[anurag.somani]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

Is there really another choice??

A family looking for a safe sedan with good back seat comfort and other conveniences has no other option as of now. No other car offers this kind of features with this kind of money.

Well, this is exactly the sentiment which Honda is exploiting with the premium pricing .
Myth-busters, from our distinguished BHPians -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ata-vista.html

CrAzY dRiVeR :
1. SV Variant (2 airbags) of the City tested in the 1.5L petrol trim has a kerb weight of 1102 kgs, whereas the version sold in India weighs 1065 kgs for the SV CVT variant, 1085 for the VX CVT variant which comes with a sunroof also (which they dont get but still their car is heavier!)

2. SV variant comes with Seat belt retractor, tensioner and load limiter for BOTH driver and passenger seats, VSA (Vehicle stability Assist), 8 airbags as optional, HSA (Hill Start Assist), ESS (Emergency Stop Signal). They even get 185 section tyres for the SV variant compared to our 175.

I doubt we get the same emphasis of safety in the Indian version of the City - Our car was bred for the 26 kmpl mileage figure!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...e-anymore.html
CrAzY dRiVeR :

Design flaws and ergonomics

•Bluetooth is SV variant is useless due to mic positioning. No solution provided by Honda.
•Piano black finish and glass on console prone to scratches and peeling off! And it is provided for most used parts.
•Atleast seven members complained of back pain due to poor lumbar support plus choice of seat material.

We could go on, but you get the drift!
Honda's reputation as a premium manufacturer is hard-earned, but it's losing it fast with the current crop of products in India.
It's time the customer becomes more discerning in his choice other than just the "H" badge.

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Small disclaimer. None of the Honda cars from the Indian market has been crash tested yet. So we can only assume about the safety aspect.

But it did score a 5 star rating in NCAP tests. Source : https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.car...?client=safari

[MCR]

After driving the City iDtec for 33k kilometers, with Yokohama 195/60 R15 tyres I can confidently say that it is a very average car. I enjoyed my Punto better which had terrific ride quality and amazing handling. Did not have a single niggle when I sold it at 1.10 lakh kilometers. I completely agree that Honda City is a below average product with a lot of niggles. The most irritating one being the dashboard noise. Also the boot in my City would make screeching noise every time I crossed a road hump. The paint quality is hopeless and my car saw a lot of swirl marks and no amount of detailing helped.
A bad car by a company which prefers to call itself premium and whose recent launches have all been below average performers in the market!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

But it did score a 5 star rating in NCAP tests. Source : https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.car...?client=safari

True.

But that is the model made for Latin American markets.

It could be the same for Indian market as proven by Volkswagen and Toyota, but may not be the same as well, as proven by Hyundai and Suzuki. Depends on the manufacturer ethics as Indian rules don't require them to be as good as their international variants.

So unless Indian variant is tested, we can only assume.

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

True.

But that is the model made for Latin American markets.

It could be the same for Indian market as proven by Volkswagen and Toyota, but may not be the same as well, as proven by Hyundai and Suzuki. Depends on the manufacturer ethics as Indian rules don't require them to be as good as their international variants.

So unless Indian variant is tested, we can only assume.

I don't think the frame or structure will change no matter which nation the car launches in. Plus 6 airbags added now makes it a safe car to be in.

[Chillout]

I completely agree with Vid views, we have reached a situation where people are ready to pay any amount of money for they aren't many alternatives that give you value for money offering. Take the Figo twins, Ford was known for their build and ride quality, to survive they had to compromise on those and it did affect their sales for known/unknown reasons.

I just cannot fathom paying over 15 Lacs for a Creta/S-Cross/City/Verna.

