[supremeBaleno]

^^^@Vid6639, the intention was actually to show that someone walking alive out of a bad-crash does not in any way mean the car is safe. This was a response to a post that said that in the absence of crash-results, we could look at crash-pics and judge which is safe by the occupants coming out alive. Not in any way intended to prove safety of the Lancer.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And you do not need to be an Einstein to figure out why their small cars are efficient. Small engine, bantam light weight bodies but they also bring along a whole lot of compromises.

The older M800, Alto, Estilo etc yes. But not the newer ones like Swift, A-Star etc which come with engines/power on par with the competition, deliver best-of-segment FE and have all safety features and bells & whistles. And a heavier build too, without a compromise on FE. So, it is not like FE is the sole preserve of 800cc / 600kg cars.

[saket77]

Please allow me to share another insight to the smaller, cheaper Japanese tin boxes as stated by many.
The M800/ Alto etc. may be unsafe cars when compared to the Euro cars, they might have also scored a zero in the crash test results, but please do keep in mind that they provide safety to a middle class family who would rather travel on a bike or a scooter if they had not had bought the cheapest cars in the market which they can afford to a maximum.
If there would be only Euro cars in the market, then the minimum one would have to spend to get them would be north of Rs. 5 lacs for cars like Punto, Polo, Figo etc. 5 lacs is a big sum for an Indian middle class family. If Maruti provides a cheap 3 lac rupee hatchback to them and they decide to upgrade from a two wheeler, then it is an exponential step up in terms of their safety. If there would have no such option, such families would be still riding the 2 wheelers on the unsafe roads. It is also not a rare sight to spot all 4 members of a family on one 2 wheeler, at the same time.

Can Euro cars provide this safety to the average Indian middle class by offering a car at that price? Hence, tailor made cars for India, to suit the requirements is not all that a bad thing as made out to be. All one has to do is to look upon from a practical perspective.

Thanks,
Saket

[sivadas]

I have picked up European cars so far and will mostly repeat it if I need to choose another one now. But this is definitely not based on any brand loyalty or blind faith on European cars. It is more to do with my concepts of what/how a car should be. So every individual should mostly be having similar concepts on his choice of car. Some people acquire these aspects/impressions based on their first hand experience or from reading magazines/online forums like TBHP. But the majority get their car concepts purely from what they hear from others (general public feeling which spreads through word of mouth).

In my case, I have bought a Fiat (Petra) when public feeling was generally against it. And took a Laura when Skoda's impression was quite bad.But I didn't have to face any of the perceived (major) problems in either of my choices. And of course, I was mentally prepared for paying higher price for the parts (in Skoda's case) and wait for parts (in Fiat's case).

So here are my views on few of the key aspects of a car:

Looks:
I normally get attracted to understated look rather than flashy ones.

Power :
I am literally greedy for power/torque though don't drive fast most of the times.

Car style:
Love sedans, no liking to SUVs and dislike Vans.

Technology and Features:
Like it, but would prefer power over features.

Price:
Don't mind stretching but cannot really afford the 3 big German brands. And don't want their entry level (lower powered) versions.

Safety:
Airbag and ABS are must have (did not know the importance during my first car buy). Additional technology is welcome, but not ready to pay the premium. Love the cars with solid feel rather than lighter ones.

Fuel efficiency:
Anything above 10 Kmpl is satisfactory. Cannot afford to maintain below 10 kmpl ones.

Car brand & ASS:
Not very important. I have read/seen enough to understand that none of the ASS are so bad or good. In case of regular issues most of the dealers quite good. But in case of complex issues, there is a chance of lapses and blunders.

According to me, Safety is the only parameter where people shouldn't have any difference of opinion. I mean, everyone should agree to pay for their basic safety (ABS and at least 2 Airbags)and Government should make it mandatory. Now on all other parameters, people can have various opinions and accordingly they choose their car.

But as said before, most of the general public takes a short cut. As they are not interested in reading/learning about cars on a regular basis, they depend heavily on the prevalent public impression. Maximum they do is to consult few of their friends, sometimes read few online reviews and many of them don't even take a proper test drive. This is where brands like Maruti and Hyundai are having a well deserved advantage over others. I always felt that some of the European brands (especially Fiat and Renault) could have attained the same reputations as Suzuki or Hyundai if they had the right vision, dedication and strategies.

