[rsidd]

This is seriously OT, so keeping it brief.

Originally Posted by imp!

Don't you think you may be generalizing a bit? Sure, there is the law of diminishing returns, but, I am an audiophile and I can tell the difference between low bit rate MP3s, high bit rate MP3s, SACDs, CDs and Vinyls.

I can tell low bitrate MP3s too, but no human being has ever passed a double blind test to distinguish CD from a higher-definition format. The problem with CDs is generally poor mastering. Otherwise it contains more than the human ear can hear. The mathematics of this is from the early 20th century and the empirical evidence (when properly done, ie double-blind) is unequivocal. Good amps and speakers are important. Fancy cables are not. And a bottom-end CD player may have a crappy DAC, but a half-decent player is good enough, and you don't need stable platters and all that other stuff from Marantz. On the other hand, if you are the sort who claims vinyl sounds better than CD, enough said... I like vinyl too but for the general atmosphere of the thing, not the sound quality.

The on-topic part of this is that it may well be true of cars too, at least in some respects (alloy wheels and nitrogen-gas filling come to mind), but I'm not enough of an autophile to go further into it...

[madhav14]

Hello Harbir,

Firstly, very sorry for the issues that you are facing with a 50 lac car. I'm sorry to be the odd man out here, but aren't we forgetting another angle of this entire issue?

I totally accept that the car is facing the reliability issues and undergone major part replacements. But, when it comes to the service part, don't you all think Audi didn't do that worse in Harbir's case? I mean they did their best and have replaced all those parts under warranty at free of cost right?

Coming to the 'EXPENSIVE' part. Which German isn't? For example, one malfunction to the electric seats of BMW will cost u 6 digit bills. Covered under warranty or not is a different issue, but the spares cost is more or less same with every German company.

There are hundreds of Audi A6s on road, and a couple of them have got problems like this. Don't we have complaints from BMW owners about transmission failures in the same forum? (Never heard of Merc's with these kind of severe problems though )

Please note that I'm not praising or supporting Audi guys, or please don't mistake me with 'THIS WON'T HAPPEN TO ME' attitude. Just my point of view on the scenario which is happening currently. I too agree that Volkswagen as a group continues this attitude.

[imp!]

Originally Posted by rsidd

This is seriously OT, so keeping it brief.


I can tell low bitrate MP3s too, but no human being has ever passed a double blind test to distinguish CD from a higher-definition format. The problem with CDs is generally poor mastering. Otherwise it contains more than the human ear can hear. The mathematics of this is from the early 20th century and the empirical evidence (when properly done, ie double-blind) is unequivocal. Good amps and speakers are important. Fancy cables are not. And a bottom-end CD player may have a crappy DAC, but a half-decent player is good enough, and you don't need stable platters and all that other stuff from Marantz. On the other hand, if you are the sort who claims vinyl sounds better than CD, enough said... I like vinyl too but for the general atmosphere of the thing, not the sound quality.

The on-topic part of this is that it may well be true of cars too, at least in some respects (alloy wheels and nitrogen-gas filling come to mind), but I'm not enough of an autophile to go further into it...

Okay, clearly we have very differing views as far as Audio systems are concerned. I will say however, that what you say on terms of unequivocal empirical evidence can be countered by other studies and this discussion can never end. Studies however can not be objective as the dynamic range experienced by each individual is very different. And thus, such studies tend to be subjective and not objective. We can discuss this if you're interested but either on an OT thread or via PM.

On Topic: Alloy wheels reduce weight, allow you to increase or decrease your tire profile and thus completely change the way a car drives. I'm enough of an auto enthusiast to be able to tell the difference. But then I'm also enough of an audiophile to appreciate the things you say are impossible for a human the differentiate between. Perhaps I'm just deluding myself.

[fine69]

Originally Posted by madhav14

I totally accept that the car is facing the reliability issues and undergone major part replacements. But, when it comes to the service part, don't you all think Audi didn't do that worse in Harbir's case? I mean they did their best and have replaced all those parts under warranty at free of cost right?

Replacing a part free of cost isn't doing their best. Instead, it is the very least that they are obligated to do.

See, this is how the Indian consumer has become. We have been starved of our rights to such an extent that when somebody starts servicing a customer the way they are supposed to we think they are obliging us with their kindness.

