[Dry Ice]

My best wishes to TML! Hope this one clicks and lifts their dwindling spirits.

With Zest, they did turn around a few opinions. Speaking from personal experience, people who didn't give Tata a chance earlier, took test drives and even appreciated the product. Sadly though, the conversions were far far less. In the end these same people, plonked their moolah on H, T or a H. No prizes for guessing why. I hope they offer a longer standard warranty and AMCs that cover all the expenses during ownership. Very keen to see how they position it.

--

On other thoughts, they should now push down the Aria further and completely into the commercial segment to take a piece out of the Xylo pie. It has a much better and sorted ride as compared to Xylo - seems more spacious as well. I was pleasantly surprised the other day when I travelled in one (office cab). I see no reason why it cannot succeed in this segment. Launch it with a new name if you want!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by wheeledsoul

Price it (top end) @ 13.99 - 14.99 to kill the XUV and Innova in one go, including the Innova next gen. They can even attract a few Duster/Terrano customers too. Safari will still retain the aspirational value and will not be affected by it.

The sub 10L (9.99L) was the bare bones model with ABS, EBD, dual airbags, and a humble ICE. Now I guess it isn't like asking for the moon.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

That is a traditional way of pricing and thinking, Tata has tried it, and not succeeded in the Zest and the Bolt. The reason is when they launched the Aria at that 18 lakh odd price, people did queue up to buy it, however for the premium pricing buyers expected premium quality and premium service, both of which Tata lacked. Now the situation is so bad, that even with premium quality, acceptable service and undercut pricing people are simply not buying the Zest or Bolt, because of the Tata batch.

What Tata must try is to succeed in making a no frills version of the Hexa. Build it strong, build it well, no niggles, no lack of QC, provide efficient service, and price this version competitively. Then proceed the bike makers way and start providing all the accessories in house as addons. So the great sound system, the touch screen, cruise control etc can be added/enabled as modules when the customer pays for it. Let the basic version have airbags, abs and ebd, may be a choice of 4x2 and 4x4.
When people find out that the car is reliable, service is good, they may not mind buying addons, and subsequently increase profits for Tata.

Without the marketing lingo and fundas, its a simple mindset thing. The Indian market is simply not mentally prepared for an Indian SUV or MUV at anything over 15+ lacs.

For that they can have a basic barebones version at the mental "value" 10 lac mark, a middle of the road upper middle class exec 12-12.5 lac mark, and a bells and whistles pampered luxury 14.5-15 lac tops mark.

There is no sense in bucking the customer's mindset with logic and mathematics. Because you may be right, but he is paying. Obviously you cannot sell at a loss. But if you want market penetration and brand consolidation, then you would have to go the slow and painful route of selling at wafer thin margins till the public perception of the brand and the "value proposition to price demanded/willing to pay" eventually changes.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Without the marketing lingo and fundas, its a simple mindset thing. The Indian market is simply not mentally prepared for an Indian SUV or MUV at anything over 15+ lacs.

For that they can have a basic barebones version at the mental "value" 10 lac mark, a middle of the road upper middle class exec 12-12.5 lac mark, and a bells and whistles pampered luxury 14.5-15 lac tops mark.

You made a very good point there 'Indian SUV', which also highlights our racist and self defeatist mentality. Leaving that for some other thread, why should Tata not launch the Hexa and all future SUV under a new 'non Indian' brand, say may be a low cost/tailored for India subsidiary of JLR? Takes care of two issues doesn't it? Attracts our crowds to a 'firangi' brand + brand and image and secondly takes away from the negativity associated with Tata brand.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

You made a very good point there 'Indian SUV', which also highlights our racist and self defeatist mentality. Leaving that for some other thread, why should Tata not launch the Hexa and all future SUV under a new 'non Indian' brand, say may be a low cost/tailored for India subsidiary of JLR? Takes care of two issues doesn't it? Attracts our crowds to a 'firangi' brand + brand and image and secondly takes away from the negativity associated with Tata brand.

Yes, reverse racism exists. The world over. Stronger in some cultures than the other. Ghar ki murgi daal baraabar.

Facts of life. Reality.

Tata can set out to either change our genetic mentation over say the next 4-5 generations. And put man and money and time into the effort.

Or they can accept reality and price according to the mindset of the market they want to sell in.

Or they can stop making the product.

Or they can sell the product in a market which is willing to pay more either because they can or because they perceive greater value in it vis a vis the price demanded.

P.S. Tata establishing a new "faux firangi" brand will still be seen by us as Tata.

We already know the Hexa is Tata. So Tata cannot pull a fast one by selling the Hexa under the JLR badge abroad first and launch it in India a year later.

Best option, they should move the R&D of high value "Tata" products to their JLR facilities abroad, launch it under the JLR badge abroad, and then bring them back to India.

Remember, how much are Indians wiling to pay for an Indian KTM? How much is the same KTM retailing for in the UK, Australia, EU, and now the US?

