[firstguri]

Originally Posted by Doge

Why are we complaining that this isn't a real abarth but a "watered down " version? If Fiat would have launched a proper abarth with 140mm GC,every one would have criticised Fiat for not tuning the car for Indian conditions. If this isn't an Abarth, then I'm sorry to say that the VRS( both Octavia and Laura) were nothing but watered down version diluting the VRS brand. Was the Fiesta S a proper S? Nope. What is so "GT" about the Polo GT? It's just a normal super mini everywhere else.
Fiat has done the right thing by "watering down" the abarth. It makes the Abarth Punto a lot more usable and cheaper, after all even if they did launch a proper Abarth Essesse for 16 lacs,every one would scream in joy then get a Creta Automatic.

And I absolutely agree. Fiat has at least made a conscious effort of providing a sporty hatch keeping in mind the Indian market. Which other company has tried even half of this? What did VW do to make Polo GT different apart from engine and gearbox. I'm sure Fiat could have done a lot more but considering the price of such a vehicle, there wouldn't have been any takers. Yes, it's not a pure sports hatchback, but then again which other car is! Even now people are cribbing that if it costs more than Polo GT then it's doomed or it's only a second and a half quicker to 100 than Polo GT and stuff like that. Even prospective buyers like me know it's not a full blown sports hatch like those of developed countries but it's way better than what's available in India. And that's what matters.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

First and foremost- Those who are complaining about "watered down" Abarth are forgetting that the 595 Competizione is available as well - which is the pure international spec as they would want. But then, it wouldn't be practical and is too expensive, they would complain!


Secondly- what is the whole talk on "dilution" of the "Abarth" brand? Common people even think it's a spelling mistake for "Bharat" (ask our KarthikK for funny questions he gets). There is no Abarth brand to dilute here. There is only some ashes left on which FIAT is trying to build.

Can understand the agony if it were to be named FIAT Punto Ferrari in India.


Third. Last but not the least- Let's face reality guys. The hottest hatch we have is a 105ps automatic. The next one is far behind at around 80 odd bhp? Well, people are even happy calling a less than 90ps CVT engined hatch as "hot". Not blaming anyone, but this is the reality. The same reality where I feel my 1.3 diesel 90hp has been fun over the years.

And there is an even bigger reality. We just don't have the infrastructure. Huge potholes, gigantic speed breakers, no proper express highways

And from that reality- Abarth does look like the real thing. It does look like a powerful, sportier, useable and affordable version of a regular FIAT car in the market - and isn't that what Abarth is known for?

[Rubbertramps]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

First and foremost- Those who are complaining about "watered down" Abarth are forgetting that the 595 Competizione is available as well - which is the pure international spec as they would want. But then, it wouldn't be practical and is too expensive, they would complain!

Exactly my point. You don't want a watered down version, you still have the 595. Period. I don't see any constructive comments lauding the efforts made by FIAT. No one can deny the pioneering efforts taken here. I dont want the real Abarth. I am insanely happy with the Indianized Abarth, and it shows how serious the market is taken into consideration.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

If Fiat prices the Punto Abarth any higher than 50 thousand over and above the regular punto, it would for sure kill the product. It has to be cheaper than Polo GT Tsi in any case for it to be successful. As far as I know, there is no DSG or ESP in punto abarth, both of which are deal makers for TSI. So, if punto abarth wants to survive in market without DSG & ESP, it got to be cheaper than TSI.

I personally think that for the package that it is, they don't need to undercut the VW.

The Polo TSI caters to the regular Joe as well as the enthusiast. In fact, most people out there buy it for the automatic transmission. The people who buy it for its engine + transmission combination are far fewer. The Abarth Punto on the other hand caters more to the enthusiast than someone looking for a car to commute in.

Originally Posted by Rubbertramps

Ironically, performance aficionados always prefer manual don't they. Of course the Achilles heel is in the manual gear box in the Punto. But then manual in general is preferred over DSG right. I may be wrong here.

Well, the manual is definitely the more engaging drive without a doubt! There's nothing like the feeling of being in complete control of the shifts. The DSG may not appeal to all enthusiasts but some have embraced it for its quick shifts and convenience.

It's true that the Abarth Punto's Achilles heel is the cumbersome gearbox known for its long throws and clumsy shit action. But as I'd mentioned earlier on this thread, it's a quick fix that should vastly improve the driving experience and it won't burn a hole through your pocket. And while this modification, and perhaps a fruity exhaust note is all you'd need to complete the Abarth package, the TSI will require some more serious mods to have it on par with the likes of the Abarth.

