[::CMS::]

Its laughable when seeing people's comments and the wild interpretations based on their limited knowledge esp those who are not affected. They will praise the RTO to heaven until unless they feel the heat when the other state implements a similar rule and they got victimised or vehicle got seized. Till then they enjoy throwing stones behind the fence. On reading those interpretations we cannot blame if somebody started thinking whether the Judge doesnt have any idea about the laws, only the state has. Its true that the state prosecuter got pissed infront of the Judge on hearing his observations \ questions.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by ::CMS::

Its true that the state prosecuter got pissed infront of the Judge on hearing his observations \ questions.

Can some one clarify the questions I have raised? . And if possible link of the complete order (which has the actual verdict, or the statement made by the judge). It would benefit every one out here (RTO fans and the others ).

On reading those interpretations we cannot blame if somebody started thinking whether the Judge doesnt have any idea about the laws, only the state has.

As the only batsman batting for the RTO at the moment, I am open for corrections. So please let us all know what were the points based on which the judge found laws to be violated, or the state over-stepped its mandate. All I have seen is the stay order. The media also has not highlighted any major legal points, and unfortunately I don't see it here as well.

Came back to say..
Car registered out of state? Breathe easy, for now
Speaking to Bangalore Mirror, the transport commissioner Rame Gowda said, "Earlier, the HC had given a stay of eight weeks. As the case is still going on we have completely stopped the drives collecting fines from out-of-state registered vehicles that ply on city roads for more than 30 days. We are waiting for the final verdict."
.....
The court observed, "Once the tax is paid in a particular place, it shall be treated as sufficient for the purpose of plying the vehicle throughout the country."
.....
The High Court has directed to the petitioner to make the Central government a respondent party in the case.

[::CMS::]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

Can some one clarify the questions I have raised? . And if possible link of the complete order (which has the actual verdict, or the statement made by the judge). It would benefit every one out here (RTO fans and the others ).


As the only batsman batting for the RTO at the moment, I am open for corrections. So please let us all know what were the points based on which the judge found laws to be violated, or the state over-stepped its mandate. All I have seen is the stay order. The media also has not highlighted any major legal points, and unfortunately I don't see it here as well.

If you want to get hold of a copy of the full judgement, why dont you contact waseem or probably it will be available online from their website based on the case / file number.

[wildsdi5530]

The govt. is our elected representative. The decisions that they make are our decisions. It may hurt a few people but that's the story everywhere. Millions of Jews were killed when Germany wanted a cleansing. Thousands of Americans died in Vietnam. Even in peace times, policy change can destroy a lot f people. After all, the RTO is only targeting the super rich ie the car owners. We should be happy that our govt. is not keeping everything we earn like communist countries. If the RTO decides to retax KA vehicles, would we have protested so much? Does anyone notice that excise on fuel was hiked by the govt. 4 times in the last 6 months?

[atnyia]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

But the existing legal frame work allows state wise tax collection. These are all man made laws. With enough and more lobbying we all can change it.

As far as lobbying is concerned, it is a privilege of mostly majority/politically connected. Migrants IT or other folks who are facing this tyranny are a minority in their own state as well as in Karnataka.

This is a stupid law and enforcement is maniacal. On ground, due to logistics and bureaucracy; people who had no intention of robbing KA RTO are paying up twice and that should not be happening. It is causing major inconvenience to migrants and that's wasn't the intention of the law. That's why it must be repealed/reorganized. Just because it's a law, it doesn't mean that it is not stupid.

There are still serious regional undertones in the argument of Sachin that other state's RTOs aren't KA state's issues. Migrants should not be treated as immigrants. Getting refund is an issue with all RTOs and the other states aren't other countries.

[::CMS::]

Originally Posted by wildsdi5530

If the RTO decides to retax KA vehicles, would we have protested so much?

This is what I have mentioned, the people will not bother until unless it affects them, till then they will preach others as its the law, everyone has to follow..

[silversteed]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

Has it been proved that Karnataka State cannot make such an order?

The hon. judge had made an observation in that effect.

It just says that the person would get a notice served, and given an chance to explain. After that the tax dues are collected. Sec 11 and Sec 11A states who can stop, detain (and even sell) motor vehicles and check for tax dues.

