[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by desdemona

...That they continue to outsell many brands here by a long distance? That they have many lakhs of more or less satisfied customers, despite their alleged indifference to 'quality/reliability/ASS'....

Outsell brands like HM, Fiat & Skoda? Hope you also know TATA is being outsold by other players? That they were once a No.2 player in India? And also that they are just a shadow of what they were?

It's stupid of anyone to say that Indian's should buy an Indian car out of respect & loyalty. I pay my taxes to show my loyalty & patriotism. But when I buy a car, I prefer the one who gives max bang for my bucks - that includes the VFM nature of the product + reliability + A$$ which all together makes "peace of mind"!

TATA has enough products across enough segments to prove it. As I mentioned, if they had managed 50% sales for all their vehicles compared to the segment leader, then they will build enough confidence among the customers.

Simply moving to new segments without correcting & bettering the products in the existing segments does NOT provide them any advantage. No one raises a doubt about the VFM nature of the TATA cars; inspite of it customer prefer other brands which offer lower VFM comparatively. Does NOT that say something about the brand and it's reputation?

Originally Posted by Contrapunto

...I wish them well, but when it comes to my hard-earned 25-30 L, I will stick to the Fortuner thank you

Absolutely; when I put that kind of a money, I would look for a brand I trust in. I do NOT care whether TATA gives me the features of an S-Class in the 25L SUV, I need an assurance from a sizeable sample of customers that this bl**dy thing can run all day and night without breaking down / making a clown out of me in front of others (This applies to every brand I have access to, including Germans / Korean / Japanese / Indian).

Edit:: I think Scorpios performance over the last year proves very well that Indian customers are NOT avert to Indian products; provided they get maximum value out of it. Inspite of being such an old product it royally thrashed the most contemporary launches / bench mark ride & handling SUVs. End of the day, it's the trust & value a brand that brings to the customer more than their legacy.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Outsell brands like HM, Fiat & Skoda? Hope you also know TATA is being outsold by other players? That they were once a No.2 player in India? And also that they are just a shadow of what they were?

It's stupid of anyone to say that Indian's should buy an Indian car out of respect & loyalty. I pay my taxes to show my loyalty & patriotism. But when I buy a car, I prefer the one who gives max bang for my bucks - that includes the VFM nature of the product + reliability + A$$ which all together makes "peace of mind"!

TATA has enough products across enough segments to prove it. As I mentioned, if they had managed 50% sales for all their vehicles compared to the segment leader, then they will build enough confidence among the customers.

Simply moving to new segments without correcting & bettering the products in the existing segments does NOT provide them any advantage. No one raises a doubt about the VFM nature of the TATA cars; inspite of it customer prefer other brands which offer lower VFM comparatively. Does NOT that say something about the brand and it's reputation?



Absolutely; when I put that kind of a money, I would look for a brand I trust in. I do NOT care whether TATA gives me the features of an S-Class in the 25L SUV, I need an assurance from a sizeable sample of customers that this bl**dy thing can run all day and night without breaking down / making a clown out of me in front of others (This applies to every brand I have access to, including Germans / Korean / Japanese / Indian).

Edit:: I think Scorpios performance over the last year proves very well that Indian customers are NOT avert to Indian products; provided they get maximum value out of it. Inspite of being such an old product it royally thrashed the most contemporary launches / bench mark ride & handling SUVs. End of the day, it's the trust & value a brand that brings to the customer more than their legacy.

My appeal was not to patriotism at all. It was only to cut out the exagerated and prejudicial bashing of certain brands. That this bashing masquerades as rational, objective and true when it is just as much a function of ignorance, herd-thought, and warped brand-consciousness, is what i am arguing against. Keep an open mind on Tata, they've done well enough in this brutal car market, offering up hard-to-match value propositions, repeatedly.

And I still insist: the Safari Storme is at least as good as the Fortuner, and I mean objectively NOT as value for money. Now if some prefer paying a 13 lakh premium for a bloated brand name, and 'reliability' that is called 'legendary' for a reason...

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Friends, even we on team bhp love opining closed-mindedly, taking facile pleasure in belonging to a herd of safe 'public opinion'?! Or so I feel every time I encounter the gratuitous Tata-bashing that often goes on here. Why do we want to refuse to see:

That tata's role in the passenger car market is to showup the japanese and korean marques' excessive mark-ups borne of bloated stories of reliability+quality of ASS?

That tata motors keeps them honest by offering 'more car per car' which all their recent vehicles (vista, manza, storme, e-cs, even arguably aria ) do excellently with the zest and bolt and nexon coming soon enough?