[chaudh2s]

Originally Posted by Rubbertramps

Ironically, performance aficionados always prefer manual don't they. Of course the Achilles heel is in the manual gear box in the Punto. But then manual in general is preferred over DSG right. I may be wrong here.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I personally think that for the package that it is, they don't need to undercut the VW.
The Polo TSI caters to the regular Joe as well as the enthusiast. In fact, most people out there buy it for the automatic transmission. The people who buy it for its engine + transmission combination are far fewer. The Abarth Punto on the other hand caters more to the enthusiast than someone looking for a car to commute in.

I personally feel the word enthusiast is an over virtue'd one in Indian context. I consider myself an enthusiast too. But, i cannot afford going to Budhh for exploring the full potential of my enthusiasm. Its public roads where all my enthusiasm is displayed, and for this even my 73 BHP punto was a gem and now even my grand i10 gives me lot of fun.
A seasoned driver can make a bullock cart into an enthusiastic machine. What makes you an enthusiastic driver? or rather how do you get enthused? Either you approach the limits of your vehicle or when your own limits are about to be broken. For an enthusiastic driver, any vehicle is fun to drive provided you have the skills.
So, from my point of view, Indianised punto abarth is a good move by Fiat but it doesn't have enough from a tech point of view(ESP+DSG) to be priced at a huge premium. For Indian conditions a true enthusiast can derive fun from a 73 BHP punto also and for what abarth punto has, it deserves only 50K premium over the regular one. A 2L premium would have been justified, had our road infrastructure been impeccable or we had german autobahns with no speed limits.
This is how i think, others might have a different thinking. I for one will only consider punto abarth if it is priced at a 50K premium max over regular punto. Otherwise a TSI makes more sense.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

So, from my point of view, Indianised punto abarth is a good move by Fiat but it doesn't have enough from a tech point of view(ESP+DSG) to be priced at a huge premium. For Indian conditions a true enthusiast can derive fun from a 73 BHP punto also and for what abarth punto has, it deserves only 50K premium over the regular one. A 2L premium would have been justified, had our road infrastructure been impeccable or we had german autobahns with no speed limits.
This is how i think, others might have a different thinking.

Pardon my ignorance. I really don't understand this argument.

Are you arguing that FIAT can't price the Abarth Punto 50k more than the NA 1.4 petrol Punto even with 145 bhp TJet and all wheel discs brakes, and those sweet alloys- because the roads are not good? And how would ESP + DSG help make the roads better to suit that price?

I used to drive a WagonR with a cruising speed of 100kmph on the highways. I drive a Punto 90hp at speeds of 100 kmph on the highways. I would drive the Abarth Punto at cruising speeds of 100 kmph on the highways- because I believe that speed strikes a good balance between speed and safety on our roads. Now based on the above logic- should I be expecting FIAT to price the Abarth Punto same as a WagonR since the roads and driving conditions are the same? Infact, driving a fast car slow is lesser fun than driving a slow car fast. So probably FIAT should price it less than the WagonR too?

50k more than the regular NA petrol is not realistic at all!

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

What makes you an enthusiastic driver? or rather how do you get enthused? Either you approach the limits of your vehicle or when your own limits are about to be broken.

By this definition, a person driving an 800 on Indian roads is more of an enthusiast than a person driving a 300hp BMW which cannot be driven anywhere near its limits, nor would the electronic aids allow the car to go anywhere near the driver's limit?

[chaudh2s]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

By this definition, a person driving an 800 on Indian roads is more of an enthusiast than a person driving a 300hp BMW which cannot be driven anywhere near its limits, nor would the electronic aids allow the car to go anywhere near the driver's limit?

Come on, Why not?! An 800 driver can be an enthusiast, driving with such precision and control that a novice 300hp bmw driver is left far behind(on public roads that is). Money can buy you big toys but not skills. A rich person can anyday buy a car with higher limits but what about his own limits? Everyday we see on youtube wannabe enthusiasts with the money to buy a supercar or a 300hp BMW, but not the skills ending up in the bushes. So does that makes that guy enthusiast?! Maybe yes, but not more than that humble 800 driver who can enjoy the limits of his 800 while being safe all the time. Now please don't say 300hp car is more luxurious and has more safety features. We are not discussing that, we are discussing about enthusiasm.