So I may appear like a European lover, but if there are any non-European brands matching my expectations, I will definitely buy it. For that matter if I get an Evo in the 20 lacs range, I will definitely go for it.
By the way, in this poll I have voted for the European side .

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The older M800, Alto, Estilo etc yes. But not the newer ones like Swift, A-Star etc which come with engines/power on par with the competition, deliver best-of-segment FE and have all safety features and bells & whistles. And a heavier build too, without a compromise on FE. So, it is not like FE is the sole preserve of 800cc / 600kg cars.

Rhetorics won't do. As an example A-Star is just 860 kgs and comes with a 1 liter engine so it will be efficient. The same reason why Nano is one of the most efficient car in India. While they may slightly more efficient due to their lighter build, manufacturer quoted kerb weight not withstanding, the European diesels on the other hand are both more powerful and efficient compared to their japanese rivals.
I already gave you examples of SX4, Grand Vitara and the Kizashi and they can be favourably compared with the European car in the same segment.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

All round discs is indeed a good thing and so are wider tyres - a good sign of focus on safety/stability. But if that is indeed their ethos, why is it only for a specific model and not standard fitment across all models of Linea ? Or is it that safety is only for those buying the T-Jet ? Why is even ABS & airbags not given on lower trims ? Atleast Honda has made ABS & airbags standard on all trims.

The least size on the fiat is atleast a 15" 185 tyre and the city is what 165? And if you change the tyre size on the City, you get your warranty void.

Lower trims? Not. Lower trim, yes. The air bags/ABS are available on both the Emotion variant as well as Dynamic variants of the Linea.

Honda has airbags across all trims? Of what? The Honda city yes! But that has only one Airbag (not even dual stage across in any variant)in the E and S trims if you didnt know. So Honda cares about you only if you are driving the car? The co-driver is of less importance?

How about the Honda Brio? Do you all variants with the Airbag and ABS? No.
How about the Honda Amaze? Do you see all variants with the Airbag and ABS? . Hell No. So Honda is no Saint either!!

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If it were as easy as looking at crash pictures to decide which car is safe, there was no need for crash-tests and ratings.

Check out these snaps from our own accident thread - a Jap car in a very serious accident, with the driver coming out safe and is also a member here.
If somebody looks at these snaps and applies your 'theory' and says that since the driver walked out alive inspite of such a scary accident, the Lancer is the safest car,
then one can only pity them for their naiveness and you for misleading them.

So you have managed to come up with one picture in which there were survivors in a Indo-Jap car accident. That too a car built in 1995 for a discussion happening in 2014. Awesome.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Please stop scrubbing the same old broken record of 'heavy' cars, because that myth has been broken clear and proper in today's context with the kerb-weight of Linea/SX4/Vento. And who told you that heavy is automatically fuel inefficient. There are cars out there that are fun to drive, fuel-efficient and weigh well too. Just that Fiat has not got it in them when it comes to improving FE.

Several people have quoted here that the SX4 is an exception. Please bring on the others. Have you heard about something called metallurgy?

You are involved in Fiat bashing without any information of their fuel efficiency. I have a T-Jet and it has given me a mileage of 16.5 all the way on a Pune- Blore trip (inclusive of Pune as well as Bangalore city driving with speeds ranging from 80-120 with occasional burst of higher speeds) . How many other petrol cars do you want to bring on? Am not even quoting the MJD figures here

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The fuel efficiency associated with brand Maruti is primarily due to the number of small cars that they sell. Their bigger cars are either less efficient or on part with the competition. Case in point - SX4 or the Kizashi or the Grand Vitara.
And you do not need to be an Einstein to figure out why their small cars are efficient. Small engine, bantam light weight bodies but they also bring along a whole lot of compromises.

Hey, we just dont compare the fuel efficiency of big cars when it comes to the Japanese cars!! (Heavy Sarcasm intended). We compare only the smaller ones. But yes, we include them when it comes to calculating the weight!

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Rhetorics won't do. As an example A-Star is just 860 kgs and comes with a 1 liter engine so it will be efficient. The same reason why Nano is one of the most efficient car in India. While they may slightly more efficient due to their lighter build, manufacturer quoted kerb weight not withstanding, the European diesels on the other hand are both more powerful and efficient compared to their japanese rivals.
I already gave you examples of SX4, Grand Vitara and the Kizashi and they can be favourably compared with the European car in the same segment.