S-Cross learnt it the hard way where they had to reduce the price as people rejected it. Trust me even Honda would start reducing the prize if people start rejecting it, unfortunately it wouldn't happen, gullible and brand passionate folks will continue to lap it any price point. But I do appreciate Honda for the cosmetic changes that they introduced in the new version without which customers would have looked at other alternatives

[Rajeevraj]

It is sad to see how manufacturers are slowing pushing up the price ranges for different segments. 17L OTR for a Honda City ZX CVT and 15L+ for a Vento TSI Highline Plus DSG. It just keeps going up. Looks like I am definitely going back to the pre-owned route for the next upgrade.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

But it did score a 5 star rating in NCAP tests. Source : https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.car...?client=safari

This was for the City sold in Brazil and also made in Brazil. As we have discussed here in the past, NCAP ratings of cars made/sold in another countries cannot be used as a benchmark for the car sold here (Even true for cars made here and exported). Manufacturers are known to treat India differently (Not just Honda) since we don't really have any NCAP kind of safety regulations.

It may score a 5 star rating. But we can never be sure unless an India made car made for the Indian market is tested.

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Firstly I already own the car and have driven 5k kms and love it. I own the iVtec and have had no issues at all. In the initial days I thought there was rattle in dashboard but turns out it was a sound made by the ganesha idol.

I think servicing in Bangalore is pretty satisfactory and charges are sensible.

IMO, in recent batches of City, quality has been improved and I don't find anything unsatisfactory. I'm sure they would've upped the quality more in this launch. Gotta wait for long term ownerships to see if it's true.

Don't bring down a product before experiencing it.

Originally Posted by deerhunter

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that the City top variants are overpriced. But customers dont have much choice, as of now.

If I want a safe sedan with good back seat comfort, I will have to go with City ZX. Ciaz diesel maybe much cheaper, but I am not sure i will overlook safety if i have the money. A 6 airbag variant of the Ciaz may turn the equations, but as of now, it is the City.

Coming to Creta, it was equally criticised for being overpriced. An overpriced Hyundai is not a better option than an overpriced Honda. The 6 airbag variant of the Creta is much more expensive than the City, and the overall comfort levels are better in the City. Creta doesnt have several features present in cheaper Hyundais and the current City.

Brutailer - I sincerely hope you don't feel any of those rattlings in the long run. FYI - I own a 2014 model VX CVT. I did not have any dashboard rattling issues till 30,000 kms. But then I had it. It is fixed but I am not sure if it would return back. Again, I am not sure if the 2016 models had it fixed. If yes, great.

deerhunter - The build quality of Creta (see many reviews) is better than City. Ok, it's not the best in terms of engine, gearbox compared to City. But, then you have the advantage of a higher ground clearance, better ride quality. You see the sales figures. It's way above City and consistently selling 7000+ or 8000+ units per month despite this price.

[vijayvelprakash]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

Is there really another choice??

A family looking for a safe sedan with good back seat comfort and other conveniences has no other option as of now. No other car offers this kind of features with this kind of money.

We may not have many choice in the same segment as a C segment sedan. But one always has the option of going to one segment lower as pointed by Jaggu (to B2 hatch in this case) which will offer safety, good back seat comfort and other conveniences.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Good point would be interesting to see the ratings for base and the fully loaded top end. I for one have learned that a top end (read as with full safety spec) is the way to go for any purchase, even if i am forced to go one segment lower for that.

[PetroTurbo]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Few years back Mercedes launched B Class making 100 BHP, nobody cribbed as it was a Mercedes. Honda increases price by lakh or two, everyone loses their minds.

I have mentioned it earlier in another post and mentioning it again now. Mercedes does a research on Sound Engineering for the THUD sound we get when the DOORS close. Similarly VW also does this for all its products. That is the reason why everyone loves the THUD sound of German cars. That is premium

I own a Skoda Superb Diesel 150BHP, but once the doors are closed and I drive, I don't hear the engine inside the cabin and at times it gives the impression as it is a Petrol motor. That is a premium

The Interior in the German cars are faaaaaaaaar better than the Japanese adn the Koreans, especially when comparing the city in the past decade, where everything has gone down. Where as for the German cars, the quality is improving ever, I have witnessed the quality improve from the Superb II to Superb III. This is premium

So, the comparison made does not make sense. And I did not mean to offend you, but just saying that the comparison made here is not in reality

[deerhunter]

Originally Posted by anurag.somani

Well, this is exactly the sentiment which Honda is exploiting with the premium pricing .
Myth-busters, from our distinguished BHPians -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ata-vista.html

CrAzY dRiVeR :
1. SV Variant (2 airbags) of the City tested in the 1.5L petrol trim has a kerb weight of 1102 kgs, whereas the version sold in India weighs 1065 kgs for the SV CVT variant, 1085 for the VX CVT variant which comes with a sunroof also (which they dont get but still their car is heavier!)