But, a 300BHP car in the hands of a skilled driver, who can reach the cars limits with aids on or off (a car even with aids on has its limits mind you. Aids just lowers the limits of a vehicle, doesn't prevents driver from reaching it) can definitely have more pleasure. But to do this, he needs to visit budhh international circuit, not on public roads. Hence an abarth punto which is intended to be driven on public Indian roads does not provide anything significant to warrant a 2L premium over standard punto. The decals and alloys etc can be purchased from aftermarket too. See BHPian Karthiks punto, it looks similar to abarth punto.

VW generally has a reputation, that they prices its cars on a premium side. When they can provide a poloTSI with a turbocharged engine, 2 airbags, ESP, DSG gearbox, nice quality plastics, very good handling, 0-100 of less than 10sec, at 8.0L, then what extra is abarth punto offering over and above this to warrant a 2.0L premium? You would say 134BHP engine and stiffer suspension. Where will you use all this power and stiff suspension? am sure not on public roads, or would you? Moreover it comes with a manual gearbox, which though is more desirable for enthusiasts, but is way cheaper than a DSG. Keeping these things in light (cost benefit analysis), why do you want to give 2.0L extra for it? It doesn't gets into my head. Or maybe i have started to think more by my head than my heart.

Am sorry my arguments might sound weird to younger generations, but this is what i feel after driving for 25 years now (am much wiser now i think, than what i was maybe 10 years before). Though am also a very big enthusiast. I started driving at the age of 9 on a M800. These days i drive a Gi10 Diesel which is not considered an enthusiasts car, but most other enthusiast drivers i meet on highways are left behind, whether they are in a BMW or a whatever and mind you i rarely drive over 100-120. Sometimes i do find more enthusiastic drivers than myself on the highways who leave me far behind. But that is normal. A true enthusiast doesn't need to be rich to have fun behind the wheels. That is the bottomline.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

Keeping these things in light (cost benefit analysis), why do you want to give 2.0L extra for it? It doesn't gets into my head. Or maybe i have started to think more by my head than my heart.

Am sorry my arguments might sound weird to younger generations,

No. Sounds just about similar to what the nation thinks. Which is why Maruti is able to sell cars with the 1.3 DDiS all the way from Ritz to S-Cross, Renault is able to sell the 1.5 DCi from Pulse to Fluence, Toyota is able to sell the 1.4 D4D from Liva to Corolla etc. You wouldn't agree that the GT TDi is a better choice than a regular Polo TDi.

The whole concept of performance variants of existing cars doesn't make sense to you. You would prefer more premium (in terms of features and technology) or luxurious variants of cars instead. That's fine, really.

That makes the Punto Abarth a wrong car for you. However, it's still not a fair deal expecting the car to be priced within 50k of the regular NA variants just because it's the wrong car for you.

Suppose I hate the Grand i10, and wouldn't buy it even if it was priced at 2L, would it be right for me to say that the right price for the car is 2L?

[Samar117]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

These days i drive a Gi10 Diesel which is not considered an enthusiasts car, but most other enthusiast drivers i meet on highways are left behind, whether they are in a BMW or a whatever and mind you i rarely drive over 100-120. Sometimes i do find more enthusiastic drivers than myself on the highways who leave me far behind. But that is normal. A true enthusiast doesn't need to be rich to have fun behind the wheels. That is the bottomline.

The true bottomline is that an enthusiast shows his enthusiasm on the track, and not on public roads.

Not nitpicking but assuming you cap your speed off at 100-120, this can mean two things, either your Gi10 Diesel is faster than a BMW to 100 which is unlikely I think, the other is that you keep zipping across traffic. Again not a good thing to do.
Admire a car and a person's enthusiasm to his/her car at a parking lot/ somewhere stationary, or go to the track.

[Doge]

Chaudh2s, what you're saying is that the Abarth Punto isn't worth it because it's not as unreliable as a GT TSI. VW might give you ESP and hill hold ( which is useless in an auto) but that's because the DSG needs it, otherwise why doesn't the GT TDI have ESP?
And speaking from an enthusiast point of view, the DSG is the biggest problem on the TSI, not because it'll start grinding and jerking but because it's an Auto! So what's if it's a dual clutch? The Aspire now comes with a dual clutch tranny. So that's better than the abarth as well?
The GT also has the tax advantage because it's a 1.2, unlike the Fiat.
The Fiat also has these USP's if your enthusiasm doesn't end at the gearbox :
> Better brakes. Much better if I compare the Tjet Linea to the GT TSI.
>much, much more reliable!
> fantastic ride quality.
> may not have very good fit and finish but has solid build. Even the Polo is good though.
> Much better steering.
> Interiors may not be built up to the standards of VW but have their own flair and style!
>cheaper spares. A lot cheaper actually.
> subjective but the Abarth is better looking, but what's not subjective is that it looks more "special". I can stick GT badges on a three pot Highline and get away.
> the Fiat has more flair,soul and joy which the Polo lacks. I just couldn't feel that cheerful when I drove a Fiat for the first time compared to when I drove a friends GT TSi. It's quick and the DSG shifts gears really fast but it all felt so electronic, not mechanical. The Polo lacks character IMO.
Another thing,majority of the TSI owners buy it because they need an Auto and are far from an enthusiast but a Linea Tjet owner? Has to be an enthusiast.

