[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by mrvenka

Did not understand your logic man! You are comparing peak torques of different engines against their RPM

You are right about us having to compare the graphs. But, what I meant is that other's make peak Torque at much lower rpms that the Varicor 400.

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

You are right about us having to compare the graphs. But, what I meant is that other's make peak Torque at much lower rpms that the Varicor 400.

Yes the correct way would be to compare the full torque vs rpm graphs and then also the torque to weight ratios. Comparison of peak torque figures alone will not give the correct picture. Also real world performance also depends on the gear ratios too and the actual driving perforamance would only be assessable with a complete dyno test.

[WorkingGuru]

Originally Posted by mrvenka

Did not understand your logic man!...

I guess whats most relevant is to figure out how much torque is made throughout a larger rev-band / revving range.

In that sense, I don't think the figures simply indicate the rev-range in which the Turbocharger is spooling. I think the figures given are indicative of the peak torque achievable through atleast a large section of that rev-range. If graphically represented, its quite probably a decently progressive & smooth torque curve in all the 4 engines.

Would it not be preferable to have a car whose peak torque is achieved through a wide range such that it would start from early and hold on till a while ? Especially for an MUV.

The Innova Crysta 2.8D's peak torque of 360NM is progressively achieved starting from 1200 upto 3400 rpm. Producing such torque through 2400 revs is a W-I-D-E range. Starting at 1200RPM gives it a clear advantage for using the car with ease in city traffic, then keeping up that torque till 3400RPM makes it very suitable for pacing this luxury van through the highways.

The Crysta 2.4D's peak torque of 343NM is progressively achieved starting from 1400 upto 2800 rpm. Producing such torque through 1400 revs is a medium range. Starting at 1400RPM gives it a clear advantage for using the car with ease in city traffic, then keeping up that torque till 2800RPM makes it easily suitable for highways. The 5-Speed Manual Gearbox is a downer although they say they've made the 5th gear taller.

Even the XUV5OO 2.2mHawk's peak torque of 330NM is achieved starting from 1600 upto 2800 rpm. Producing such torque through 1200 revs is a medium range. Since its starting at 1600RPM, one may have to often downshift to a lower gear to drive through the city traffic, again keeping up that torque till 2800RPM makes it very suitable for highways, the 6-Speed manual helps keep mileage figures from dropping.

Now the Hexa's 2.2VariCOR's peak torque of 400NM is progressively achieved starting only from ~1800RPM and upto just 2500RPM. Producing such torque through just 700RPM is a very narrow range. Since its starting at 1800RPM, one may often have to downshift to lower gears to navigate the city traffic (no wonder you hear reviewers complaining about the lag), again achieving that torque till just 2500RPM before you upshift makes it a busy manual to drive (due to constant work with gearshifts). And since you've barely any juice after you're in 6th at 2500RPM, with little reserve power, it could mean you'll have to plan your overtaking more than you'd have to in the XUV5OO or Innova 2.4D and MUCH more than you'd have to plan in the Innova Crysta 2.8D.

This actually only shows us that theres NO replacement for displacement.

The Hexa's USP lies in a completely different space. If outright power is what you're looking for, you've come to the wrong thread. Its more important to know what we're going for (such that it serves our expectations best, rather than us feeling disappointed later). Just Saying.

I feel a sense of occasion in changing gears while travelling, I don't find gearshifts a hassle, especially on highway cruising speeds. BUT, those people who feel its a hassle while driving, may choose the AT for quick gear-shifts. Simple.

My 2c.

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

Now the Hexa's 2.2VariCOR's peak torque of 400NM is progressively achieved starting only from ~1800RPM and upto just 2500RPM. Producing such torque through just 700RPM is a very narrow range.

Since its starting at 1800RPM,

And since you've barely any juice after you're in 6th at 2500RPM, with little reserve power

Hexa can't possibly have zero torque before 1800 RPM and after 2500 RPM. Even if the torque tapers rapidly, which it shouldn't if variable geometry turbo performs well, Hexa may still have better torque figures across the rev range compared to competitors. Of course a lot of that advantage will be washed away due to higher weight.