2. SV variant comes with Seat belt retractor, tensioner and load limiter for BOTH driver and passenger seats, VSA (Vehicle stability Assist), 8 airbags as optional, HSA (Hill Start Assist), ESS (Emergency Stop Signal). They even get 185 section tyres for the SV variant compared to our 175.

I doubt we get the same emphasis of safety in the Indian version of the City - Our car was bred for the 26 kmpl mileage figure!

Judging a car's structural safety by looking at the weight difference is not fair. It is just an assumption. Honda Mobilio has different weights in India and Indonesia, but both has stable structures. Since Mobilio's structure (based on the 'tin can' Brio platform) passed NCAP, i can similarly assume that City too will pass.

Originally Posted by anurag.somani

Design flaws and ergonomics

•Bluetooth is SV variant is useless due to mic positioning. No solution provided by Honda.
•Piano black finish and glass on console prone to scratches and peeling off! And it is provided for most used parts.
•Atleast seven members complained of back pain due to poor lumbar support plus choice of seat material.

I have never had any issues with lumbar support, infact I think it is better than any other car in the segment. But since lumbar support also depends on a person's build, I agree that some may find it poor. But it is not unique to City. All the cars in the segment without adjustable lumbar support have that issue. T-bhp review mentions the poor lumbar support for even the Creta.

I know that the City has several niggles. But who else is better in that regard? The cars with good comfort and user friendly features have some niggles, cars that are good in perceived quality have major reliability issues, cars that are FTD have poor ASS, cars with few niggles have poor handling and comfort. Ultimately customers have only Ciaz and City that are well rounded packages. No wonder they both sell well.

Originally Posted by anurag.somani

Honda's reputation as a premium manufacturer is hard-earned, but it's losing it fast with the current crop of products in India.
It's time the customer becomes more discerning in his choice other than just the "H" badge.

True. But it is not unique to Honda. All the manufacturers overprice their products. Except for the Ciaz, nothing that decently sells is rightly priced.

Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash

We may not have many choice in the same segment as a C segment sedan. But one always has the option of going to one segment lower as pointed by Jaggu (to B2 hatch in this case) which will offer safety, good back seat comfort and other conveniences.

No B2 hatch is as comfortable as a City. Because of the 4m rule, rear space will never be as much as the City. Then comes the safety, which I think only Figo (6 airbags) is comparable to City, but it is nowhere close to even an i20 in the comfort department.

Originally Posted by adarsh76

deerhunter - The build quality of Creta (see many reviews) is better than City. Ok, it's not the best in terms of engine, gearbox compared to City. But, then you have the advantage of a higher ground clearance, better ride quality. You see the sales figures. It's way above City and consistently selling 7000+ or 8000+ units per month despite this price.

All Hyundais have better perceived quality than Hondas. The safest Creta variant is more than a lakh costlier than the City. Ride quality at highway speeds is just on par with the City, not any better. T-bhp mentions bounciness at highway speeds. So sheet metal thickness and soft touch plastics doesnt matter if the overall comfort is lower. It sells 8k units a month because it is a pseudo SUV.



Ultimately, City will sell in good numbers whatever the price is. We bhpians may not find anything premium in the City, but the general populace will. The main reason for such a major success for Ciaz is its low price. If the Ciaz and City are equally priced with equal features, City will score double the sales of Ciaz. The non petrol-heads will still throw their money for the City, and we all cannot do anything about it.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The point is the City has no right being sold at 17 lakhs. Underneath it is a 8-9L car decked up with LED, sunroof and now finally 6 airbags.

So, who decides the right? you,me, TBHP?
The manufacturer has every right to offer the product at whatever price they wish.The verdict is given by the market, the consumer. If people find it overpriced, they will give it a miss and the product will be a dud and it will die it's death in due course.