A manufacturer selling a car which has to wait for 2 months in a workshop for a replacement part is nothing short of criminal. A piece of machinery going bad isn't where the problem is, its the attitude that the customer encounters, thanks to the 'zero is the number of damns I give' after sales team, which creates a bigger mess.

But where does the consumer go, we have no place to go. With limited options, absolutely no concept of customer service and medieval laws, Indian customer is simply at the mercy of the service/product provider. This paragraph is now a cliche on this forum, no point in ranting about this further.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by madhav14

But, when it comes to the service part, don't you all think Audi didn't do that worse in Harbir's case? I mean they did their best and have replaced all those parts under warranty at free of cost right?

Isn't it their duty to replace parts that are defective under warranty at the cost of the company and NOT the customer.

Audi or any manufacture is not doing us a favor by changing parts under warranty but they accept the issue and bear for it.

Audi here hasn't done anything great to be applauded but just their duty.

Anurag.

[Ponkermania]

Originally Posted by madhav14

Hello Harbir,

(Never heard of Merc's with these kind of severe problems though )

I think not! We only have GTO's Merc to look at for these problems, as just one example. That said though, the number of Merc problem seem to be much less than the Audi or BMW problems reported on this forum. Wonder if that's because Mercedes tends to use less problematic (also advanced) technology like DSG? Or if it is because Mercedes sells less cars than equivalent Audis?

That was a bit off-topic, but I'll get on topic now.

My father bought an A4 last year, and, believing that he had bought superior and problem-free German technology, decided to take us on a Goa trip 7 days after he bought the car. Now I'm driving this scary thing (scary because I see massive $ signs whenever anyone comes anywhere near the car) on the highway, when suddenly the little screen in the dashboard throws up a TPMS error, telling me the rear left tyre is low on pressure.

This, on a national highway, in pitch darkness, with absolutely no-one around, at 10 P.M. on a weekday. With my parents happily sleeping in the backseat. You can imagine what's going through my mind.

I desperately look for some sort of help (remember, I can't even speed up) on the roadside, and, as luck would have it, find one sad looking petrol pump on the roadside. I pull in, wake my parents, get yelled at by my dad, because obviously it's my fault, how can something ever go wrong with a German car! Yeah, he doesn't really visit Team-BHP.

I look in the boot, and obviously Audi has seen fit to provide a space-saver. Flashback to showroom conversation with the salesman "Saar, this is a German car, will never get a puncture saar, this tyre is only to reach nearest petrol pump saar". Which makes sense in Germany, where roads are good and damage to tyres are minimal, and you can fix these fancy tyres at any service station. Not so much in rural Maharashtra, where the petrol pump tyrewallah has probably never seen an Audi before, let alone be able to fix a fancy tyre like that.

Since he can't fix the tyre, and I notice it is a slow leak from the sidewall (thank god for tubeless tyres), we keep filling air at petrol pumps and drive very slowly to the next town, which mercifully happened to be only 30 km away, and was Kolhapur.

The next day, after MUCH yelling and screaming at Audi offices, service centres and helplines, we finally get someone to look at the tyre, and he attests that it is a manufacturing defect. But Audi puts their hands up saying, sorry, tyres aren't covered in warranty! But don't worry, Audi will, very graciously, offer a 10% discount on a new tyre, which they will provide at...

please be seated for this...

Rs. 65,000 only!

For ONE tyre! We tried to fight it out, but honestly, we were too shocked and disillusioned to take it further. For now, we've got the tyre sealed with a patch on the inside, and we don't take the car on the highway anymore, but this is how Audi treats it's customers.

I have had Marutis, Hondas, Hyundais and Fords, and I can't imagine any of them treating me like that, even though all those cars put together didn't cost as much as the A4. If Audi wishes to treat its customers like this, then I wish them all the best, because it won't be long before they go the Skoda way.

[Raghav_K]

I'm a noob when it comes to automobiles, so excuse me if I'm missing something.

But is the tyre profile in an a4? Why can't you replace it somewhere else for probably less money? Seems a bit sad, driving such a powerful vehicle with a patched tyre! 😐

[VLOCT]

Originally Posted by Harbir

We have an A6 3.0T. Cost us about 50lacs. Its done 18,000 km and in that time, its had:

1. Airbag module failure
2. HVAC control module failure
3. Catastrophic coolant containment failure stranding the car in a rural area.
4. DSG transmission failure
5. CD player failure.

