[GetLife]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

@ Shiv_1984,

I read somewhere that foreign manufacturers have to pay tax for goods they produce and sell in India, whereas the same goods if exported they don't have to pay any tax. So Ford makes more profit selling Ecosport abroad than in India. Actually it's a win-win game for Ford at least in shorter context, the car is making profit elsewhere and in India the brand is being talked about for creating a product that is too good and elusive.

True, this information of "making loss", should not be taken seriously. They must have availed some duty/tax concession for exports and making the profits elsewhere outside India. Their investment in the plants and other things in India is only part of a bigger game plan. Whether they want to create a successful brand/product in India is to be seen. Atleast Ford is in this league I can see, not sure of GM.

[su1978]

If we look closely, what does GM offer?

1) Spark(Matiz re-christened Daewoo offering).
2) Sail U-Va. Another market dud right from the start and discontinued
3) Aveo. High cost and low mileage. Discontinued
4) A capable Optra suffering from poor brand image of the parent company.
5) Tavera- the only success story which gets entangled in pollution norms.
6) Captiva- Where did I last see it??
7) Sail NB/HB- New offerings but nothing fresh about them.


Nothing sells like word of mouth publicity. Ford should capitalise on that and can do well.

+1 to whatever you have mentioned here is
1. Spark-it has got the best space and i still consider it one of the best value for money proposition. GM should have marketed it in a much better way rather than some very disproportioned advertisements which general public could not relate to across some non-existent TV channels. Performance is no-where compared to normal 1L segment engines
2. Sail U/Va-The car did have some amazing space in its segment although the plain jane, simple, non-exciting looks did it in. Add to that the non-existent marketing. Performance is again not at all good
3. Aveo-One of the most beautiful looking sedans available in the price range. The lacklusture engine with some very bad fuel efficiency and Bad marketing again did it in
4. Optra-Cannot comment about it as have not heard anyone buying this car
5.Tavera-Fit only for taxi segment. Good marketing would have promoted this car. The engine does not perform as a 2.5L engine should do
6. Captiva/Cruze-Only these two cars gives we indians some glimpse of What american car giant is actually capable of. But again insufficient marketing
7.Sail NB/HB-Are these cars after all or just chinese toys. No need of marketing. these will never sell at all.

As per me, most of GM cars suffer from poor marketing and bad performance. At least GM should have given to the customers what competetion provides.

As if these were not enough, the cost of spares was always on the higher side. One of the very good initiatives launched by late Mr Slym to negate the issue was the 3 years no maintenance scheme. But GM goofed-up big time. They could not encash the opportunity. But one more thing to be considered is that in india we do not buy a car for 3 years. We do it as an investement and keep it for ages.

As if all these were not enough, the lacklusture dealerships with a very very non-professional approach and non-trained staff is driving nails into the coffin of GM. On one of my recent visits to one of newly opened dealerships in South Delhi, the service advisor was not even able to open the job-card. Forget servicing the car and understanding the problems

Coming to FORD
they manufacture good driver oriented cars but forget about the Indian customers. Not sure about their future growth path

Honda
If we see the wonderful car sales analysis for the month of Feb 2014 posted on this site, we will find that Honda has already walked over Hyundai with their city. Verna doing 3.5k units a month and City already crossing 7k. With the launch of mobilio and Jazz hatchback, it would be no surprise if we see them becoming no.2 in Indian car industry, if they price their vehicles sanely. Now they have a car in every segment. The lack of a diesel motor has been the missing weapon in their armoury. Brand proposition as we all know is a determining factor

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by octane_100

100% agree. Can't jump to conclusion unless you read the fineprint. They might be repatriating out of operating profits to their parent companies as royalties and similar heads and reporting a net loss here to avoid taxes.

As a matter of fact, Suzuki's royalty payment from MSIL is more than its profits from entire Japanese operations and almost half the profits of MSIL!!

I agree with this too. All these companies are Privately owned subsidiaries, and as long as their parents are happy, It shouldn't matter. Look no further than Ford starving the Indian market to feed Demand abroad. I have a feeling that these losses are only on paper.

[blacksport]

Indian car passenger market is Maruti, Hyundai and a bunch of also-rans. With 30+ years behind them, Maruti currently has a virtual monopoly. The only real success story here is Hyundai who moved in with the rest of the lot by the end of the last millennium and made a name for themselves.