Quoting the results on XUV5OO below, it has less than 230 NM till 2000 RPM and more than 300 NM only between 2500-3000 RPM. Either there is something wrong with the results (highly improbable) or Mahindra has taken liberty to generate figures out of thin air.

Originally Posted by Racedynamics

Mahindra XUV500

Measured power : 132.47 whp
Manufacturer claimed power: 140 bhp

Measured torque: 308.01 Nm
Manufacturer claimed torque: 330 Nm

Attachment 1412412

Innova in comparison performs much better and has an assuring flat torque spread. However, it barely seems to have any juice below 2100 RPM.

Originally Posted by Racedynamics

Toyota Innova

Measured power : 73.68 whp
Manufacturer claimed power: 101 bhp

Measured torque: 152.68 Nm
Manufacturer claimed torque: 200 Nm

Attachment 1412428

[aamateen46]

And don't forget, all this torque spread in the Hexa without compromising on fuel efficiency, is laudable for such a heavyweight.
As someone pointed out in earlier posts, the Hexa seems to be a Jack-of-all-trades (with solid MUV and SUV capabilities) and a very good one at that.

[PNTLovesNano]

I had gone to Concorde Motors for general service of my Nano. Casually spoke with the sales person and he said that the tentative date for Hexa is 5th January and that bookings will start from 15 November. Kite will be the next in line and he had no idea about Nexon. And neither is Tiago AMT anywhere in sight. This is way too slow and too little response from Tata.

On a side note, my Nano bill has been Rs. 240/-. This is the 2nd yearly service and as second car it has done only 6K in 2 years.

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

And since you've barely any juice after you're in 6th at 2500RPM, with little reserve power,

I agree with the fact that the Innova's engine (especially 2.8) will have a lot more usable power due to the superwide spread of torque (for a diesel).
I, however, disagree with the statement that Hexa runs out of juice at 2500 RPM. Its peak torque may end at 2500 RPM, but its peak power ends at 4000 RPM. Hexa makes ~140 HP @ 2500 RPM while it makes 156 HP @ 4000 RPM (~277 Nm). It is ultimately the power that decides how quickly the car moves (in same gear). While it may not feel that good to push the engine to 4000 RPM due to sharply falling torque and very little increase in power, the engine should not run out of juice for overtakes post 2500 RPM as it has more power at 4000 than at 2500.

To add an example to this, Swift Diesel produces 190 Nm @ 2000 RPM and the torque starts falling after that, but the Swift becomes more and more punchy after that. It is more punchy at say 3000 RPM than at 2000 RPM due to higher power in spite of having lower torque.

[condor]

Originally Posted by Black_Beast

When I was evaluating Crysta they told converting middle seat to 3seater bench model will void Warranty. Showroom can't do this. (Price gap on 7/8 are not huge )
I hope Hexa does that as an Optional package with Warranty coverage.

A seat is a static part of the vehicle. I would say - go ahead. Sales guys across brands have a habit of saying warranty will be void

[mrvenka]

That’s a lot of data but does not help me . I still feel comparison will only be fare if you fix at least one parameter, in your own example Crysta 2.8D cranks 360NM from 1200 to 3400 rpm. I can only comment about engine X (any comparator) if I know its torque between 1200 rpm to 3400 rpm. I feel it will be wrong to say Engine X is bad as its peak performance is 400NM only between 1800 rpm and 2400 rpm (400NM is higher so certainly it has crossed 360NM at some stage), who knows it might achieve 360NM at 1000 rpm itself or may be 1700 rpm too. Any way no point in continuing the debate without the data. Have a good one.

Also, I am not looking for Hexa I read Team-Bhp daily and its my stress buster just felt like commenting this time.

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

I guess whats most relevant is to figure out how much torque is made throughout a larger rev-band / revving range.

In that sense, I don't think the figures simply indicate the rev-range in which the Turbocharger is spooling. I think the figures given are indicative of the peak torque achievable through atleast a large section of that rev-range. If graphically represented, its quite probably a decently progressive & smooth torque curve in all the 4 engines.