Probably I should add retorts to the rhetorics as well!!

Precisely on the point for bigger cars. When it comes to the big league, the men are separated from the boys!

So the European cars are guilty until proven innocent (in terms of reliability and fuel efficiency) but the Japanese are innocent until proven guilty (in terms of safety and handling). These guys need to be shot in the butt!!

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Rhetorics won't do. As an example A-Star is just 860 kgs and comes with a 1 liter engine so it will be efficient. The same reason why Nano is one of the most efficient car in India. While they may slightly more efficient due to their lighter build, manufacturer quoted kerb weight not withstanding, the European diesels on the other hand are both more powerful and efficient compared to their japanese rivals.

Where was the rhetoric ? Tell me a EU car that is the A-Star's peer in terms of build/engine and can beat it in FE. With the Swift-P again, show me a peer that can beat it in FE while being a peer in segment/engine. And talking of EU diesels, IIRC the Amaze-D beats everyone hollow in FE while being a 1.5diesel. Infact the Fiat MJD has proven to be a much better fit on the Jap Swift in terms of FE/FTD than the parent's Punto. And we are not even talking sales, which would make Fiat blush a deep red. Nano, yawn !!!

Originally Posted by JayKis

Not. Lower trim, yes. The air bags/ABS are available on both the Emotion variant as well as Dynamic variants of the Linea.

Why ? The few hundred odd folks that buy the Active variant of the total monthly sales of 900 units of Fiat don't qualify as humans ? LOL !!!

Originally Posted by JayKis

Several people have quoted here that the SX4 is an exception. Please bring on the others. Have you heard about something called metallurgy?

Several people saying something does not make it the truth.

Originally Posted by JayKis

I have a T-Jet and it has given me a mileage of 16.5 all the way on a Pune- Blore trip (inclusive of Pune as well as Bangalore city driving with speeds ranging from 80-120 with occasional burst of higher speeds).

All I can say is that you bought the wrong car buddy, if you bought the T-Jet to drive it at 80kmph.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by JayKis

So you have managed to come up with one picture in which there were survivors in a Indo-Jap car accident. That too a car built in 1995 for a discussion happening in 2014. Awesome.

You obviously haven't got the point of that post now have you? Try understanding something before you jump your guns. If nothing else, it might save you the embarrassment next time.

Originally Posted by JayKis

Several people have quoted here that the SX4 is an exception. Please bring on the others. Have you heard about something called metallurgy?

What others are you talking about? Does Fiat offer two models in the C2 segment? Does Volkswagen do so? No.
The SX4 does admirably in the C2 segment (I'm not saying it is the best, but comparable to the top ones)
The Kizashi does admirably in the D2 segment (note: segment best, of the offerings we have here, barring the Volvo S60)
The Grand Vitara does decently amongst the rest in its class (granted. It should be comming with more safety equipment today, but when it was, launched that was the norm. Perhaps we can quote the X-Trail, CR-V or Paj sport for Jap SUV offering that perform well in regards to safety)
AND, if preliminary test results and expert comments are to be believed, the Swift we get here, might not be as cheap as we thought. Infact it apparently is comparable to the Polo/Figo though not exactly as good as the Polo.

About the rest, here let me say it: I dont believe the Ertiga, Wagon R, Alto 800 and Versa are safe. However, do the western brands offer anything in those segments?

Originally Posted by JayKis

Hey, we just dont compare the fuel efficiency of big cars when it comes to the Japanese cars!! (Heavy Sarcasm intended). We compare only the smaller ones. But yes, we include them when it comes to calculating the weight!

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The European diesels on the other hand are both more powerful and efficient compared to their japanese rivals.
I already gave you examples of SX4, Grand Vitara and the Kizashi and they can be favourably compared with the European car in the same segment.