[Rubbertramps]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

But, a 300BHP car in the hands of a skilled driver, who can reach the cars limits with aids on or off (a car even with aids on has its limits mind you. Aids just lowers the limits of a vehicle, doesn't prevents driver from reaching it) can definitely have more pleasure. But to do this, he needs to visit budhh international circuit, not on public roads. Hence an abarth punto which is intended to be driven on public Indian roads does not provide anything significant to warrant a 2L premium over standard punto. The decals and alloys etc can be purchased from aftermarket too. See BHPian Karthiks punto, it looks similar to abarth punto.

VW generally has a reputation, that they prices its cars on a premium side. When they can provide a poloTSI with a turbocharged engine, 2 airbags, ESP, DSG gearbox, nice quality plastics, very good handling, 0-100 of less than 10sec, at 8.0L, then what extra is abarth punto offering over and above this to warrant a 2.0L premium? You would say 134BHP engine and stiffer suspension. Where will you use all this power and stiff suspension? am sure not on public roads, or would you? Moreover it comes with a manual gearbox, which though is more desirable for enthusiasts, but is way cheaper than a DSG. Keeping these things in light (cost benefit analysis), why do you want to give 2.0L extra for it? It doesn't gets into my head. Or maybe i have started to think more by my head than my heart.

Am sorry my arguments might sound weird to younger generations, but this is what i feel after driving for 25 years now (am much wiser now i think, than what i was maybe 10 years before). Though am also a very big enthusiast. I started driving at the age of 9 on a M800. These days i drive a Gi10 Diesel which is not considered an enthusiasts car, but most other enthusiast drivers i meet on highways are left behind, whether they are in a BMW or a whatever and mind you i rarely drive over 100-120. Sometimes i do find more enthusiastic drivers than myself on the highways who leave me far behind. But that is normal. A true enthusiast doesn't need to be rich to have fun behind the wheels. That is the bottomline.

If i am not wrong in my understanding, according to your statement you are ready to pay a premium price just for VW's reputation that you claim they have in the market.

Speed alone is not a factor that an enthusiast is looking for. Its the bliss of driving sanely, enjoying the corners(not necessarily a F1 circuit), experiencing the suspension eating potholes gracefully, the made for the driver dashboard, precise steering and certain intricate features as well.

Instead of a Gi10 diesel, you could have still bought a Beat diesel or Celerio Diesel. You could have still left the BMW bite the dust since you are an enthusiast. But you had certain preferences. Some preferences are reserved for a minority of the population, and those little preferences are same for majority of enthusiasts. Period.

[jayded]

I secretly wish none of the true enthusiast cars are cheap. I've had enough of the desi Shumachers in their Alto K10s, Nanos, Swift VDIs and Figos making the roads a nightmare with their antics. It's one reason why the new Figo hatch, though sounds mouthwatering if it comes with the 100bhp, worries me deep inside as well. As for the Abarth, being a Fiat, I'm not scared of numbers.

Please bring the 1.6MJD Abarth too Fiat, pretty please!!

[nakul0888]

Wow, now this is mind blowing. I think this has to be the first automotive forum in the world where people said, "no we don't want a real hot hatch, we prefer a mere tarted up version of the original car with lots of stickers on it, so that it is more practical and useable and cheaper". Well yeah no kidding, such a diluted car would be more useable and cheaper since it's also much worse than the real thing. Well then how about just selling the normal 1.4 as an abarth. That is even more practical and even more cheaper, right?

A 595 competizione is a CBU and costs well over 30 lakhs here in India. The punto is manufactured here in India and that gives us a good shot of making a full on abarth under 20 lakhs. The same was being discussed when a real polo gti was spotted on our roads.

