[N4Nikunj]

Honda City 2017 ZX is 16.8L on-road Ahmadabad. So as per my observation i will happily buy Ciaz instead, Which is costing around 11.3L on road. Now if we consider rumors of Ciaz face lift and in future and if Ciaz gets 1.6L unit still its cost will nowhere close to City ZX.

[Jaggu]

More i see the new prices of variants across various car makes, the more i believe we as customers are royally taken for a ride! Honda city and 17 Lakhs?! For a cheap tin can why would anyone pay so much? Yes they are more reliable than some euro makes but service these days are nothing to talk about. Even maintenance after 40k kms is not what i would term cheap.

Right from a Duster to a S cross seems more VFM now, even that horrid Creta seems better off!

This trend is due to the customers, who blindly buy anything Japanese and don't voice real picture down the course of ownership. Mind you we have had honda's since 2002 IIRC and still have the Crv, and atleast in Banagalore i feel maintaining them is more pain compared to Ford, Toyota and MUL.

City for a Civic price! Brilliant lol

[N4Nikunj]

Now We will have to just imagine that what will be the price of new civic, 24 lakhs?

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by vsrivatsa

Good to see Honda bringing in the attention to insulate the noise on the Diesel. Need to see if they have upped the game---

What do you expect from this unrefined engine? Here are the first reviews and comments.

Ambient sounds have gone down a bit, but the diesel engine rattle is still an issue

Honda claims to have added more insulation for lowering the NVH levels in the diesel, and though it is a marked improvement, there's only so much that could be done to curb what is inherently a noisy engine

Going premium in future- this is the start!

In fact, the City’s diesel top end ZX variant is roughly around Rs 1.2 lakh more expensive than an equivalent Verna, around Rs 75,000 more than the Vento’s new Highline Plus variant (also with LED headlamps) and a whopping Rs 4 lakh more than the Ciaz’s top variant! So Honda’s premium pricing is certainly back, but is it worth it this time around? While some of the new additions are new to the segment, most are now par for the course. So while it is a more appealing package overall, Honda will have to once again rely on the City’s brand clout and core strengths to pull this one off

Link

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Yoichiro Ueno, MD & CEO, Honda has released a press statement today that should probably explain the higher pricing of the City, and the widening of the price gap with respect to the Ciaz and S-Cross -

"The brand positioning is thus being scaled up. We now have a strategy to maintain our traditional positioning, which is a bit more premium though not luxury. So, we would like to target customers a bit different from Maruti or Hyundai. We would like to do that in terms of products, service, and customer experience.

That seems a little bit haughty doesn't it? Though I'm kind of okay with the pricing. At 17 lakhs on road, it's still considerably cheaper than D segment sedans while offering almost everything they offer (and more!).

For people who like being chauffeured, City is a very good proposition. Amazing space and comfort plus top class safety (6 airbags, ACE structure). CVT actually makes sense as it's much more smoother (no actual gears) than AMTs and DCTs.

And if you like to drive, iVtec is one epic motor. IIRC, Jetta 1.4 makes 121 bhp which is very similar to iVtec.

Its competitors make very less power than City (Vento makes 105 bhp, Ciaz makes even lesser!)

So it's okay if they put a premium price because it actually deserves that price if you see the package as whole. Heck, which C segment sedan offers Sun-Roof? And full LED lamps? Soft touch dash?

Hence, if you see, it's still considerably cheaper than D segment while offering much more than the current crop of C segment cars. Thus the price.

For example Octavia costs 16-23.5 lakhs ex-showroom! Is that even comparable to City? Jetta on the other hand making 121 bhp costs 15-21 lakhs. Again very expensive compared to City.
If I see now, City actually looks like a bargain to me when it's offering so much at that price.

I think few days back I was discussing on another forum as how if a company offers a premium product, we Indians are ready to pay a premium price. Honda is doing that now. And 5k+ bookings prove my point.

The only overpriced variant is the iDtec if you consider in terms of BHP. But it offers best in class fuel economy and has an amazing drivability. Only top end suffers unlike the iVtec.

And those cars like Eco Sport and Brezza are cheap because they are sub 4m. Hence the tax benefits. Which is why Ford can offer 6 airbags at that price.

I think we should end the pricing discussion and actually concentrate on the car. V and VX variant is VFM anyway. If you want more premiumness, ZX is the way to go.

[PrasannaDhana]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

.

. The Ciaz is now in a segment of it's own between the compact sedans and the City, Vento, Rapid which are trying move into a segment they absolutely do not belong.

