Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 Yup I'm well aware of this and if you see, it cements my point that Kia and Hyundai are being very greedy with the pricing of their Turbo Petrol offering. They are intentionally pushing the diesel down buyers throats by pricing the turbo petrol higher and having more options to choose in Diesel vs petrol.
If you remember when the Ecosport was launched the price difference between the EcoBoost and TDCi was 70K. Back then we felt that difference was not enough as the difference in fuel costs was huge and Ecoboost was not great in mileage. If you see in your table, Mahindra is still keeping the ~60K price delta but now the diesel fuel is much more expensive and the BS6 maintenance we don't know. Mahindra also reduced prices overall of XUV across the board. Also remember diesel BS6 FE is lesser than BS4 so the advantage is even lesser. Tata has a huge difference with the turbo petrol and diesel which makes the petrol a good vfm pick.
The Hyundai Venue is where it gets interesting. The 55K difference between the 1.0L GDI vs the 1.5L CRDI is enough to tilt the sales in favour of the Turbo petrol. 44% from turbo petrol, 30% from Diesel and 26% from 1.2L NA petrol. And the majority of sales would have been during BS4. Which means with the new 1.5L BS6 diesel I am expecting the ratio to shift even further in favour of 1.0L T-GDI. |
A much simpler way to look at it - small cars segments are increasing leaning towards petrol power, whereas diesels are preferred higher up.
If you want more data for analysis - bring in Audi as well. They have been doing numbers similar to Volvo and Jaguar ever since the move to the petrol-only portfolio. Even VW's 'diesel-exit' strategy announced clearly mentions they are watching the space for bigger cars.
"Intentionally pushing the diesel down buyers throats"? Assumes that buyers of diesel don't know any better! As recent as 2019 -
42% of the forum favoured diesel as against 55% for petrol. That percentage should have reduced now, but I wouldn't assume zero buyers for diesels especially in the higher segments. If the sales figures are hard to believe - may be time for a fresh BS6 poll!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 Nope I was never looking at NA vs Diesel. Was comparing 1.0L TSI with the old 1.5L TDI. |
One of the exceptional cases - isn't it? VW has truly priced the 1.0 TSI well. Hope the same amount of localization is carried forward to the 1.5 TSI as well. Else not going to help the Taigun / Vision IN much, except for the lower variants.
PS: Thanks for the correction on Ameo TSI DSG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 These excel sheets are nice on paper but not in real. Reasons:
1. You have taken Delhi current prices but for more than a month Diesel was Rs.80+ in Delhi. The target from the govt has always been to discourage diesel as private vehicles so the prices will always be dynamic and in the future you don't know what will happen.
2. Delhi is totally anti diesel with the NGT regulations. Nobody buys diesel there with 10 year ban which means if you buy a car and keep it for 8 years nobody is going to buy from you.
3. In Bangalore the price difference between petrol and diesel is less than Rs.5 right now and will only keep reducing.
4. Your calculations are done skewed towards diesel. The diesel FE is taken as 20 and 18kmpl which is city mileage driven efficiently. (Even in a frugal W-RV i-DTEC I am yet to touch 20kmpl on highway).
5. Incase of petrol you have taken 10kmpl and 12kmpl. We had the polo 1.0L TSI for the official review and redlined to galore. Drove it like we stole it and ensured we downshifted just for the sake of it for every overtake. The FE was 11.2kmpl.
With your calculations diesel will always look like a better option. Also you are discounting the fact that BS6 diesels give lower FE and actually waste diesel by burning them rich for purging the LNT and for DPF need high revs sustained for self cleaning. If both cars are MT, the FE difference will be 4-6kmpl not 8-10kmpl, especially since now most have 6 speed boxes. |
As you are well aware, we always compare with ex-showroom Delhi prices and rates, as a standard. Not literally to purchase from Delhi, hence skipping the first two arguments. Price across cities still show a difference between 5-7 kmpl, and Delhi is no exception to prices.
Regarding FE figures that you allege is 'skewed' - Those were not my plain assumptions, but after glancing through multiple comments on the forum. Now would you argue those were skewed too? Nexon Petrol which I used for above, example -
"
I am planning to buy Nexon petrol (XM MT). I took a test drive last week and completely satisfied with the performance of the vehicle. Only concern now I have about the mileage and after service. I saw many owner's in multiple FB groups, commenting about a very low mileage i.e., around 10 kmpl only, which scared me a little bit."