Why Maruti sells so many are because they moulded our tastes during the 80s and 90s where they had an absolute monopoly. They changed what we expected from cars, and even now want we expect from our cars is another Maruti.

Even the guy who goes behind the H/T/F/C brands, wants another Maruti with a H/T badge. He wants the same inexpensive, fuel efficient, easy to maintain Maruti with the H/T/F/C badge. To an extend the H and the T are able to measure up to the expectations of the customers is because they all have the J DNA in them.

People buying a Fiat or a Ford and expect a Maruti kind of car obviously would be disappointed. This is not to say that these cars (not brands) do not have their fan following. They too have, but the numbers are too low that they have to content themselves with the tag of also-rans.

Meanwhile Hyundai still continues to amaze us.

[a4anurag]

Losses from GM is a known issue as their whole line-up is either under scanner of the government for violations or under some kind of recall. Such things spread faster than fire and have a net negative effect on that brand and the cars. Once the issues are sorted out people will still be sceptical to go and buy one for themselves. GM, I guess their pack-up time has come from Indian market or some kind of miracle should help them.

Ford and Honda are keeping me in surprise. I can to some extent expect losses for Honda as the i-DTEC was recently launched and is yet to capture some ground as they are struggling to ramp up their production capacities to lower the waiting periods. People tend to get irritated with the waiting periods and jump off to the competition. Same problem lies with Ford for the EcoSport that is exported more than for we Indians. Does Ford get any benefit for exporting more cars than selling it in India? I mean not the extra money but something like tax saving or cut in import duties for materials etc? Does any such thing exist?

Ford needs better line-up now to keep the market ringing. Surviving on the EcoSport will be difficult in a few years time.

Hyundai and Maruti are enjoying the market now and have nothing much to worry and panic. Waiting to see how the market responds to the Xccent, Ciaz, S-Cross.

Anurag.

[TheBigH]

Here's my 2 cents:

Maruti: This continues to survive and hold monopoly since the brand inspires "Indianism" and a lot of trust which comes from the fact that they have the vastest service coverage and network and even a hole in the wall mechanic can repair a Maruti. Also, their parts are cheaper and are easily available in the after market for reasonable prices.

Ford: I have been a loyal Ford customer for ~ 10 years and their customer service (in my experience) is second to none. Their cars have the fun to drive factor and the sturdiness which is lacking in other brands. I owned a Ford Ikon and now own a Ford Fiesta (now rebadged as the Classic) and both were / are great cars to drive. My Fiesta still brings that grin to my face when I unleash the fury in her and she can wallop a car a segment or two up the line in terms of pure speed and thrill as well. The Ecosport was on my shortlist, but the huge wait list made me look elsewhere. *Shrugs* They had a killer on their hand, but they will lose the advantage in an year or so if production capacity fails to improve. Also, surprisingly, their cars don't command a good resale value. I was offered a lac for my October 2009 Ford Fiesta 1.6 SXi in top condition which left me shaking my head in disgust.

GM: I have personally never been a fan and the only car which I like in their stable is the Cruze (especially the one on offer now), just for the sheer joy of driving which it offers. Their dealer network in NCR is fairly stand offish and they seem to think the world of themselves (which seems to bear testimony through a losing customer base)

Hyundai: They took the world by storm with their fluidic theme and I am eagerly awaiting the onset of April to get my 2014 Verna CRDI. They seem to hold monopoly over the market at least in India even under the face of stiff competition from the H Badge. They might lose the segment leader tag to the City in the short term, but the long term may tell another story.

Honda: With no disrespect to the Honda owners, I find the Honda dealerships to be far too snooty for my liking (at least in NCR). Their new Honda City did attract me initially, but the test drive between the Honda City Diesel and the Verna 2014 Diesel clearly proved that the Verna has a better oil burner under the hood. Their resale value is albeit great. I do have my doubts as to whether Honda will outsell Hyundai Verna in the long term and I expect that Honda will come up with an update to the Diesel City in a span of two years at maximum. Time will tell.

The losses typically seem more on paper except for GM which has been in the red for quite some time now. Again, time will tell!