I have got a chance recently to ride shotgun in an ML350 cdi with a friend of mine. The car was fully loaded with 6 adults and a boot full of junk. Now being a total geek I knew the stats of the v6 m class. 0-100 in 7 seconds. What I did not expect was how it actually feels like. If you are just used to normal cars all your life and when you climb into a car like an ml350, you are just not prepared for the violence that comes from mashing your foot on the throttle. Honestly I thought, I was going to have a heart attack.
And you know what Fiat is also capable of selling a car which does 0-100 in 7 seconds, a Punto Abarth. The Real one. 0-100 in 7 seconds felt volcanic in a 2 tonne SUV, what on earth would be the result in a car like a punto?

And if Fiat can make all this performance available under 20 lakhs, a fraction of the price of an m class, you guys say it is not worth it? Because of what? Lower GC? Lower mileage? Are you kidding me? A car like that would allow even a mildly well off fellow to enjoy the kind of performance usually reserved for somebody who splurges 50 lakh plus on a german car at a fraction of the price while being 5 times more fun to drive. That is what a true hot hatch is supposed to be like. Not just being slightly faster than a regular car but one which can keep up with cars 4-5 times its price. Well atleast thats what it means everywhere else in the world. Not sure what it means here though after reading everybody's comments here.

Well just picture this. I was watching an autocar review of our "abarth" on youtube. An european bloke came and commented if something was wrong with the media car. Want to why? Because he said he has a normal 120 bhp t-jet punto back home which is half a second quicker to 100 than our "abarth" version. If that isn't sad I don't know what is.

I have no problem with upcoming punto t jet, its a great choice for people looking for performance and dynamics at that price point. Just wished they stopped calling it an abarth though. It would be great if they could sell the upcoming t-jet punto and the real abarth side by side. So you have got a choice for everyone. Balantly calling a normal car an abarth and marketing it as such is just a lie and wrong in my books. And that goes for all manufacturers

[Doge]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Wow, now this is mind blowing. I think this has to be the first automotive forum in the world where people said, "no we don't want a real hot hatch, we prefer a mere tarted up version of the original car with lots of stickers on it, so that it is more practical and useable and cheaper". Well yeah no kidding, such a diluted car would be more useable and cheaper since it's also much worse than the real thing. Well then how about just selling the normal 1.4 as an abarth. That is even more practical and even more cheaper, right?

You can't jump 15 years forward with our current mind set. Please stop comparing EU to India, we are no where near there.
My 1.5 118 PS City is considered "fast" according to the official review. But in Europe? It would have been termed as "barely bareable".
Why should Fiat produce a car for a market that doesn't exist? And why this pointless criticism now, why not when VW launched the GT?
What is so " Gran Touring " or " Gran Turismo" about it when a Hyundai Getz CRDI can smoke it!
You want full blown versions of performance cars but will you buy them?
For example, Mitsubishi launched the Evo here but everyone thought it's overpriced and they would rather get a diesel 5 series. The beemer was frankly a boat compared to that.

[keroo1099]

Originally Posted by Samar117

The true bottomline is that an enthusiast shows his enthusiasm on the track, and not on public roads.

I think the common misconception is that an enthusiast is someone who likes to drive fast all the time, which is so not true. I think this quote I got of the net says it best.

An individual that loves anything to do with cars and their counterparts, one who can talk for hours about cars and not get tired of it. These people do not hate on others for their vehicle choice and modifications (so called "rice" is irrelevant, that is total shit) but simply encourage creativity and learning. These people are in a somewhat small but lively community worldwide which engages in car meets, TV shows, blogs, forums, games, magazines, etc. Some enjoy just talking about their rides and others like to get their hands greasy. There are those who put time and money into a project car that brings pride to themselves and a beautiful sight and sound for others. Some enthusiasts will form their own cliques such as drifters or those at the drag strip. There are the young teenagers who have less resources but can manage to build up a nice ride and learn from the best. Some enthusiasts prefer American muscle over imports and vice-versa. Some of us bump our music cruisin' down the road. We can look at any car and say anything about it: where it's from, it's drivetrain, it's value. For some it is all about that great rear-wheel drive. Sometimes we just want to get in our car and drive a hundred or so miles to think over things and enjoy the car for what it does, what it's capable of in your hands as a driver. Car enthusiasts will always be where the cars are, sharing our love of the automobile for what a car is, art.

And for me this line says it all.

Sometimes we just want to get in our car and drive a hundred or so miles to think over things and enjoy the car for what it does, what it's capable of in your hands as a driver