That they continue to outsell many brands here by a long distance? That they have many lakhs of more or less satisfied customers, despite their alleged indifference to 'quality/reliability/ASS'.

We at team-bhp should be doing better than this repetitious bashing of this or that brand.

Of course, no personal offence meant at all, friends! And: i do not and have never owned a Tata, though I know very many who have.

I totally agree with most of it. What Indian brands offer is a low frill low cost option to the buyers. If you do not like it get a more expensive more "reliable" or "fancy" brand. What Tata or Mahindra offers for 7-10L bracket is not matched by any one. If they were so bad a VFM, then thousands of Boleros and Sumos would not be there in the rural areas.

We talk about German and British technology a lot. But you have to pay a steep price for it in terms of reliability and maintenance costs. From what I have gleaned, from this forum at least, is that our home grown offerings are many times more reliable and dirt cheap to maintain compared to the European brands.

Actually buying a German automobile today is akin to getting an Elephant in the past. Many can afford to buy them, but a few can afford to maintain them, that is why both are seen as a sign of extreme affluence and not practicality.

[greenhorn]

In a way, I sometimes wonder if Tata is trying to create the holy grail of unreliability - The joke just writes Itself.

Tata products have a long pedigree of niggling issues. To add to that;

• They already have a tie up in place with one of the stalwarts of making (to put it lightly), Traditionally high maintenance cars - FIAT.
• Now they want to go further and adopt best practices from the British industry - They're halfway there already because their cars are already possessed by Lucas (the Prince of darkness).
• To go Further, Now they are adding Land Rover DNA to it.

The only two things missing are

• Chrysler , an achievable target since fiat already owns it,
• Maybe in the long term, Skoda,

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

In a way, I sometimes wonder if Tata is trying to create the holy grail of unreliability - The joke just writes Itself.

Tata products have a long pedigree of niggling issues. To add to that;

• They already have a tie up in place with one of the stalwarts of making (to put it lightly), Traditionally high maintenance cars - FIAT.
• Now they want to go further and adopt best practices from the British industry - They're halfway there already because their cars are already possessed by Lucas (the Prince of darkness).
• To go Further, Now they are adding Land Rover DNA to it.

The only two things missing are

• Chrysler , an achievable target since fiat already owns it,
• Maybe in the long term, Skoda,

I appreciate the jokey tenor of your post, having noted that you are the owner of a '07 tata indica, except that:

Current fiats are NOT high or expensive maintenance cars (i have two fiats myself and know many linea and punto owners), not in India and not in europe or brazil. Fiat under marchionne has long ago overcome the 'fix it again tony' italian syndrome. And chrysler-dodge-ram-Jeep under fiat have greatly upped their quality and reliability, which is why they are outselling almost all other brands in the american market.

Fiat india's older palio owners would disagree but that is a 5+ year old story. You cannot assimilate fiat (or renault) into a 'european cars are high and expensive maintenance' stereotype.

Current tata-s are not nearly as unreliable as their old reputation suggests. Dated reputations that are admittedly hard to shake off because they are now backed by the great 'wisdom' of the herd of public opinion.

Of course we are all free to buy into, at exorbitant cost, legendary stories of reliability and ASS associated with certain East Asian marques.

[DicKy]

I thought the news was Tata was developing two brand new proper SUVs in the 10-13 lac range and the 20 lac range.
Didnt knew that they would be using a Landrover product instead. It's a good move, but i would like Tata to build their own products with technical inputs from Landrover than just using them, Though in the initial run, Tata could squeeze out Jag/LR expertise till they are able to come on their own properly. a la. Like what Hyundai did to Mitsubishi.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by DicKy

I thought the news was Tata was developing two brand new proper SUVs in the 10-13 lac range and the 20 lac range.
Didnt knew that they would be using a Landrover product instead. It's a good move, but i would like Tata to build their own products with technical inputs from Landrover than just using them, Though in the initial run, Tata could squeeze out Jag/LR expertise till they are able to come on their own properly. a la. Like what Hyundai did to Mitsubishi.

It doesn't make sense especially financially to develop on seperate lines, its a waste of time, money and manpower. If Tata has a ready made solution from JLR then best to use it.

Theres a big difference between the Hyundai Mitsu relationship and the Tata JLR one. Mitsubishi charges a hefty fee when Hyundai used their older Pajero design.