[charanreddy]

Having owned a Beat for the past 15 months, I can vouch for its build quality and having driven Figo / i10 etc. it more than holds its own as a VFM package including Costs associated with owning and maintenance. Other than this and Tavera, which had its share of problems with the regulator, I find GM India's line up to be lack lustre. They are not even willing to showcase their expertise by bringing in the CBU route the likes of Camaro or the Corvette just to create brand awareness and buzz. I am sure there will be a lot of young folks who will be attracted to the showrooms with a brand that boasts of these vehicles they have grown up admiring. Their current products (SAIL, SAIL UVA, ENJOY) in my opinion are really unexciting and boring. And the negativity in the showrooms with the poor product line up and low sales really shows. GM needs to shake things up pretty drastically and pretty fast if they have to survive in India. Its not an easy market to crack.

[deetjohn]

Incentive cut at Ford plant leaves workers puzzled

Workers have expressed their unhappiness through silent protests by not utilizing the company’s facilities such as transportation. They are upset over a 10 per cent cut in incentives .

However, there has not been any fall in production of vehicles at the Chennai plant, even though the domestic market is sluggish, Ford has been exporting its models, particularly the compact SUV EcoSport in big numbers, to take advantage of currency depreciation.

Ford' current state is really puzzling. They really can move all the EcoSport that they make either in the domestic or the export market and use the existing capacity to the maximum. Or is there a shortage from suppliers? But the thread on the face-lifted Fiesta says, the launch is imminent. And EcoSport and Fiesta share many components. Very confusing indeed!

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

Ford' current state is really puzzling. They really can move all the EcoSport that they make either in the domestic or the export market and use the existing capacity to the maximum. Or is there a shortage from suppliers? But the thread on the face-lifted Fiesta says, the launch is imminent. And EcoSport and Fiesta share many components. Very confusing indeed!

I don't think there is could be a short supply from the suppliers end as the EcoSport is being exported happily to glory with low preference given to the Indian customer. I guess if 10 EcoSport's are manufactured 7 are exported and 3 are sold here so the demand v/s supply gets a hit where the Indian customer is waiting and waiting.

Ford would have given the suppliers time to get the stocks piled up and up-scale the production.

Anurag.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I don't think there is could be a short supply from the suppliers end as the EcoSport is being exported happily to glory with low preference given to the Indian customer.

What I meant was are suppliers the limiting factor to increase production from the current level to support both domestic and export numbers?

[Hatari]

Ford management needed a serious shakeup.
Pricing the new Fiesta at what they did defied all logic.

[prmd_cochin]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Ford launches the Ecosport in India but doesn't want to give it to Indians.

Chevrolet thinks India is China and launches all the Chinese cars such as Enjoy, Sail, etc in India.

I sense a glimmer of hope for Ford seeing their future cars in New Endeavor, Figo sedan, etc. But for Chevrolet, with the way they have perceived India at the moment, I don't think they are going to recover in near future.

Rightly said about Chevrolet they are nothing but an assembly unit for Chineese imports.

Ford even if they manage to export wouldn't that help in reducing the losses.

Originally Posted by Hatari

Ford management needed a serious shakeup.
Pricing the new Fiesta at what they did defied all logic.

They launched Ecosport after that on the right pricing band. Its for the first time since they launched in India do they have 2 models that sells decent numbers in Figo and Ecosport.

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Rightly said about Chevrolet they are nothing but an assembly unit for Chineese imports.

Ford even if they manage to export wouldn't that help in reducing the losses.

The problem with Ford is only Ecosport is making money for them. Figo is dying down and rest all cars such as New Fiesta, Classic, Endeavor are selling nothing and hence the losses.

Also remember, Figo was reportedly sold at wafer thin margins.

But the good news is Ford is learning and that is shown in the way they priced the Ecosport at launch. They will have the momentum to recover to profits with some promising products in the pipeline.

[prmd_cochin]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

The problem with Ford is only Ecosport is making money for them. Figo is dying down and rest all cars such as New Fiesta, Classic, Endeavor are selling nothing and hence the losses.

Also remember, Figo was reportedly sold at wafer thin margins.

But the good news is Ford is learning and that is shown in the way they priced the Ecosport at launch. They will have the momentum to recover to profits with some promising products in the pipeline.

They have the new Figo and Endeavour readied for launch. Endy might not sell in numbers but new Figo can be a bread earner for the company.

[carheadbanger]

I believe, GM is struggling at international levels as well. Reports suggests that the brand was in the red since 2005 and the accumulated losses are now close to $50 billion. Mary Barra's first priority would be to revive the brands image in already established markets like US and Europe. This move would certainly limit the cash flow to markets like India and make situations more worse in our country for them.