Would it not be preferable to have a car whose peak torque is achieved through a wide range such that it would start from early and hold on till a while ? Especially for an MUV.

The Innova Crysta 2.8D's peak torque of 360NM is progressively achieved starting from 1200 upto 3400 rpm. Producing such torque through 2400 revs is a W-I-D-E range. Starting at 1200RPM gives it a clear advantage for using the car with ease in city traffic, then keeping up that torque till 3400RPM makes it very suitable for pacing this luxury van through the highways.

My 2c.

[WorkingGuru]

Originally Posted by ksameer1234

Hexa can't possibly have zero torque before 1800 RPM and after 2500 RPM....

Didn't even remotely mean to say that. I meant only for the section where the peak torque & power is achievable.

I think you maybe missed the 2nd Para (?). Here :

I think the figures given are indicative of the peak torque achievable through atleast a large section of that rev-range. If graphically represented, its quite probably a decently progressive & smooth torque curve ...

Originally Posted by theredliner

..
I, however, disagree with the statement that Hexa runs out of juice at 2500 RPM. Its peak torque may end at 2500 RPM, but its peak power ends at 4000 RPM. Hexa makes ~140 HP @ 2500 RPM while it makes 156 HP @ 4000 RPM (~277 Nm). It is ultimately the power that decides how quickly the car moves (in same gear)...

I'm in agreement with you. Please consider my 2nd para sir. Ofcourse its progression not be at a similar pace post 2500RPM.

without data...Also, I am not looking for Hexa I read Team-Bhp daily and its my stress buster just felt like commenting this time.

Well atleast now we know which data would be useful to compare.

I guess the Team BHP Official review may help clarify our doubts about the comparative power for Hexa V/s the competition.

Originally Posted by Black_Beast

When I was evaluating Crysta they told converting middle seat to 3seater bench model will void Warranty. Showroom can't do this....

Check with a trained service advisor at their ASC.

Originally Posted by condor

A seat is a static part of the vehicle. I would say - go ahead. Sales guys across brands have a habit of saying warranty will be void

The bolstering might be different for their floors. The floor design might not accommodate the 7 Seater seats.

Also please consider that technically the car is homologated for a specific seating capacity. One may not be able to alter the details in the RC book / Card.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by condor

A seat is a static part of the vehicle. I would say - go ahead. Sales guys across brands have a habit of saying warranty will be void

Seats (in some variants) may have airbags or some components related to the airbag (like a sensor which detects if the seat is occupied or not)

[aayushnair]

Originally Posted by Guna

Seats (in some variants) may have airbags or some components related to the airbag (like a sensor which detects if the seat is occupied or not)

In the Hexa XT manual there is a 7 seater optional, so I don't understand why it can't be provided in the auto and 4x4 versions as well. This could be a major let down forcing buyers to look at other options.


For me only the XTA makes sense (another + will be in an auto 4x4, which autocarindia said recently tata would look at after a sales analysis)



The next in my mind was the endeavour, haven't really seen one yet but my boss drives one - will be a total Career Limiting Move (CLM) lol.


Cheers!

[deevee]

Do the bookings open tomorrow? When can we expect the prices?
Things are too slow with Tata
Wondering when will test drives begin.

[Sutripta]

Re: the discussion on torque of various engine - does turbo lag figure anywhere?

Regards
Sutripta

[tifosikrishna]

A relative of mine who has Storme for close to 3.5 years said he is in love with the car, not only him, his entire family. On inquiring about his service experience he mentioned that he used to give his car for service either in Mumbai or Pune and both the places it has never stayed overnight (goes to show there has not been any major issue till date).

When I checked about the tyres, came to know that he is still running with original Bridgestone & mentioned that it is in very good condition. Surprising thing was he had recently completed 70,000km with it. I insisted him to change the tyres but he was quite confident that they are good.

I can only infer that in spite of heavy weight, tyre wear can be controlled, which has been a major topic of discussion here.

Footnote: It seems that I had recommended him to go for Storme (which I don't remember) and so he & his family thanked me for that.

So, keep calm & book Hexa.