Could you please show an instance where this procedure has been duly followed?

...other states too can try these tactics.

Yea, right! Divide the country on these lines? Great!

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Can you please share a PDF/JPG/Link of the above complete order? Much appreciated.

Santosh-ji, I guess it's been uploaded in the Files section of the FB group.

[glenmz]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

As the only batsman batting for the RTO at the moment, I am open for corrections. So please let us all know what were the points based on which the judge found laws to be violated, or the state over-stepped its mandate. All I have seen is the stay order. The media also has not highlighted any major legal points, and unfortunately I don't see it here as well.
[/i]

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/banga...w/46071307.cms

Observations by the judge, if you haven't noticed.

The court observed that the state government did not follow the necessary rules and the President's assent was not sought before implementing the rules.

The judge observed that the decision taken by the state government is contrary to the parent Act (Motor Vehicles Act) and President's consent should have been taken. During the course of hearing, the judge said that transport department in the state seems to be behind money and has continually failed to address the grievances of motorists riding on pathetic roads in the state. "Travel once between Bengaluru and Mysuru and you will realise how bad the condition of the roads is. The department does nothing to keep the roads in good condition but is interested in collecting tax."

[venkyhere]

^^ @sachinpk

I appreciate your perspective (and the maturity shown by you to present clean arguments purely from a legal perspective, as it should be) in taking the side of the maligned party (a.k.a KA RTO) - as you correctly noted, the "tax collection" was mandated by an amendment to a law passed in the state legislature - this was no "hafta vasool" that happens in vegetable markets (although the behavior of the personnel implementing the collection was often worse).

But wait for a moment and think about the "moral" angle to the whole story. A normal, salaried citizen, after many years of slogging decides :

" as it is, public transport by bus, is either literally squeezing the hell out of me, or offering A/C comfort at exhorbitant rates (please note BMTC), suburban train/metro is a joke except in very few cities, autos are extortion rackets run by goondas (the auto driver is the most innocent party in the whole chain) , so even if I am paying INCOME TAX (which btw I am happy to pay UPFRONT, through TDS, even though other 'smart' business people find ways to evade billions) which is supposed to pay for basic public transport (and many other things supposed to build this nation) at reasonable comfort, let me forgive the "inefficiences" in the govt machinery, and take the liberty to be a little selfish (I think I am not living in USSR, so may be its ok to be a little bit) for the sake of myself and my family, and decide to spend my savings in buying a car. Even though I am buying a car for 100 rupees from the manufacturer, I don't mind paying 100 more to the central govt, 15 more to the state govt. So in total, for a car that would set me back by 100, I am shelling out 215. Fine. But wait, if I have to put 10 rupees petrol in it, I have to pay 13 rupees. Fine. But wait, if I have to drive between two cities, I have to pay for road toll. Why ? the poor central govt (NHAI, CPWD) and even poorer state govt (PWD) are not "equipped" to build good quality roads. Fine. But wait, I have to pay some fine to the traffic cop who has stopped me for not having remembered to carry a "pollution certificate" on a euro IV fuel consuming modern engine in my car which is just past 6 months old - while I am paying this fine, I am fortunate enough to inhale the medicinal fumes containing sulphur dioxide, nitric oxide & liberal doses of carbon monoxide that just came out of the tail pipes of 3 public transport buses, 12 autos and 5 water tanker mini lorries (which btw, require 0 documents and are authorized to be driven by teenage cocaine addicts without licence). Fine.

But wait, KA RTO has amended the law and has decided that I must again pay 15 rupees to ply on KA roads. But I just came into KA last week to visit my relatives. Nothing doing - just pay the full amount, or hand over your licence, PAN cards, car keys - but sir, here are the toll receipts - TRRRR CHICK CHICK, into the dustbin - what toll receipts ? when did you produce them ? - oh my god - here goes the rest of my bank balance - may be I have to borrow some money for this ....... Fine.