+1



Now Maruti will price the ciaz facelift exorbitantly too, and will justify that as "segment standard".

Personally, I feel C2 segment sedans are overrated. I find figo/elite i20/baleno/jazz more sensible for an average joe(95% of our market). I own a ciaz, i have been on a dozen long trips, but i havent even been able to use the boot fully, even once.

And as a regular user of both the sedans, i feel city idtec is way overpriced for what it offers. There are times we regretted the purchase of the idtec because of its terrible NVH.

If Maruti can plonk 1.6 DDIS into the ciaz, remove bits of cheap plastics in the cabin and price it sensibly, I would pick ciaz over any other C2 segment sedan(if i had to choose from sedans).

[RavenAvi]

S MT petrol = 8,35,000 (2012)
V MT petrol = 8,79,000 (2012)

S MT petrol = 8,70,100 (2014) (outgoing)
V MT petrol = 9,24,100 (2014) (outgoing)

S MT petrol = 8,04,000 (2014) (new-gen)
V MT petrol = 8,99,000 (2014) (new-gen)
SV MT petrol = 8,49,000 (2014) (new-gen, new variant)

S MT petrol = 8,49,990 (2017)
V MT petrol = 9,99,990 (2017)
SV MT petrol = 9,53,990 (2017)

Considering the 5-year difference and the addition of features, the S MT is a steal, at nearly the same price!


Now, let's see the CVTs.

V CVT = 9,58,700 (2012)
V CVT Exclusive = 10,11,596 (2012)

V CVT = 9,90,013 (2014) (outgoing)
V CVT Exclusive = 10,75,526 (2014) (outgoing)

SV CVT = 9,49,000 (2014) (new gen, new variant)
VX CVT = 10,98,000 (2014) (new gen, new variant)

V CVT = 11,53,990 (2017)
VX CVT = 12,84,990 (2017)
ZX CVT = 13,52,990 (2017)


Steep rise - almost 2 lakhs over 2012's pricing, if you look at just the V CVT variant! This is essentially for the same 1.5L, 117PS/145Nm engine and the same CVT+paddle shifts transmission, with a few extra features thrown in.
Also, the difference between manual and CVT options for the same V variant has risen from ~80,000 rupees to ~1.55 lakh rupees! That's nearly DOUBLE!
Eye-watering and mind-boggling!


And now, the diesels.

SV MT = 9,66,000 (2014)
V MT = 10,16,000 (2014)
VX MT = 11,10,000 (2014)

SV MT = 10,75,990 (2017)
V MT = 11,55,990 (2017)
VX MT = 12,86,990 (2017)

Price difference for the SV & V variants is more or less the same, but the VX sees a jack-up of almost 1.77 lakh rupees!
I bought my Empress (2014 V MT diesel) for Rs 10.24 lakhs ex-showroom, and the same V MT now costs Rs 11.64 lakhs!

That's a H-U-G-E difference.


No wonder that 70% of total bookings for the 2017 Honda City are for the petrols, and I am sure a large chunk of those bookings would be for the first 3 variants.
Go any higher (VX/ZX) for the petrols or the CVTs, or for any of the diesels, and it will be a purchase for the bling factor/"City" show-off alone.

The value quotient of the 2017 Honda City range stops at the V variant - be it petrol, diesel or CVT. The VX & ZX are simply not worthy of all that extra moolah, bling-bling all-around LEDs and larger alloys aside.

On the other side of the coin, if the management at Honda Cars India thinks that they can pull off a "Creta" with the 2017 City's pricing, I think they are in for a very unpleasant surprise, once the initial brouhaha dies down.

[bhaskaracs]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

+1



Now Maruti will price the ciaz facelift exorbitantly too, and will justify that as "segment standard". If Maruti can plonk 1.6 DDIS into the ciaz and price it sensibly, I would pick ciaz over any other C2 segment sedan.

I will be not surprised if Maruti actually loads Ciaz with the boosterjet engine sooner to replace its VTVT 1.4l petrol engine (which probably doesn't account for 10% of Ciaz sales). Then they could launch it at a higher state of tune than Baleno RS and also with a 6-speed AT/ CVT. With a comparable BHP and higher torque rating than IVCT, and being an AT, I look forward to Boosterjet demanding a premium closing the gap with ANHC ZX CVT.

[MCR]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

That seems a little bit haughty doesn't it? Though I'm kind of okay with the pricing. At 17 lakhs on road, it's still considerably cheaper than D segment sedans while offering almost everything they offer (and more!).
.