P.P.S. Foreign client partners of mine I had taken for dinner once when they saw the Storme for the first time, were admiring it and wondering which brand it was. The name caused a great deal of mirth because it means something else in their country (the US of A). But the point is, hardcore WASP Americans from the land of big SUVs appreciate the Storme and thought it cost a LOT more than what it does. When I told them the price you could see the surprise and mild envy in their eyes.

But can Tata bank on this to joe (ram/rahim) public in India? Their sales obviously indicate not.

To summarize, and be honest, knowing the ethics of the Tata group and their patriotism, they are not going to skimp on Indian products and sell better componented versions abroad. Also I do not believe that their employees are any less intelligent than us to not see what we can see (and discuss here). Still if Tata continues to sell the products, and continues to sell them at these prices, it tells me that there is not a bull-headed stupidity or ego or a disconnect from reality behind this. Instead I believe that Tata actually have to sell the product at this price to make any money on it. They are a business after all, with share holders.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Or they can accept reality and price according to the mindset of the market they want to sell in.

Or they can stop making the product.

Or they can sell the product in a market which is willing to pay more either because they can or because they perceive greater value in it vis a vis the price demanded.

Market price of a Tata would be below the cost price of the product. A XUV with syntex water tank grade interior plastics sells much more than the superior soft touch interiors of a Storme. That is the kind of hole Tata have dug themselves into. I believe their brand name in India is way down, along with Premier or Hindustan motors.
Mahindra is an Indian brand, who has carved out a niche place for themselves, which Tata in-spite of all the goodwill failed to. That's why I believe they must launch a sub brand of JLR or some other company with a far better image and launch all new passenger cars under that brand name. Tata brand name is sunk too far to recover and no amount of good products like Zest or Storme can recover it.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Market price of a Tata would be below the cost price of the product. A XUV with syntex water tank grade interior plastics sells much more than the superior soft touch interiors of a Storme. That is the kind of hole Tata have dug themselves into. I believe their brand name in India is way down, along with Premier or Hindustan motors.
Mahindra is an Indian brand, who has carved out a niche place for themselves, which Tata in-spite of all the goodwill failed to. That's why I believe they must launch a sub brand of JLR or some other company with a far better image and launch all new passenger cars under that brand name. Tata brand name is sunk too far to recover and no amount of good products like Zest or Storme can recover it.

This is what I added last above while you made your post -

"To summarize, and be honest, knowing the ethics of the Tata group and their patriotism, they are not going to skimp on Indian products and sell better componented versions abroad. Also I do not believe that their employees are any less intelligent than us to not see what we can see (and discuss here). Still if Tata continues to sell the products, and continues to sell them at these prices, it tells me that there is not a bull-headed stupidity or ego or a disconnect from reality behind this. Instead I believe that Tata actually have to sell the product at this price to make any money on it. They are a business after all, with share holders."

Another thing about Tata I must share is that they are very proud of their name. Ever kid of a Tata employee is.

They would see their buy off of JLR as an Indian thing first, and a Tata thing next.

I do not see them budging on this bro to be honest. And I am proud of them for it, however many Stormes or Zests they sell.

They will sell better and better products, at the prices they can. It is for the Indian public to come around. Not for Tata to compromise on what has made it the most respected Indian name over more than a century of manufacturing and building the nation and doing business globally.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Another thing about Tata I must share is that they are very proud of their name. Ever kid of a Tata employee is.

They would see their buy off of JLR as an Indian thing first, and a Tata thing next.

I do not see them budging on this bro to be honest. And I am proud of them for it, however many Stormes or Zests they sell.

They will sell better and better products, at the prices they can. It is for the Indian public to come around. Not for Tata compromise on what has made it the most respected Indian name over more than a century of manufacturing and building the nation and doing business globally.

I agree. We all love the Tatas as Indians. However the first rule of business ethics is : doing what is good for your business. May be being bullheaded is patriotic, but may not be right for the business.. Or else you and I can polish and look after our Stormes and discuss them in the vintage and classics section.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I agree. We all love the Tatas as Indians. However the first rule of business ethics is : doing what is good for your business. May be being bullheaded is patriotic, but may not be right for the business.. Or else you and I can polish and look after our Stormes and discuss them in the vintage and classics section.

My younger bro is a senior exec in Tata Sons.

Tata Motors is doing phenomenally well around the world (except India). Both JLR as well as Tata Motors themselves.

No one internally is unduly perturbed or near worried to be honest.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

My younger bro is a senior exec in Tata Sons.

Tata Motors is doing phenomenally well around the world (except India). Both JLR as well as Tata Motors themselves.

No one internally is unduly perturbed or near worried to be honest.

I am horrified!! So the Indian arm (parent arm) of Tata motors is in doldrums, and the Indian management is happy because overall they are making money, it doesn't matter that they are slipping on Indian sales month on month??

Btw: Premier group has been profitable for a long time, even today, in real estate and auto ancillary parts. I believe they too behaved in a similar manner when Premier automobiles was collapsing. I really hope Tatas will think and act better than that.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I am horrified!! So the Indian arm (parent arm) of Tata motors is in doldrums, and the Indian management is happy because overall they are making money, it doesn't matter that they are slipping on Indian sales month on month??