Tata on the other hand owns JLR, its a win win for everyone. JLR recycles the existing platform, helps shore up the parent companies profits, Tata gets a tried and tested platform from one of the best in the business for next to nothing.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Theres a big difference between the Hyundai Mitsu relationship and the Tata JLR one. Mitsubishi charges a hefty fee when Hyundai used their older Pajero design.

Tata on the other hand owns JLR, its a win win for everyone. JLR recycles the existing platform, helps shore up the parent companies profits, Tata gets a tried and tested platform from one of the best in the business for next to nothing.

Sure you are rightand i agree, i just meant that Hyundai used to source engines and platforms from Mitsubishi, but now they are developing on their own and even supplying to Mitsubishi and if rumours are true, even Mercedes Benz wanted to use Hyundais' 4cyl engine tech.
Just wanted to say that Tata should and must (should have done years ago) use technology from JLR, it shouldn't remain a company that uses hand down platforms from JLR. Not now , but in the future i dream of Tata developing expertise and launching premium products that challenges like Lexus did two decades ago or what Genesis does now.
We may own JLR, but they are ultimately british brands.

[Aditya]

Tata Motors' plan to two new SUVs with inputs from its British subsidiary, Jaguar Land Rover could not go forward as cost and positioning proved to be stumbling blocks. Now, the company is said to have worked its way around these hurdles and its board has approved the proposal.

Link to Team-BHP News Article

[imp!]

Originally Posted by Aditya

Tata Motors' plan to two new SUVs with inputs from its British subsidiary, Jaguar Land Rover could not go forward as cost and positioning proved to be stumbling blocks. Now, the company is said to have worked its way around these hurdles and its board has approved the proposal.

Link to Team-BHP News Article

This is without doubt the best that could happen to Tata Motors! However, in order for it to be a success, only german levels of fit, finish, minimalism and finesse need to be employed within the cabin. Tata should offer premium safety and fewer gimmicky features to offer a good car, which works as a car ought to. If this strategy is going to be followed for their entire line-up, then they should consider a new brand name for their more premium offerings. The Tata name is now inexorably married to the taxi segment. They may be able to divorce themselves from it, but, as things stand now, this will only be possible in the SUV market. I'm eagerly looking forward to see a great Indian conglomerate finally become a great automobile manufacturer. There is no reason we can't be better than the Germans, Japs and Koreans. The Bolt and Zest make it seem like Tata is rapidly catching up to the Americans and the drive dynamics seem better than both the Americans and the Koreans. I truly hope that Tata hire someone to modernize their procurement department (they have such a bad reputation in the industry that most companies worth their turn over in salt do not wish to work with Tata); this seems to be the need of the hour.

[Mad Max]

I think the problem with this company is lethargy. They are absolutely at the tail end of every curve. Everyone launched cheap 5 Lakh sedans and captured the market. Then, Tata launches the Zest. Most of them have already launched renewed versions of their hatchbacks, even Fiat! But the Bolt is yet to come. (oooh!). Somewhere, they need to get the first-mover advantage.

From a division known for it's SUV credentials, I am not sure why it did / should take that long to pull something together? Yes, they plan to bring in 2015. But we all know how that timeline looks in a Tata project plan. It will be nothing before the end of 2016 before they tout a new SUV and by that time, even VW (with their amazing head-in-the-butt mentality) would've launched a SUV.

[mercedised]

I donot see the current technology of Internal Combustion engines having any significant strides. Why are'nt they looking for bringing Electric vehicles. Here again Mahindra has played intelligently by buying Reva, it shows they are serious into electric vehicles and thereby being first to bring new technology to Indian market which is developing.

[nainan]

I think TATA sales are most affected by their ASS. As an owner of a Safari in the last 7 years the car despite its small niggles has never failed me anywhere so I am satisfied with the car. The 15k service interval is also awesome. But that one visit to the service centre is enough. They will advertise pick up and drop but when you call them wont have enough drivers. They will contest each warranty claim. They will fix something and it wont work. To fix it even though they have branches everywhere they will expect you to go back to the same service centre. There is a big lack of ownership and customer empathy. They seriously need to rethink warranty and ASS.

[arjab]

There were steady chirps from various birdies that TML was thinking of using Freelander-1 and Discovery - 2 platforms as bases for Q501/502 but with completely different upper bodies in line with current styling. Both these platforms had been highly successful for LR and are immensely strong as well for off road duties.
Anyone has any information on the progress of these??

[chncar]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I think the problem with this company is lethargy. They are absolutely at the tail end of every curve. Everyone launched cheap 5 Lakh sedans and captured the market. Then, Tata launches the Zest.

Didn't the Tata Indigo CS invent the compact sedan segment?