[Sankar]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You actually have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Do you know how a turbocharged engine works? A turbocharger draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters intake manifold, creating a pressure difference that allows more air to go into the engine than it would if the pressure was just the atmospheric pressure. More also means more fuel goes into the engine and hence more power. The fuel saving comes by the virtue of a higher powered engine having to 'work less' relatively than a low powered engine at the same speed. The keyword here is that more fuel is pumped into the cylinder not less.

The variable geometry turbocharger will allow higher boost pressure compared to an FGT at lower rpm and in the same breath it will also consume more fuel proportionate to the increase in boost pressure giving more power and torque. Again the increase in efficiency will come from the engine having to work less and not because the engine will consume less fuel.

I guess you know that we are not discussing petrol engines here? I don't see anything wrong in what IshaanIan said.
More air does not necessarily mean more fuel when it comes to a Diesel engine. More air in Diesel engine will not cause excessive engine temperature like in a petrol motor and Diesels happily operate under excess air conditions. If the engine doesn't need to make more torque the ECU will not inject more fuel. During cruising the torque demands are low and steady, and additional fuel is not injected unless needed (gradients/air drag). Fuel is wasted when operated under lag or when there is not enough air to burn completely, in a modern VGT the ECU has more control over air.

Well you are correct when you say that more FE is due to higher powered engine having to work less, but add better aerodynamics to one of the reasons why the engine has to work less (and so taller gearing can be used if deemed so).

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Unfortunately I don't but I am not for a moment suggesting that aerodynamics cannot make a difference. Please do not loose context here, the context being Maruti Dzire/Swift vs Ciaz. Ciaz may be good aerodynamically, but so is Swift/Dzire. I cannot fathom a 15% increase in efficiency purely being attributed to aero when compared to Swift/Dzire and that is ignoring weight and fuel penalty of a more powerful engine.

We need more data to be conclusive.

The question being asked here is not whether Maruti Swift/Dzire is good aerodynamically, but why Ciaz offers better FE. All modern cars are good aerodynamically. Swift/Dzire Cd may be good because its a modern design, but how good? Is it better than Ciaz? What do you think?

I think you should read more about aerodynamics before you dismiss it in favour of weight. Weight is also important but here the difference is marginal, but difference in aero is huge. Speaking relatively the Swift looks like a brick and the Ciaz is like a piece of a week old Lux soap.

A link showing how Cd will affect FE and at different speeds:

http://mirageforum.com/forum/showthr...full=1#post531

Another interesting link if someone wants to try out some shapes and find its Cd:
http://hpwizard.com/aerodynamics.html

[Swiftoholic]

I have never owned any automobile brand other than Maruti, however, I must admit that my after sales experience when compared with my friends who own Hondas has been horrific. This is when I stay in Gurgaon, Maruti's home and have gotten the car serviced mostly at the closest service station to Maruti's factory. The thought of taking a car like Ciaz to the now hated (disclaimer: talking only about myself here) Pasco automobiles sends shivers down my spine with every service expected to be upwards of Rs 10k! About the car, well, it is quite a looker from certain angles, but a bit disappointing when looked at from the front. The Dzire inspired grill makes it appear a generation or two old, really! It seems a lot of customer surveys were done and Maruti designed a car considering a checklist of items that was a fruit of those surveys. Have read a review online, and there is not a single innovative feature which makes it stand apart from the competition. Where are Maruti's thought leaders? Maruti may not think likewise, but I predict they are going to have a tough time wooing Honda City prospects with an extra 10 cms of wheelbase and nothing extraordinary on offer. What also beats me is the fact that Ciaz offers 90 BHP engines when the competition has been offering 120 BHP+ engines for quite long now. They really need to source bigger engines if they can't design/build their own. 'Projector headlamps on the base variant' sounds cool though! I am looking for an upgrade next year, and I am really not excited about Ciaz!

[im_srini]

Hello Folks,

I'm not sure how valid the talk of published FE figures & Aerodynamic efficiency is.

The published FE figures are from tests on a rolling road in a closed cell.

Of course, real world FE numbers are influenced by aerodynamic efficiency, but which manufacturer publishes those anyway ?