But wait, atleast there is a forum called T-BHP where I am a member and can rant a little bit about my misfortune - there may be other guys who have suffered like me, we will share our sorrow and feel a little bit better. But wait, my posts are not "legally correct". OH MY GOD "

[carZest]

One of the major reasons for this were many KL folks who, despite being well settled in Bangalore, decided to get their vehicles delivered and registered in KL. As I had mentioned in a previous post, a bank around the Kundalahalli area has financed many such vehicles. In any case, with the way that state's finances are going thanks to the partial liquor prohibition, I don't think this be a concern going forward.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by ::CMS::

If you want to get hold of a copy of the full judgement, why dont you contact waseem or probably it will be available online from their website based on the case / file number.

Thanks. I figured that out . Writ Petition WP 594/2015, and the latest status is "AT REQUEST OF ADDL ADVOCATE GENERAL THREE WEEKS TIME TO FILE STATEMENT OF OBJS". The next date of hearing is yet to be decided. The state gets three weeks to respond. Other than that I could not find any "Orders" or "Judgements" in the Karnataka High Court web site.

Originally Posted by wildsdi5530

If the RTO decides to retax KA vehicles, would we have protested so much? Does anyone notice that excise on fuel was hiked by the govt. 4 times in the last 6 months?

The excise cess on fuel has not led to many protests in Bengaluru. Karnataka people have already paid LTT, so why should there be a question of retaxing. Yes, if the tax rates gets doubled, there would be protests. But right now an average Joe of Karnataka is in the least way bothered. He has a vehicle in Karnataka and have paid the tax. He is not going to be troubled. He may make occasional visit to Kerala, Goa or TN. They don't have such provisions to collect LTT. Karnataka state is just ensuring that all folks who stay in the state pay the LTT. Migrants naturally would be effected.

Originally Posted by atniya

This is a stupid law and enforcement is maniacal. On ground, due to logistics and bureaucracy; people who had no intention of robbing KA RTO are paying up twice and that should not be happening. It is causing major inconvenience to migrants and that's wasn't the intention of the law. That's why it must be repealed/reorganized.

As per existing legal frame work, Motor Vehicle Taxation is a state subject. So question of robbing KA RTO does not arise. My gut feeling is that Karnataka government realised that in big cities like Bengaluru there are 1000s of private vehicles which run on a daily basis without paying any form of road tax. They amended the laws in such away that these people are forced to pay up. The intention of the amendment seems to be increasing the state's tax revenue (which is obvious).

There are still serious regional undertones in the argument of Sachin that other state's RTOs aren't KA state's issues. Migrants should not be treated as immigrants. Getting refund is an issue with all RTOs and the other states aren't other countries.

RTOs are state specific organisations, just like the police force, fire brigade etc. Do you think Karnataka is really bothered on how Kerala Police behaves, in their own state? Each state has lots of privileges which it can exercise. Migrants have always been welcomed here. I myself am a migrant. But can migrants be given all sorts of benefits (no tax collected etc.), just because the migrant comes from a state with a sloppy law enforcement or RTO mechanism? Do we get any breaks in income taxes etc.?

Originally Posted by silversteed

The hon. judge had made an observation in that effect.

I checked up the internet for the order related to WP 594/2015. Other than adjournment, I could not find any other remarks in that order. Please note that judges to make some oral statements, which may be critical of the organisations, governments etc. But that is not the final judgement or the order. Those things are always written down, and formally recorded.

Could you please show an instance where this procedure has been duly followed?

I have seen one major drive which happened near my office parking lot. Four squads in action. In no case were people forced to pay upfront. The RTO collected all evidence (including parking stickers etc.), seized the vehicles and took them to a BMTC bus depot near by for holding the vehicles. The owners had all ways and means to challenge the seizure by providing proof (that the vehicle was not used in Bangalore for more than a month). This is what I saw, and off course things have been different for others. Even the existing law has clearly defined the provisions for appeals (it has to be heard in a higher court than that of a 1st Class Judicial Magistrate). But no one seems to have tried those options.

Originally Posted by glenmz

"Travel once between Bengaluru and Mysuru and you will realise how bad the condition of the roads is. The department does nothing to keep the roads in good condition but is interested in collecting tax."

That explains. This is an observation made by the judge. I.e a frank remark on the state of the roads. But is it there in the order that RTO (or PWD) has to fix the roads between Bengaluru and Mysuru and make it more comfortable? I don't think so. There is a difference between an observation made by the judge, and the formal written judgement. Based on this observation, there is no mandate for the RTO or State Government to fix the roads.