Source
"
Took delivery of an XM variant, petrol, manual transmission Nexon last week which joined the family garage. The car came in a rather lucid shade of orange!
- Fuel efficiency for the first 500 odd kms driven entirely within Kolkata city,AC on - CITY mode 90% and balance SPORT mode, with a couple of airport runs have been reading at 10.2kmpl . Measured on s tankfull to tankfull basis at auto cut-off."
Source
"
I have a petrol XZ+, and the first service is scheduled on this Saturday, Sept. 21. Currently getting a city mileage of 9.3 kmpl, T2T, in Kolkata, in City mode (100%)"
Source
"
I'm a current owner in Delhi NCR of -
2013 EcoSport P AT (40k Kms) &,
2018 Nexon XMA Petrol (4k Kms)
Generally, EcoSport gives 8-10 kmpl depending on the conditions. Nexon is giving 11-13 kmpl depending on the conditions. Both for city usage."
Source
"
I have been driving XZA+ (P) variant for the last one year. The mileage in the initial one or two months was dismal. I was getting only 5-6 kmpl in city traffic with temperature set to 24°C at all times. After the first service, it rose marginally to 8-9kmpl at most.
Presently, I have changed my driving style and now I'm getting around 11kmpl in the city.
The mileage on the highways hovers around 14-15kmpl at speeds of 80kmph."
Source
Coming to diesels - Seriously! Not able to achieve 20kmpl even on a WRV? I have no comments on your driving style FE figures as I'm yet to see the same.
But - my personal best on my rather heavy car without a 6th gear is 23kmpl (Pictures and data in my ownership report). Don't take my word for it though. Here's one from Arun Josie's log - It is possible to achieve more than 20 kmpl, even on a Jeep Compass 4*4. Maruti diesels achieve upwards of 25kmpl. (
Source - One among many many more you can find). 18 is easy at highway cruising speeds - especially on these modern cars with cruise control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 In summary you don't know what the govt. will announce and when it will announce against diesel. Come 2023, with WLTP emission testing, they might even say BS6 cars need to be upgraded at owner cost and diesel will be sold to private vehicles with additional taxes. What then? There's no peace of mind for a buyer or a manufacturer in selling diesels. |
What then? People who want diesels will rush to buy them before 2023.
Same as many who rushed ahead with a diesel deal before BS6 kicked in, when so many predictions were there back then as well - many of whom with borderline usage requirements that could have adjusted with a petrol as well. Buyers now would be less bother what additional taxes would come in 2023.
Except for Maruti Suzuki, only brands with less commitment to the Indian market - like VW Group, Renault/ Nissan etc have abandoned diesels. Hyundai - Kia, Honda, TATA, Mahindra, Ford, Jeep, MG - All of them sell BS6 diesels successfully. Not sure whether they do it with or without peace of mind!
Thats a lot of 'ifs' in one sentence though! Even if all those conditions were true, isn't it too early to assume no one will find a solution? Maruti predicted 1.5 lakhs price difference in the BS6 era and Hyundai/ Ford solved the BS6 equation for 17k. You might call it cheating with use of just LNT, but the point is - companies find new ways to overcome rules and get one up on the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 VW and Maruti might be the clever one here and Hyundai/Kia being cheeky to maximise profits in short term by pushing diesels.
When VW/Skoda launch their offerings, they won't have a diesel but will try to cover the diesel buyers with the 1.0L TSI engine and keep the performance oriented buyers to the 1.5L TSI covering both bases. 1.0L TSI could be cheaper than the 1.5L CRDI Kia/Hyundai and tempt buyers towards it.
It is an even bigger gamble that MAruti have taken. VW/Skoda have taken a gamble albeit a safe one. . |
Hope VW has similar confidence and wish them the best that their 'safe gamble' plays off. Because their break-or-make products are coming out in 2021 and two years (before 'there's no peace of mind for a buyer or a manufacturer in selling diesels') may be enough for the market to judge products as success or failure.