Suzuki S-Cross offers all the equipment other than Sunroof, 6 Airbags and LED lights. It comes with a superb 1.6 engine which is fun to drive and also the ride quality absolutely amazing.

Though it doesn't come with all the niggles as described in the thread below.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...e-anymore.html

So far a Chauffeur driven person, S-Cross is equally good too.

I had a Honda City SV iDTec earlier and the ride quality is not amazing. It can at best be described as above average.

So, as an overall package the Zx Diesel is nothing but a shockingly over priced below average product.

If Honda has such snobbishness (more about attitude), then they would be better to provide really good products like Honda City Gen3. When they talk of car makers who are very well placed in the market with a wide array of products, they better match or exceed with their product too. All their recent launches have been disaster. I am sure the 5K bookings which they are boasting will not last more than a few months or rather once the New Verna and New Ciaz hit the streets.

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by MCR

Suzuki S-Cross offers all the equipment other than Sunroof, 6 Airbags and LED lights. It comes with a superb 1.6 engine which is fun to drive and also the ride quality absolutely amazing.

So far a Chauffeur driven person, S-Cross is equally good too.

I am sure the 5K bookings which they are boasting will not last more than a few months or rather once the New Verna and New Ciaz hit the streets.

Sunroof and 6 airbags are major omissions. And that 1.6 has a major turbo lag which affects in-city drivability. And if ride quality is good, then it won't be THAT much FTD. For good handling, you need stiff suspension.

And have you sat in the City? If yes, then you must know the amount of space it as in back. And the cushioning of the seats.

As far as niggles go, all cars have them. Am sure S-Cross has a set of them too.

And Verna and Ciaz themselves are no epitome of quality. City is the best all rounder and sales all these years prove it. And am pretty sure they would've addressed any issues in this launch.

Price is justifiable like I said before.

[deetjohn]

We have seen this before, haven't we?

Toyota did it successfully with the Innova and Fortuner. Now, how can Honda be left behind??

Its a rather brilliant business strategy in our market with so called value conscious consumers.

Keep that price rising from time to time - it can be a new model (Crysta), can be a face-lift (2013 Innova, 2017 City) or the all time favorite option of rising manufacturing costs and taxes (at the beginning of each year once the older stock is moved out).

And, how does it work in our market?? Very well indeed!

1) Customers are happy - both the old and new. Old ones gets a better resale, and new ones gets their better status I suppose. Honda wants us to believe that City is no longer a competitor for Ciaz and has moved up a segment. Innova did the same to demolish the Lodgy.

And City is going there. Just take a look at the official TV commercial! Let me quote directly from that advertisement: "You are in a league of your own", Your world is different from the rest", "You are world ahead like the new 2017 City". It would have been so funny, had it not been so miserable.

2) So, with an increased price, the manufacturer gets dual benefit. The product doesn't have any effective competition - its stands on its own. And if none of the customers are comparing, you have simply won the game already. We have seen posts where even BHPians are doing it on this very thread. Sigh! Now, we can imagine what the general public is going to think.

3) And let us not even go near the profit realization for each model. The 2017 City is a face-lift of a model which debuted in late 2013 with not many changes mechanically. Its not like we are getting a better drive-train or an improved chassis. How can it be so expensive?? Beats me!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

And if ride quality is good, then it won't be THAT much FTD. For good handling, you need stiff suspension.

Not really. Most European cars offer a better ride while being excellent around the corners. And the S-Cross has more European roots than Japanese.

Qouting from both team-bhp reviews -

S-Cross -

There is only one way to say it = On-road behaviour is more European than Japanese. The way that the S-Cross can mask speeds is commendable...or downright dangerous - whichever way you look at it! Firstly, that sweet 1.6L diesel takes you well into triple-digit speeds without you ever having to try hard. Secondly, at those speeds, you don't feel like you're actually driving fast (unless you look at the speedometer). The stability is rock solid. Credit must be given to the excellent driving dynamics of this car. The S-Cross feels tight and eager to change direction without ever feeling skittish or nervous when cornering. Due to the jacked-up ground clearance (180 mm), there is body roll, yet it's not something you'd find unnerving. Low speed ride isn't what you'd consider soft or plush. Instead, it's on the tighter side of the spectrum. The suspension certainly isn't stiff or jarring; again, it is a lot like European cars. High speed ride quality is excellent and the car remains absolutely flat, ironing out all of the road imperfections. When the S-Cross hits large bumps at high speed, it recovers almost instantly, and without any of the pitching or vertical bobbing movement you see in other cars. There's no crashing or banging of the suspension on bumps and potholes either - just mature and extremely well-muted thuds. This planted behaviour is terrific. It's a beauty on the highway and just gets better and better with speed! A downside to that is, in the city, you can feel the suspension's firmness, with bumps being more obvious than cars with a softer suspension. Nonetheless, ride quality isn't disturbing nor does it have the suspension crashing through bad sections of the road. To put things into perspective, this car handles like a more mature Swift and enthusiasts will surely have a smile plastered on their face when behind the wheel. Family men too will strike a great balance, with not a complaint from the rear.

