on marazzo which costs around ₹ 12 lakhs OTR makes same amount of power.

Is this the typical Indian hypocrisy and bias when it comes to desi products as compared to foreign ones.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by lurker

my question is if people are not complaining ₹ 30 lakh honda CRV diesel with 120 bhp, 320 nm to be underpowered then why are people crying when similar 1.6 ltr 120 bhp engine on marazzo which costs around ₹ 12 lakhs OTR makes same amount of power.

Is this the typical Indian hypocrisy and bias when it comes to desi products as compared to foreign ones.

This baffles me as well, even the old Innova had a kerb weight of 1660kg with 2.2L engine which generated only 200Nm of torque and 100bhp horsepower, though being a Toyota it was hailed as the epitome of automotive engineering in it's class in almost every aspect.

Here Marrazo with similar kerb weight of 1650kg but with higher torque and power ratios of 300Nm and 121bhp respectively, generate by a 1.5L is supposed to be under powered? So some members of this elite forum are trying to say that the pulling power of a vehicle is absolutely proportional to the cubic capacity of the engine? Power and torque figures have nothing to do with it? This is beyond my understanding

Mahindra and TATA, no matter how much they improve, they will always be criticized by some just because they are Indian.

[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

This baffels me aswell, even the old innova had a kerb weight of 1660kg with 2.2L engine which generated only 200Nm of torque and 100bhp horsepower, though being a toyota it was hailed as the epitome of automotive engineering in it's class in almost every aspect.

Minor correction here. The old Innova had a 2.5 litre engine

Here marrazo with similar kerb weight of 1650kg but with higher torque and power ratios of 300Nm and 121bhp respectively, generate by a 1.5L is supposed to be under powered? So some members of this elite forum are trying to say that the pulling power of a vehicle is absolutely proportional to the cubic capacity of the engine? Power and torque figures have nothing to do with it? This is beyond my understanding

Mahindra and TATA, no matter how much they improve, they will always be criticized by some just because they are Indian.

Absolute power and torque figures don't make much sense unless specified at what rpm do they make the max power and torque. Although the old Innova made a measly 200 Nm torque, this peak torue was available from as low rpm as 1200 right up to 3400 rpm. It had a small fixed geometry turbo, which would run at full speed from very low rpms. Due to this and the short gearing gave the Innova excellent driveability. Hence running in stop-go traffic or highway with full load never posed any problem for the Innova. But out on highways beyond 110-120 kmph, the Innova would gasp for breath.

Now the lesser weighing Marazzo makes a meaty peak torque of 300Nm from a smaller engine, which means it has to deploy a bigger and variable geometry turbo, which comes to life at a higher rpm. The peak torque of 300 rpm is available in a narrow band of 1750 to 2500 rpm, which means under 1500 rpm the car might struggle due to turbo lag, however if you learn the art of keeping the engine on the boil (read peak torque rpm or turbo zone), you might be rewarded with quick progress. That is why I keep saying that in stop-go traffic in city, with single occupancy, the Marazzo won't struggle and out on the highway, it will outshine any other car in it's segment.

[PYSO]

I test drove the Marazzo twice, and got my brother to test drive it once, and my wife to test drive it once

On all 4 occasions, the engine did stall once.

So, there is definitely a hint of under-poweredness, when you start from idle.

But once the vehicle starts moving, marazzo has adequate power. Once you cross 1800 rpm, all the way up to 3500 rpm, you have a very good amount of power and torque. In this rpm range, power is sufficient to meet at least the minimum expectations of an enthusiast, and likely more. But the vehicle simply doesn't have enough power to satisfy the expansive expectations of an performance enthusiast.

I think what is weighing on the minds of lot of people is that if you want to buy the M6 or M8 versions, that would set you off by 15 - 17.5 lakhs - and when you are paying such money, you don't want to end up with an engine and power train that is less than excellent. And frankly I do agree with that sentiment. Which is why marazzo is kind of weirdly positioned. The M2 and M4 variants are priced in a way that you would be willing to live with an imperfect powertrain, but then are too low on features. The M6 and M8 are well loaded on features, but at that price point, people may not be happy with the engine, powertrain.

[HighwayofLife]

Originally Posted by PYSO

But the vehicle simply doesn't have enough power to satisfy the expansive expectations of an performance enthusiast.

I think what is weighing on the minds of lot of people is that if you want to buy the M6 or M8 versions, that would set you off by 15 - 17.5 lakhs - and when you are paying such money, you don't want to end up with an engine and power train that is less than excellent.

My take- the only comparable vehicles are the Hexa and the Innova Crysta. Both deliver the features of the Marazzo and may be bit more, but are north of Rs 20 lakhs. For a person looking for a good all-round vehicle with minimal compromises, smooth & silent ride, and overall good comfort, with a highway mileage of 16 to 17 kmpl and about 12 kmpl in city, Marazzo is a great buy. For the "Performance Enthusiasts" among us, there are other vehicles- neither the Innova, nor the Hexa, and definitely not the Marazzo, suit their requirements. They have the Fiat Punto Abarth and Volkwagen GTi for that[

[PYSO]

The concern about engine, powertrain being a bit on the underpowered side is one that will weigh on the minds of not only performance enthusiasts, but also ordinary buyers.