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by Swiftoholic

Where are Maruti's thought leaders? Maruti may not think likewise, but I predict they are going to have a tough time wooing Honda City prospects with an extra 10 cms of wheelbase and nothing extraordinary on offer. What also beats me is the fact that Ciaz offers 90 BHP engines when the competition has been offering 120 BHP+ engines for quite long now.

Someone said this before already in one of the responses. If Maruti undercuts City/Verna when it comes to pricing, there are enough out there who trust Maruti and would upgrade to Ciaz over City/Verna. And honestly, 80% of the folks buying cars do not compare beyond features, space, FE, brand image & price let alone wheelbase or BHP. And in all of these, Ciaz more than matches the City/Verna.

Of course these people "out" there probably are not clued in to Team-Bhp where we disect things to the last possible bolt. Its the educated and interested lot who take for ever to make decisions!

Also, imagine all those folks who are buying 2nd cars for their wives, moms-dads that will be driven by drivers. Somehow, i think this will fit in really nice into their plans.

But we will not known for sure until we read something like "MSIL receives 10000 bookings for Ciaz in 1month" as is the norm these days.

[RavenAvi]

CarDekho reports exclusively that the Ciaz will be launched on October 10th, 2014.

SOURCE - CarDekho


As per Yahoo India's review, the Ciaz diesel returned an FE of 22.7 kmpl during their test drive review.

During the test drive, the diesel Ciaz delivered 22.7kmpl, which considering some high speed testing involved, is really praiseworthy.

SOURCE - Yahoo India's Ciaz review

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I guess you know that we are not discussing petrol engines here? I don't see anything wrong in what IshaanIan said.
More air does not necessarily mean more fuel when it comes to a Diesel engine. More air in Diesel engine will not cause excessive engine temperature like in a petrol motor and Diesels happily operate under excess air conditions. If the engine doesn't need to make more torque the ECU will not inject more fuel..
]

Spot on. People seem to miss out on details and make all sorts of claims. The effect of forced induction in petrol engine and diesel engine is different mainly due to the fact that the AFR in petrol engines should be kept within a narrow band of values while a diesel engine can have practicality any AFR. Hence in this case the ECU will have very good control on both Air and fuel since the VGT has an electronic control which isn't so in the FGT version.

I guess the fifth gear is really tall which aids in a lower engine speed during cruising. This will result in lesser fuel consumption in the kind of tests ARAI does. Since the diesel engine can lean out to the most possible extent, the consumption during cruising will be very less.

No one takes ARAI figures seriously irrespective of the car. However, it is a valuable tool to compare between car and car, since all cars are tested in the same method. It can be regarded as an FE score instead of manufacturers claiming tall figures following their own ways of testing. Hence, in this case it can just be used as a comparison tool at least.

[Vitalstatistiks]

Just observed. We keep talking about janta obsessed with 'kitna deti hai' and add "who are not on team-bhp" in the same breath. I think we should drop that chip (again, those who think like that, not all). Well, team-bhp folks haven't dropped from Pandora. The four page discussion on fuel efficiency in Ciaz thread, stands testimony

[srameshdelhi]

Originally Posted by Swiftoholic

I have never owned any automobile brand other than Maruti, however, I must admit that my after sales experience when compared with my friends who own Hondas has been horrific. This is when I stay in Gurgaon, Maruti's home and have gotten the car serviced mostly at the closest service station to Maruti's factory. The thought of taking a car like Ciaz to the now hated (disclaimer: talking only about myself here) Pasco automobiles sends shivers down my spine with every service expected to be upwards of Rs 10k!

Quite understandable if you are getting your car serviced at Pasco. Your actual problem is with Pasco and not Maruti. If ASS is a concern, Maruti beats all manufacturers hands down. My ASS journey progressed like this. Maruti (WagonR-Pasco/Apra)-Maruti (Alto-Competent)-Maruti (Swift-DD Motors), Chevrolet(Aveo-Autovikas), Ford(Fiesta-Harpreet Ford), Renault (Duster-Divine Autotech). With this varied experience, I rate Maruti ASS the best, Value for money. But Maruti with Pasco is something I fret even today.

[SumitBahl]

Maruti service is no longer cheap.
Service bills for my 6 year old Dzire VDi were 4-5k for 10k kms and anywhere between 8-10k for 20k kms.