Originally Posted by venkyhere

I appreciate your perspective (and the maturity shown by you to present clean arguments purely from a legal perspective, as it should be) in taking the side of the maligned party (a.k.a KA RTO)

Thanks. To be quite frank, I don't have any thing to lose here, because all my vehicles are registered in KA. Only once the RTO of KL (my mother state) caught me, and they left me after I showed the toll receipts. KL is also interested in revenue collection through fines and taxation. Out of my own curiosity, I try to learn the legal aspects, and the criminal and judicial process in India. But one thing for sure, "ignorance of law is never an excuse", so it is upto all of us to know the exact nature of rules and laws which govern our day to day life. Only then perhaps people would be forced to ask for corrections. I appreciate the initiative of the folks who approached the courts, in a case where they felt they are being victimised by KA RTO. Now let us see how KA RTO defends themselves.

[amitk26]

@SachinPK and all those in support and all other who are opposing there can be a common logical win win solution.
Let's pressurize state governments and centre to implement GST and extend the same principle(s) and infrastructure to road taxes as well.

Uniform taxation and distribution to the states is only clean civilized way out of this mess and is a practice followed in developed world. USA has 50 states but did anyone find any nakas and hundreds of trucks parked there ?

GST is supposed to increase the GDP growth by 2% mainly by eliminating loot points aka tax checkpoints and eliminating bribes.

May be RTO taxation unification can add another 0.1 % ( just a number out of my head) by smoothing transportation across the country , eliminating productivity loss and giving states where the vehicles actually play their fare share.

Seeing the resistance vested interests are putting in GST implementation this is not going to be easy however anything which eliminates barriers, reduce travel time , bribes and litigation should be in interest of general public.

[SaNdY_AR]

Folks

Apologize if this point has been made earlier and if yes, you guys can ignore my posts.

The point of contention here is, if a owner has been using his non registered KA vehicle here for a very long period of time, say around a year or so, is he not violating the RTO rule and trying to fool the government? Is it not what the RTO is against? I guess this rule is there in all the states. I understand that there it is a pain to get the refund of LTT once you move back to your state, but is it not something that we must do as the rule of the land mandates that?

There has been many instances quoted here and let me share one. Around 11 years back, Me and my roomie decided to book Zen almost the same month. The difference is that I decided to get it from KA and my friend from another state and drive the vehicle back to KA. Obviously the tax that I had to pay was more and my friend has to pay ~10K lesser if my memory serves me correct. Needless to say I was never stopped by RTO, however my friend was flagged a couple of time( But had managed to get out of the situation). The point here is I could have also gone through the same route and saved a couple of thousands. Is it not one of the things that is happening here? I am fully aware that there would be states which would have a higher RT bracket than KA, but is it not that a certain section of people are misusing the same.
Just a view, I might be wrong. No offence to any fellow country men.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Uniform taxation and distribution to the states is only clean civilized way out of this mess and is a practice followed in developed world. USA has 50 states but did anyone find any nakas and hundreds of trucks parked there ?

Agreed. The laws needs to get modified according the needs of the time. But unless that gets done, existing laws would have to get implemented. One thing in India, states don't have many provisions to generate their own money (which they can spend). Land registrations, vehicles registrations, selling liquor etc. are major source of revenues. So in the present condition states would not fore-go this. In India, politics also is a major hurdle. If a state government feels that the central government would not play sport and deny them funds, the state would not prefer any "revenue sharing" mechanism. Even if the Central Govt. decides to have a uniform LTT all across India, the states would start fighting on the basis of revenue sharing. Some states are small, and some are huge. So a equitable division is not possible. It has to be based on very many parameters. So the formula for LTT sharing needs to be work out.

Originally Posted by SaNdY_AR

The point of contention here is, if a owner has been using his non registered KA vehicle here for a very long period of time, say around a year or so, is he not violating the RTO rule and trying to fool the government? Is it not what the RTO is against?