City at 17 Lakhs is overpriced. Ok, but then what about the Creta?
What about the Innova? Or, so many other cars? Not even mentioning about the premium cars here.

The consumer certainly feels that the Creta and Innova are cars worth their money and making a beeline for those cars.

I am actually happy that Honda is paying attention to the City and loading it up with segment-topping features unlike other cars introduced in Indian market by Honda which appear as half-hearted attempts. My prediction - the City facelift will be a runaway success. I expect best ever sales numbers for the City.

PS - I read in some of the earlier posts that City is light/less kerb weight and not well-built. Yes, possibly. But, please do check the kerb weight of the biggest "rival" of the City - the Ciaz, from out market leader Maruti Suzuki.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash

We may not have many choice in the same segment as a C segment sedan. But one always has the option of going to one segment lower as pointed by Jaggu (to B2 hatch in this case) which will offer safety, good back seat comfort and other conveniences.

Car purchase is a complex decision making process. If you already own a hatch and try telling your wife that you want to upgrade to another hatch, even a top end one with all bells and whistles. It will be very difficult to convince her. For long I wanted to upgrade my Polo 1.2 P to Polo 1.2 TSI. I am not able to put up a convincing case. Space in back is extremely limited. Also boot has a big draw in snob value.
The other half of population is sparingly represented in TBHP. Honda city is one car which is extremely popular with ladies. It is the first choice of my wife. So as a compromise, people will move towards a family oriented car. Despite all the criticism here City continue to be the top reviewed car in the ownership section is due to this.

[adarsh76]

All City owners,

We should criticize the car more. Criticism from Non City owners need not be taken care. Comments like CVT compared to scooter, tin cans and all is childish. Those can be ignored.

But, the reality of the build quality issues needs to be voiced out from our side. Yes, the safety rating despite not done in India is also correct. Honda City would earn at least 4 stars for sure if tested in India. No car can survive in high speed accidents. The crash test done by NCAP is at 64 km/h for all cars.

The more we voice out, probably Honda or at least some dealers would see them. Almost all dealers are aware of Team-BHP and in fact they're looking into this site as well (at least some I know).

Seriously, the pricing of 2017 honda top end models is very much wrong. People buying these cars and then finding the niggles would tarnish the Honda image further.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

"Feel" and actual structure strength are very different. Quoting about the ACE structure in City :

ACE structure is a pure marketing term. lol. Pls. don't get carried away with marketing spiel. YEs the City is decent in safety but it's again the lowest when vs the Vento/Rapid and possibly even the Verna (don't remember NCAP rating).

There are enough posts and photos showing what happens to a city in small impacts. It's like a baleno which again on paper has decent safety but we know better that the car is wafer thin. Just comparing live examples of Vento and City in accidents on the forum and you know which car you should be in if you have an unfortunate accident.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

I don't think the frame or structure will change no matter which nation the car launches in. Plus 6 airbags added now makes it a safe car to be in.

The frame and structure very much changes for cheap Indian countries where we don't have the same norms. Ford, Hyundai and other manufacturers add additional strength to the shell for european markets vs India. There's a thread on this. Honda for sure has different quality of parts in Thailand and India. Have seen a City in Singapore and it's not even the same car!!!

Originally Posted by adimicra

So, who decides the right? you,me, TBHP?
The manufacturer has every right to offer the product at whatever price they wish.The verdict is given by the market, the consumer. If people find it overpriced, they will give it a miss and the product will be a dud and it will die it's death in due course.

Let the buyer decide. lol. I just like other members am shocked at 17 lakhs for a City. I was equally shocked at 18L for a Creta and yet to recover from 27L for an Innov and 40L for Fortuner. These are cars I will never put my money on as it will only encourage manufacturers to price the cars as such.

By accepting a city at 17L, A Creta at 18L, Innova at 27L we are only giving into these manufacturers and becoming targets for them to fool us into thinking we are buying premium cars with features.

The S-cross was priced ridiculously and we made a hue and cry. Sales were pretty bad and went down. Even after price correction they never recovered.

Now the S-cross especially the 1.6L is seeming like a brilliant package.