A friend of mine had SX4 (Diesel), he pays close to 10k (sometimes more) for every alternate service.

Availability of spares and parts is excellent though. Everything is available off the shelf.

[Gurudatta Nayak]

I totally agree with you Sumit. Maruti service is not that cheap.
My recent Swift Service for 80K kms, the bill was 9.5K

But I still love the vehicles from Maruti due to availability of spare.

Originally Posted by SumitBahl

Maruti service is no longer cheap.
Service bills for my 6 year old Dzire VDi were 4-5k for 10k kms and anywhere between 8-10k for 20k kms.

A friend of mine had SX4 (Diesel), he pays close to 10k (sometimes more) for every alternate service.

Availability of spares and parts is excellent though. Everything is available off the shelf.

[Adi22]

The ciaz will surely pull off customers from the city & verna, not to forget scala/sunny because of its sheer size. It should hold on well with the existing competition because of maruti brand + Kmpl + biggest looking one in the segment (?) + better priced (hopefully)

[Swiftoholic]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

If Maruti undercuts City/Verna when it comes to pricing, there are enough out there who trust Maruti and would upgrade to Ciaz over City/Verna.....

Well, as far as I know there is information available on its pricing. Maruti could not have priced it any closer to City. Its exactly the same bracket, 7 to 11 lacs ex-showroom.

As I mentioned earlier, MASS network is extensive, but expensive and on the other Honda's is slightly less extensive, but much more reliable. Having said that, urban dwellers don't need to worry about finding a service station, they will be better off with Honda's more assuring after sales service network. Makes Honda's proposition sweeter!

It will come down to which car is a better overall package and right now I think City will score over Ciaz. Its proven, reliable, quieter than Ciaz for sure from initial reviews, more powerful and so on...

However, all your other arguments do pack a punch and it saddens me! Maruti is 'ullu banaoing' our junta in this age of 'Idea' driven smart phones!

Originally Posted by srameshdelhi

Quite understandable if you are getting your car serviced at Pasco. Your actual problem is with Pasco and not Maruti. If ASS is a concern, Maruti beats all manufacturers hands down. My ASS journey progressed like this. Maruti (WagonR-Pasco/Apra)-Maruti (Alto-Competent)-Maruti (Swift-DD Motors), Chevrolet(Aveo-Autovikas), Ford(Fiesta-Harpreet Ford), Renault (Duster-Divine Autotech). With this varied experience, I rate Maruti ASS the best, Value for money. But Maruti with Pasco is something I fret even today.

A Honda is conspicuous by its absence in your long list of cars and service stations. Do talk to a Honda owner within your circle about his/her after sales service experience, and I bet you will make you think! Year on year, owners blindly leave their Hondas at service stations for a fraction of - something like Maruti Swift's - service cost, and these cars never let their owners down, crunching miles after miles after miles with consistent fuel efficiency!

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[manishkapadia]

I as a Honda City user for past 4.5 years and Simultaneously an i10 ( Dad uses ) for the same time can say that Honda Service costs me even lower than an i10 right now. And the fact that the vehicle is so trouble free that my wife keeps saying that you might still be using your City after 10 years .

Used to have an Accent before the City and that too was considerably more expensive to maintain. My only issue with Honda is that they will not even sell me a Wiper Blade till i take a service appointment and open up a job card. Recently i needed one and Solitaire refused. Needless to say i had to go out of town and purchased it from outside.

But thats deviation from topic . The Ciaz does look extremely spacious , and if it is built to last like the City i use then eventually it will have its fan following.

[romeomidhun]

Was rechecking Anshuman's initial posts and features / specs. Most of them are correct except the version info! He has such hold on the Maruti development process, for sure. Kudos, Anshuman!

[Vitalstatistiks]

Originally Posted by Swiftoholic

As I mentioned earlier, MASS network is extensive, but expensive and on the other Honda's is slightly less extensive, but much more reliable.

Spot on. Like I was discussing with someone the other day, for Maruti's after sales, folks generally praise the extensive network and availability of spares. But that does mean the vehicle is as reliable as, say, a Toyota or even Honda (personal experience). Just means it is easily serviceable. Huge difference.