Each time something goes wrong, Audi turns out not to have the parts in stock and the car gets idled. The last time, when the transmission failed, it sat in the workshop for over 2 months waiting for a transmission to come from Brazil.

Now the CD player has failed. It is unable to eject the CD thats inside. the dealer wants 85,000 rupees to remove the CD AND it will void the warranty. I said if the CD player is unable to eject the CD, that means its a warranty job. No, just the CD is stuck and I have to pay 85,000 rupees and lose my warranty. Or I can continue to drive a 50 lac rupee car with 2 years to go on the warranty with a jammed CD player.

What a piece of crap.

I am going to make sure nobody I know ever buys an Audi. Unreliable junk being backed in India by policies designed to fool customers who were foolish enough to throw 50 lacs in Audi's lap.

Hi Harbir,

So sorry to hear your troubles. But in truth, does not surprise me. I have a bunch of my friends who has owned VW/Audi cars. Not one of them were trouble free and not one of them owns these now. This is here in the US.

I asked my close friend Chris, who is a master mechanic specializing in 911s but does all German cars, about this. His shop. His advice "buy only what is actually made in Germany, period, regardless of whether VW, Audi, BMW or Mercs. At that time, one of the few VWs that was German made available in the US, was the Jetta Wagon. He owns one and guess what, never had a single issue in years. Over the years, I have come to accept his recommendation on German cars as absolutely true.

I myself owned a BWW 740iL for 11 years. The car was made in Germany and only started having issues towards the end of the 11 years. I personally will never recommend a German car to my friends that is not German made/assembled and owned only under full warranty. They're too complex and even the with slightest negligence in manufacturing tolerance, expect big trouble and big expenses.

The issue with Warranty Claims in India, I believe, is essentially an attitude by the dealers of such cars of their clients as, some one who has lot of money and can be convinced to pay. Nothing else but, pure exploitation. For the life of me, I do not understand how the car manufacturers tolerate such dealer attitude. I thank God for the T-BHP forum/community in its role for raising the awareness of such nonsensical attitudes of these dealers.

Hopefully, your travails will end soon and get some quality time with the car. Good luck for happy days ahead, buddy.

[Mpower]

1. Airbag module failure
2. HVAC control module failure
3. Catastrophic coolant containment failure stranding the car in a rural area.
4. DSG transmission failure
5. CD player failure.

I really dont see how a manufacturing plant can influence component failures he talks about(other than maybe #3). Secondly there are several German manuf cars that have also turned out unreliable.

Thirdly all CKD plants are built with the latest and greatest equipment and all that the operators do is push buttons. Audi A6 built in Germany gets its CD player & Airbag module & DSG from the same supplier as the Aurangabad plant in India

[VLOCT]

It very well could be and most probably is that the German standards for acceptance, regardless of the manufacturer, of components and their fitment in the cars are much stricter. I'm just hazarding a guess here, a reasonable one, I think. Also, the reason I believe, most of the high end Beemers - 7 Series, Ms and Mercedes S series are still mostly manufactured in Germany.

One thing I learned after owning a few German automobiles, when they mean service at 15,000 miles, that's exactly what it means.

I've never heard of stuff falling off a German car. That's a first for me.

I know from my friends' experiences with Mexican made Jettas, I wouldn't touch one with a 10 ft long pole. Absolutely horrendous experiences with brand new cars.

[imp!]

Originally Posted by VLOCT

It very well could be and most probably is that the German standards for acceptance, regardless of the manufacturer, of components and their fitment in the cars are much stricter. I'm just hazarding a guess here, a reasonable one, I think. Also, the reason I believe, most of the high end Beemers - 7 Series, Ms and Mercedes S series are still mostly manufactured in Germany.

One thing I learned after owning a few German automobiles, when they mean service at 15,000 miles, that's exactly what it means.


I know from my friends' experiences with Mexican made Jettas, I wouldn't touch one with a 10 ft long pole. Absolutely horrendous experiences with brand new cars.

Hi VLOCT,

As someone who works very closely with procurement engineers, I can tell you that design engineers the world over primarily work with standard tolerances which have little to no bearing on what is required in real world conditions. +- .05 on virtually each and every component seems to be the norm and in many cases causes problems since some components need to be relaxed fits in order to allow for working conditions. Most do not even take material behaviour into account.