City -

The City is a safe handler by family sedan standards, displaying fairly neutral behaviour, but lacking the sheer dynamics of the Europeans. The steering is direct & responsive, while grip levels are safe & predictable. On the limit, it will understeer progressively. The diesel does feel more front-heavy when compared to the petrol though. High speed stability is decent and the car doesn't feel overtly nervous. Still, the light build is obvious and the City isn't as planted as the segment benchmarks. This is especially obvious on uneven highways where (again) the rear end refuses to stay flat. What doesn't help on the expressway is the EPS remaining light & sensitive. You need to maintain a very firm hand over 100 kph. The electric steering does feel like a playstation wheel and there's no feedback to speak of. Overall, the suspension is middle-of-the-way in the C2 segment. The City is superior to the likes of the Verna, although it can't match the finesse of the Linea, Rapid & Vento.

[MCR]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Sunroof and 6 airbags are major omissions. And that 1.6 has a major turbo lag which affects in-city drivability. And if ride quality is good, then it won't be THAT much FTD. For good handling, you need stiff suspension. .

Oh is it? Do you know a car called Punto which has both fantastic ride quality and excellent handling? I had it for 1.10 Lakh Kms and Honda City is no where close to it. S-Cross is somewhat comparable and not as bad as Honda City. So suspension can definitely be tuned for both ride quality and handling.
Coming to 6 Airbags, yes its definitely a very good feature. I cannot say the same about sunroof in a hot tropical country like ours!

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

And have you sat in the City? If yes, then you must know the amount of space it as in back. And the cushioning of the seats.

Did you even read my earlier post

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

As far as niggles go, all cars have them. Am sure S-Cross has a set of them too.

And Verna and Ciaz themselves are no epitome of quality. City is the best all rounder and sales all these years prove it. And am pretty sure they would've addressed any issues in this launch.

Niggles : Yes may be they are there in other cars. But it is not expected when somebody calls themselves premium. It was not present in third generation City. Have you been in the Verna? If yes then you would not say that it is not premium.

By the way how do you know the issues have been addressed with this launch? If you read the posts (especially ones from Volkmann10) the NVH is as bad as earlier in the diesel variant!

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Price is justifiable like I said before.

Good for you

Moderators please excuse me if I have gone way off topic!

[poloman]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

More i see the new prices of variants across various car makes, the more i believe we as customers are royally taken for a ride! Honda city and 17 Lakhs?! For a cheap tin can why would anyone pay so much? Yes they are more reliable than some euro makes but service these days are nothing to talk about. Even maintenance after 40k kms is not what i would term cheap.

Right from a Duster to a S cross seems more VFM now, even that horrid Creta seems better off!

This trend is due to the customers, who blindly buy anything Japanese and don't voice real picture down the course of ownership. Mind you we have had honda's since 2002 IIRC and still have the Crv, and atleast in Banagalore i feel maintaining them is more pain compared to Ford, Toyota and MUL.

City for a Civic price! Brilliant lol

I think we are getting a little uncharitable over here.The base model costs around 10L on road and 17L is top of line. I am not a fan of Honda but love the City facelift and think that this car is much more aspirational than a Duster or S cross or a Creta. It is strange for us to cry hoarse only when car prices go high, when everything around us are becoming costlier every passing year. Some of the new features like diamond cut alloys, sunroof, LED lights, all costs money. Now a days people are willing to pay for good features. So if you cut corners and provide something specific for Indian market, egoistic Indians will make sure that is going to be a sure shot failure.
Cheap tin..umm I don't think going by fatality rates in accidents, Honda cars are no way different from other cars in this department.

[Avikbrio]

Will be keeping an eye on ZX Diesel variants on the roads here in Bangalore. I am expecting to see quite a lot of them.

Did Honda keep the Creta and Innova in the back of the mind while pricing the City? Maybe. I think they assume themselves to be the same 'premium brand' as the other two. Maybe the public might lap it up too (like the Innova Crysta/Fortuner). We have to wait and see.