I think the solution is obvious. The M4 variant should be beefed up with more features. This would make it reasonably loaded, and yet at a price point where people will be happy to compromise on the engine, powertrain. I am confident that if Mahindra does this, then Marazzo would be selling 6000 plus units a month. It will simply blow ertiga out of the water, and get some percentage of people to switch from sedans, compact SUVs, duster, creta, etc

Originally Posted by lurker

my question is if people are not complaining ₹ 30 lakh honda CRV diesel with 120 bhp, 320 nm to be underpowered then why are people crying when similar 1.6 ltr 120 bhp engine on marazzo which costs around ₹ 12 lakhs OTR makes same amount of power.

Is this the typical Indian hypocrisy and bias when it comes to desi products as compared to foreign ones.

No point comparing with CRV which is probably aiming to sell a 200 units a month. Marazzo is a vehicle which has the potential to sell 6000 plus units a month.

[DImPo]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

We will get to know in the next six months how Marazzo will do, I sure hope there are more vehicles like this so that anyone going over the 12L budget can afford a good 7 seater.

The other 7 seaters in this price range that immediately comes to my mind(other than the upcoming nextgen Ertiga) are the Toyota Rush and Mitsubishi Expander. But both are Petrol only vehicles and in present fuel price scenario the long run operating cost advantage of Diesel is gone. But their launches are not expected to happen in the next one year ( May be around First quarter of 2020 with B-VI engine). No word yet about Renault Duster 7 seater.

[pavi]

Originally Posted by lurker

my question is if people are not complaining ₹ 30 lakh honda CRV diesel with 120 bhp, 320 nm to be underpowered then why are people crying when similar 1.6 ltr 120 bhp engine on marazzo which costs around ₹ 12 lakhs OTR makes same amount of power.

Is this the typical Indian hypocrisy and bias when it comes to desi products as compared to foreign ones.

I hope you have gone through the thread on Honda CRV. I have seen the same sentiment there also where many have rejected the CRV just on the basis of engine. When someone is investing 30 Lakhs on a car, he/she won’t be happy with a small capacity engine even though higher fuel efficiency is claimed by the company.

Regarding your question regarding Indian hypocrisy, our forum itself is surviving on questions and answers. We do have a ‘famous’ thread in this very forum on the Honda City niggles, thread on Verna engine issues (in the making I believe), thread on low quality spiral cables being used by Toyota, thread where JTP twins are getting lot of applause etc. Hence I hope our forum is neutral to Brands. Questions are to be naturally expected (whether you like it or not) if you are not doing a ‘mann ki baat’.

[Kosfactor]

I think it is difficult for a smaller engine to perform as effortless as a bigger one, however it is not impossible either thanks to clever turbocharged engines.

Among the smaller engines I find TUV engine to be effortless albeit with one less cylinder. So Mahindra sure knows how to fix their engine and drive train. TUV then is a ladder frame , rumble tumble type, although it's NVH characteristics are excellent , it is not what a CRV owner will expect and certainly not a deal breaker for someone paying 10-11 L.

Marazzo is a lot more refined, planting a 150 BHP mhawk and making it another XUV at the cost of fuel efficiency isn't going to do any favour.( Remember Ertiga SHVS and a bit more money is the target)

CRV owners , I hope they test drive it with a full load to see how relaxed that engine is going to be, if it is anything like the City diesel, good luck Honda.

[troublemaker]

A simple solution to all the 'underpowered' hooplah is to plonk a 6 speed tranny and let it handle the tourque curve and what not.

That will also give them lot more private buyers.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by troublemaker

A simple solution to all the 'underpowered' hooplah is to plonk a 6 speed tranny and let it handle the tourque curve and what not.

That will also give them lot more private buyers.

It comes with a 6 speed manual. Just like the CRV.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by HighwayofLife

This entire argument that the Marazzo lacks power, is based on a biased assumption that 1.5 ltr mill cannot produce sufficient power.

. The Marazzo has a power-to-weight ratio of 76 BHP / ton, which is better than the Tata Hexa & Maruti Ertiga! It falls short of the Innova 2.4L's figure by 6 BHP / ton. The Marazzo's torque-to-weight ratio of 188 Nm / ton is almost on par with the Innova's and again better than the Hexa & Ertiga. That said, it doesn't have that bottom-end grunt of the larger Toyota & Tata engines, which can come in handy with a full load of passengers.

Originally Posted by PYSO

On all 4 occasions, the engine did stall once.

So, there is definitely a hint of under-poweredness, when you start from idle.

There is no connection between stalling & being under-powered. Like the Skoda Yeti (which also had a huge stalling problem), I think its to do with the dual mass flywheel.

Me, Aditya, Blackwasp & ChiragM all stalled the Marazzo on multiple occasions. Embarrassingly .