The problem with manufacturing in developing countries does not pertain to poor quality of components but rather with internal company politics and management decisions of foreign counterparts to insist on 40% (or other un reasonable figure) savings on cost of components. This in turn leads procurement managers in countries like India, Mexico, Brazil etc. to make poor material and supplier selections. If someone wants quality, they need to be prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. Even developing countries have world class manufacturers who very often are able to provide superior quality to their European competitors. They can not however do so at cheap third world prices. They can do so at 10-20% cheaper than developed countries as cost of raw materials and processing and capital investment remain the same or tend to be higher in developing countries but labor is cheaper.

Automobile manufacturers are extremely arrogant and throw their weight around with their suppliers. Cost based incentives push procurement managers to go on showing savings on components which may seem like a good idea, but it raises the end costs of ownership due to failed components.

Modern Supply Chain dictates that these components will find their way into cars no matter where they are manufactured. Typically cheaper cars face more of these problems, but they exist across the board.

imp

[prancinstallion]

Its a cliche of sorts when the bosses of Audi, BMW, Merc say that 'India is one of our important markets', 'Indians are aspirational' blah blah...yet their CRM is a far cry from what it is in US and Europe.

I'm glad that Team - BHP has rightly served as a platform for Harbir to give Audi a piece of his mind, although Audi urging for a premature expression of 'hunky dory' is in bad taste.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Thirdly all CKD plants are built with the latest and greatest equipment and all that the operators do is push buttons. Audi A6 built in Germany gets its CD player & Airbag module & DSG from the same supplier as the Aurangabad plant in India

Not sure I agree with this.

1. Compare the Indian VW Polo with the European one and the difference in quality is shocking. Heck, when Vid6639 & I saw the (imported) Swift Sport at the 2014 Auto Expo, we were blown away by its quality. To put things in perspective, the difference in finesse was what you would see between a Grand i10 & a WagonR.

2. Even for cars manufactured in the same factory, there are different quality grades, depending on the market it serves. The made-in-India EcoSport meant for exports has far superior quality compared to the one for the local market (this from an expert who has seen it first hand). The export EcoSport also weighs more and has 300 different parts (link).

3. The same OEM supplier will have multiple manufacturing locations across the world. If a car manufacturer tells his supplier to provide the same part at a lower price for a price sensitive market (like India) and with very high standards for premium markets (like Germany), the component supplier will comply (and probably source the different grades from different plants).

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by GTO

Not sure I agree with this.

1. Compare the Indian VW Polo with the European one and the difference in quality is shocking. Heck, when Vid6639 & I saw the (imported) Swift Sport at the 2014 Auto Expo, we were blown away by its quality. To put things in perspective, the difference in finesse was what you would see between a Grand i10 & a WagonR.

GTO, that's a good observation and you are correct in that sense.

But what you are seeing there is deliberate de-contenting to be able to drive price down. Things like using a cheaper seat fabric, simpler HU, leave door handle unpainted, use cheaper finishes, non-HID HLs, delete noise blanket, delete soft-molded dash cover etc.

In fact VW has done the same for the US Jetta (vs Euro) to compete on price with Corolla & Elantra and this drew a lot of flak from the media & loyalists

OTOH, the components in question here are things like engines,transmissions and the like
From my personal experience, reliability is never compromised because it will come back and bite you in warranty costs anyway

[Ponkermania]

Originally Posted by Raghav_K

But is the tyre profile in an a4? Why can't you replace it somewhere else for probably less money? Seems a bit sad, driving such a powerful vehicle with a patched tyre! 😐

Raghav, that's a very logical and sensible suggestion. If only Audi had logical and sensible warranty terms and conditions, then that's exactly what I'd do.

I've asked the service centre if I could change that one tyre to something else, or even change all 4 tyres to something else while keeping the dimensions the same (which I'm sure I could get for about half of what Audi charges for one tyre), but the service advisor told me not to, because that then voids the warranty. Apparently, if you modify the car in any manner at all, the warranty will be void for related components, which in the case would be the wheels, suspension, TPMS, and maybe even the drivetrain.

I really don't want to take the risk with the warranty, given how unreliable these German cars are proving to be in India. I wouldn't have thought twice with the Japs or the Koreans, but then again, I probably wouldn't be in this situation with a Jap or Korean car.

I'm eagerly waiting for the day the high-end Japs (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc.) come in and clobber the Germans.