I don't know about the rest, and even company claimed mileage figures might agree with you, but I (not just me, even bhp-ian Rockporiom, the only other active manual Kizashi owner) believe that our cars are surprisingly frugal. Regularly achieve 9-11 in traffic conditions (remember Hyderabad's metro construction is on-going so that's no joke) while an older gentleman I know with a 1.8tsi Skoda Superb, complains of getting only 8-9 in the same conditions. On the highways, I usually average 13 with speeds of 12-140 with occasional stretches at 160.Once, on the Bangalore-Hyderabad smooth highway, we (my father, my mother and I with a full boot) were travelling with cruise control set to 120kph, and I noticed a Skoda Superb following us, at the same speed with no intention of overtaking since he found it comfortable too. We then made a stop for lunch, and the guy in the Superb, stopped at the same place too. After we were done eating, the Superb owner came upto us and asked me how much I managed to average (up until the lunch stop) I replied 14.4kmpl and he was shocked saying he only got 12.5. Turns out his was a smaller displacement turbocharged petrol motor too.
The maximum I ever recorded was 17kmpl while cruising at 70 in the dark empty streets of Hyderabad at 2:30 in the night with no bursts of speed at all, and 15 kmpl while coming from Bangalore to Hyderabad and maintaining an average speed of 90 kmph (these figures were cross checked too)
Not suggesting anything here. Just stating the truth as an owner.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Where was the rhetoric ? Tell me a EU car that is the A-Star's peer in terms of build/engine and can beat it in FE. With the Swift-P again, show me a peer that can beat it in FE while being a peer in segment/engine.

So having no peers means default win for A-Star? This is what I meant when I said rhetoric. The all new BMW M3 with a 400+ bhp's is officially capable of 34 mpg. Show me one jap which can do that? So lets dismiss all of them!
I already conceded that they are slightly more efficient but that in part is also due to their light build and the fact that Europeans aren't as much into small petrol motors as they are into efficient diesels. Having said that look at their high capacity high performance petrol motors and there isn't a thing that the japs can do to touch them.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And talking of EU diesels, IIRC the Amaze-D beats everyone hollow in FE while being a 1.5diesel. Infact the Fiat MJD has proven to be a much better fit on the Jap Swift in terms of FE/FTD than the parent's Punto. And we are not even talking sales, which would make Fiat blush a deep red. Nano, yawn !!!

Except that the so called 100 bhp Diesel does not feel like 100 bhp and the comparison is being made with an engine launched in 2003 which is not only smaller in capacity but also considerably less powerful and yet manages to offer almost same levels performance and economy. The less said about the refinement, the better.
Install the MJD in Wagon-R and it doesn't take much to figure out that it will be a better fit performance wise when compared to Punto. Get the drift? Now please do not run through the manufacturer quoted kerb weights because it is getting old. Going purely by instinct and observation how on earth can a Punto feel so solid, the doors so heavy, the chassis so stiff when compared to a Swift of almost same weight (manufacturer quoted). Do they have some magic formula that the japs do not know?
You bias is clearly visible here. MJD in Swift is great but is crap if used anywhere else.

Compared to the other japs in the Indian market, Suzuki is nowhere close when it comes to the build quality of their cars and so when you say japs, it is not one entity. There is a reason why Suzuki's are a failure outside India.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

So having no peers means default win for A-Star? This is what I meant when I said rhetoric.

I also mentioned the Swift-P, it does have peers right - one of them being the Punto-P. But we all know how the 'fire' engines play out when compared to the K-Series, right. Inspite of the so-called build and thud, why is it that even Fiat lovers don't touch the Fiat petrols with a barge pole.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

the comparison is being made with an engine launched in 2003

Launched in 2003, but in use here currently in similar segments and thus relevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Now please do not run through the manufacturer quoted kerb weights because it is getting old. Going purely by instinct and observation

Ha, manufacturer given figures are not relevant inspite of being hard data, but instinct and observation are more important which vary from person to person. As mentioned earlier, let us request an I&O (instinct & observation) section to be added in NCAP.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Compared to the other japs in the Indian market, Suzuki is nowhere close when it comes to the build quality of their cars and so when you say japs, it is not one entity. There is a reason why Suzuki's are a failure outside India.

LOL, the thread is about Japs vs Euro. Not about Suzuki or Honda in particular. And who cares what Suzuki does outside India - this thread is about our preference for cars in India. LOL.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I also mentioned the Swift-P, it does have peers right - one of them being the Punto-P. But we all know how the 'fire' engines play out when compared to the K-Series, right. Inspite of the so-called build and thud, why is it that even Fiat lovers don't touch the Fiat petrols with a barge pole.