Btw: Premier group has been profitable for a long time, even today, in real estate and auto ancillary parts. I believe they too behaved in a similar manner when Premier automobiles was collapsing. I really hope Tatas will think and act better than that.

Maybe by little brother is being professional and not letting on the real story to big brother. Who knows.

I don't know the numbers, but Tata Motors is hardly in the doldrums even in India. Its just that their offshore performance is really stellar. More power to them.

And comparing Tata Motors to Premier is a bit of a stretch. Can you tell me one business metric where they are (were) even on the same playing field?

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Maybe by little brother is being professional and not letting on the real story to big brother. Who knows.

I don't know the numbers, but Tata Motors is hardly in the doldrums even in India. Its just that their offshore performance is really stellar. More power to them.

And comparing Tata Motors to Premier is a bit of a stretch. Can you tell me one business metric where they are (were) even on the same playing field?

Comparing how they went down, is not a stretch by any means. If the management keeps being happy dropping from 30k per month sales in 2012-13 to 10-12000 per month in 2015, because of overseas profits, it wouldn't take long for the company to collapse. Bigger groups have fallen harder. Besides overseas profits are generated by overseas managers, what are the Indian managers doing? basking in the glories? Or is there no system of rewards, recognition and punishment for Indian workers? Hard to believe

[The Observer]

Refreshing to see the Hexa, those who have seen the Aria will feel Aria went to the gym and worked out , had a nose job and a fresh new attitude - so whats wrong in that , to me it looks like a cool make over !!

Yes Tata motors posted some decline this year, concerns exist about their after sales service and long term ownership but lets take a good look - they - and yes TATA - launched the Zest which also won the team BHP car of the year (2015), deserving one.

The Zest & Bolt , to me, is a step ( a much awaited one) in the right direction for Tata Motors PV. No quick results , people are not going to buy the zest with eyes closed, but in time i believe the market will realize the value it offers and will reflect in sales nos, slowly and steadily Tata will gain the image of a trusted and a more reliable passenger car maker.

On similar lines, looking at the Hexa i think this will also be another step in the right direction and again it wont move people with more than a million rupees to throw money and buy a Hexa when there is the XUV , the Innova, the Safari , and of course the Duster and soon the Creta. Hexa's got a fight a real good one, having said that people will now consider Tata's cars with renewed positive perception - of one that feels, looks and rides premium and yet value for money.

Pricing the Hexa right - i am sure they will price it well and that should not be enough - they should support it well with well thought out marketing campaign , ads, positioning , talented sales staff and most importantly - treat their existing customers very well - esp when they go to the service centers

To summarize, seeing Tata's fresh new looks and they way their cars are being designed - slowly and steadily they should improve their market share and overall brand image - good luck Tata !
Pics courtesy Overdrive

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by The Observer

Pricing the Hexa right - i am sure they will price it well and that should not be enough - they should support it well with well thought out marketing campaign , ads, positioning , talented sales staff and most importantly - treat their existing customers very well - esp when they go to the service centers

I think most of the above building blocks are already in place or getting there. Except the one in bold.

I think 2 generations minimum of Indian males grew up watching the Safari reclaim your life ads of the Safari splashing fountains of muddy water and wheeling over the hump. I'm guessing we all know which ad I am talking about.

I cannot think of one other campaign of theirs which has the same kind of recall.

The Mahindra one of their entire lineup of UVs driving through the forest to the mountain top is a similar aspirational recall generator.

Tata needs a new this generation reclaim your life. The Aria Crossover one was too namby pamby uncle-ish soft for my liking.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

So we want a Hexa, with ABS, EBD, all wheel drive, automatic gear box, Harman or some other high end gazillion speaker audio system, touch screen entertainment, automatic climate control, automatic wipers, automatic headlamps, at least 160 bhp and 400 nm torque, with 7 seater seating, a humungous boot and all this at a price of <10 lacs ex showroom, because then 'I' who can afford this, 'may' consider a 'Tata vehicle'
Seriously???? and this coming from 'auto enthusiasts' reading and writing on what may be India's most serious auto forum....

I doubt the last part.

When you have a bunch of people queuing up to comment and go ga-ga over a Renault hatchback based on a couple of official photoshoot pics and an indicative price tag, happy to overlook the complete unavailability of any specifications and it's rumoured tin-box weight, and yet have exacting and downright unreasonable requirements from a home grown brand, that does not indicate intelligence or seriousness in discussion.

To avoid disappointment, avoid any such expectation.

[nijelj]

My Father in law was mentioning to me today, that he saw one of Tata's vehicles passing by Angamaly,Kerala. As per him it looked bigger than an Innova, but more butch. Usually, he is 'meh' when I talk about cars and especially when that of tata.

But, he was impressed and said that that vehicle would sell. I asked him whether he saw a Safari or an Aria, but he said no. I showed him the photos of the Hexa, from this thread and he said that this seemed to be the vehicle. His friends were telling that that vehicle was being taken to thrissur for some show. Bhpians from Thrissur, can you check if this is true?