Karnataka government may have the ulterior motive of generating extra revenue. But unless it is blatantly illegal, they cannot be denied that chance. The state would have clearly analysed the number of non-KA vehicles plying all across the major cities - especially Bengaluru. Now what is a better way than to amend the law, reduce the time period, and go an over-drive to make people pay LTT. The owners of non-KA vehicles are not that saints either. If such a drive was NOT there, the number of people who would have got vehicles re-registered and paid LTT would be very minor. Don't know if any one would even bother doing that. Even the requests of [i]"give us provision for making yearly payments, we would pay on time" - came AFTER the RTO launched its drive. Until then no such requests were made, as every one just assumed that they can dodge the tax payment.

I guess this rule is there in all the states.

Yes, the states have the rights to decide the tax amount and how it can be collected. For example, Kerala can also do the same thing with KA vehicles. But again there lies a catch. Many of the KA registered vehicles which run in KL, would be of folks who are Malayalis but working in Karnataka . So the end result is the same, it is the Malayalis would would lose money any ways. From Karnataka side may be a few Sabari Mala pilgrims or tourists would face the music.

[Vigkey]

I have been following this thread diligently since Day 1. I am not here to bash the RTO here but neither do I support this rule.

In my opinion, the rule has to be made in such a way that it clearly distinguishes the residents and migrants. It has to target the residents who evade taxes purposefully rather than migrants who brought their vehicles from other states. If I understand currently, the current drive (or the one that happened till a couple of months ago) does exactly the opposite.

Karnataka Residents who evade tax: They are the people who have been living in Karnataka for a lot of years, own properties here and will probably live here for years to come. But while buying cars, they buy from Pondicherry or other nearby states as the taxes are lesser there. Here they are clearly Karnataka residents who purposefully buy cars to evade taxes.

Migrants whose aim is not to evade tax: They are people who have moved into Karnataka for career interests. They might have worked in different states before and probably will move to different states in the future as well. While coming from the previous state, the brought their vehicle along and probably will take it along to their future destinations as well. Their aim is not to evade taxes.

Why should the migrants not be penalized? They have paid the taxes in the state of purchase but their frequent shifting means they take their vehicles to different states. It will practically be impossible for them to buy vehicles in each state when they move. Also it is not practical for them to keep changing the registration and pay the taxes every time they move. Why not practical? RTOs in every state (including Karnataka) are very eager in collecting taxes but are lethargic when it comes to refund.

I am one of the migrants. I purchased by bike in Kerala when I was in my pre-final year. I used it for 2 years in Kerala and then took it along when moved to Hyderabad. I used it there for 2.5 years. The bike moved to Kerala again and was used there for 1.5 years (when I was in US). Then I took a transfer to Bangalore and have been using here for 2.5 years. I will soon be moving to Tamil Nadu. If I were to follow the rules exactly, I should have changed the registration 4 times and paid the tax 4 times. It is anyone's guess on how many times I would have got a refund. I am not alone in this, there are 1000s like me. Now, do you think my intention was to evade taxes? Should I be penalized just because I chose to shift between states and chose to use the same vehicle?

Why do I think the current rule and implementation is not fair and should be pronounced illegal? Here, we have a case where the RTO asks you to pay the tax without changing the registration when it is clearly evident that getting an NOC and cancellation /change of registration is mandatory to get a refund. The 30 day deadline itself is shows the vested interest of those who made the rule. Isn't this a planned move to from the RTO to make massive checks and then detain the vehicle and force the owners to pay Tax ASAP without changing the registration. Now, if I need to move out of state, how will I get back the tax paid? NO WAYS. Karnataka Government keeps my money even when I am no longer using its roads. Isn't this illegal too?

The lawmakers should target residents rather than migrants is my opinion. Even if they are to target the migrants also. They should be doing a fair implementation of the rule, give the vehicle at least 6 months as a deadline. Once the vehicle is caught, give the first notice and make sure the vehicle gets an NOC and gets re-registered in KA by paying the tax within 30 or 60 days. Shouldn't this be the correct way to implement the rule. If this was done, do you think any owner would have objected or moved the court?

In addition, I feel there should be a number of years limitation while implementing this rule. Say, if the vehicle that was caught is less than 3 years old and if RTO can establish that the owner is residing in Karnataka for over 6 months, then the vehicle can be taxed. (I am simply throwing numbers here. The lawmakers can put in logical figures here).

Sorry for the very long post. But I wanted to make my point clear and unbiased. Thanks!!!