Because European diesels are more preferable than Euro petrol unless you talk about the likes of VW TSi.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Launched in 2003, but in use here currently in similar segments and thus relevant to the discussion.

Then why do you selectively chose the 1.3 MJD instead of the 1.6 diesel in the Vento/Rapid?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Ha, manufacturer given figures are not relevant inspite of being hard data, but instinct and observation are more important which vary from person to person. As mentioned earlier, let us request an I&O (instinct & observation) section to be added in NCAP.

When the passed on hard data and observation contradict, you have to doubt the so called official figures. How is it that the Europeans always feel like their weight and the Suzuki's dont?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

LOL, the thread is about Japs vs Euro. Not about Suzuki or Honda in particular. And who cares what Suzuki does outside India - this thread is about our preference for cars in India. LOL.

And our preferences are pretty clear. Fuel efficient small tin cans from Suzuki is all we want. When it comes to proper cars they are nowhere to be found.

[TorqueyTechie]

I believe this discussion is being taken out of context. The thread was started to just bring out the people's mindset in choosing a make/brand but it has digressed way beyond it.

Each person would have his own reasons for choosing/selecting a car. It can be the price or the fuel efficiency or the accessories or the looks or the safety or speed or simply emotional attachment to the brand (yes there are people like that).

Maruti came up with an affordable car which made many people dream and also afford a car when there was no NCAP or any other. So yes they have been able to successfully get the people to like the brand and also the car. It shows in the success ratio of their cars with very few being market duds. Similarly any other japanese brands.

Likewise if you consider any european brands most of them have great lineup of cars and have tried but are not able to match up to the standards set by these japanese/korean car makers in terms of sales or service, but it does not mean that there cars are bad either.

God knows what would have happened if all these car makers had entered the indian market at the same time and all had provided a great sales and service network. It might have been different scenario altogether.

Advantages of Asian cars: FE (prime factor), looks, good service and generally good reliability.

Advantages of Euro cars: Solid/Sturdy design, Power and handling.

Its upto us to choose what is that we want in a new car and to plunge.

[saadat1992]

The Japs all the way!
As an Indian and as a person who prefers what the mind says, I'd opt for the cars from the land of the rising sun. Japanese cars might not have the build quality and desirability of the european cars but will surely won't leave a hole in your wallet on the long run.
The reliability of Japs is still unparalleled! Their service costs too (esp Toyota) is really low and like GTO said, japs are more FE.
European cars are something close to my heart. Their desirability, their styling, their quality & their power(Esp the VW & Skoda brothers) are to die for. But, after reading many horror stories about the issues that arise when the cars get older, makes me stick with the Japs.
If i had an option to own 2 cars, I'd pick a Jap for primary use and then a European for the weekends.

[aravind.anand]

I might stick with the Japs for now, as reliability and low running costs are what I am looking for. But when I finally make it big in my life, I would rather be driving a European car with class and opulence! The Japanese car can then be a second car ( it will mostly last longer than the classy European car )

Japanese cars are the perfect poster cars for a teenager, the European cars are to be felt & enjoyed when maturity starts setting in!

P.S. I drive an American blue oval - easier on the pocket than the Europens, better build than the Japanese... Best of both worlds, and hence my vote goes there

[ecosport rules]

Though I currently drive an American made car and I love it throughly but my garage has had a fair set of mainly Japanese cars due to their reliability, FE and drivers feel. I own a Honda City, Honda Civic other than Ford EcoSport which serves me well without any glitch.

Japanese are mass market kings that speak fuel efficiency and 'a car for all!'. European cars are handsome, strong and make you feel like a king inside but don't go gaga over anything specific. They make every aspect uniform in a car but Japanese look more into what the market really needs and concentrates there more.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

You obviously haven't got the point of that post now have you? Try understanding something before you jump your guns. If nothing else, it might save you the embarrassment next time.

There is no embarrassment for me. If you have enough facts to prove me wrong, I would gladly accept your views. Sadly you dont have any facts on the safety of Japanese cars (made in India) running on the Indian roads. Alternately, we have only accident pics to talk about! Accidents are after all the execution of crash tests in real life with a lot of variables added in. Agree that all of them are different. But after seeing most of the accident pics they dont inspire the confidence to buy a "made for India" Japanese car!


Good to know that you are getting a good mileage out of your Kizashi. The other Kizashi doesnt seem to fare good on the reliability front though.