[drsingh]

Originally Posted by amalji

The fact is Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere. While Maruti invested on better interiors and a powerful engine, Toyota invested on practicality, reliability, a better drivable engine ( read combo of bigger engine and smaller turbo aka better city drivability ) and even better parts used inside the engine like in the case of piezo electric injectors. The former is easier to identify for the customer since they are seen more clearly. The later is in accordance with the Toyota philosophy of creating durable, practical and ergonomic cars.

This is the third time i hve come across "piezo electric injectors" as technical superiority.I have to ask again:

Dont all modern Common Rail engines use piezo electric injectors?

I think the clear advantage of the liva is service costs and experience of ownership.This is a car a lady or a senior citizen can take for a service and be attended to nicely and have a trouble free experience.

Engine wise the 1.3 multijet is at par or better.

It is definitely on my shortlist.Along with the Sail.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I am a common man & the way I see Figo's success :

Figo has cheap interiors; but then it's priced cheaper too
Figo has lesser power; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser refinement; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser FE; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo does not have rear PW; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has more space than Swift; AND it's STILL priced lesser
Figo has better ride quality; AND it's STILL priced lesser

Well, the on-road price of Figo Titanium in Kolkata is Rs 6,56,327/-
Liva GD is Rs 6,59,585/-

Cheap interior, lesser power, lesser refinement, lesser FE, no power window at the back for Figo, as you said.

And cheaper in price by just about Rs 3000/-

Doesn't make sense to me. I am a common man too.

[parsh]

Originally Posted by amalji

I haven't faced ( maybe, it has to do with my driving style ) any issue with rear suspensions till date on my Etios ( sedan ) . will double check anyway.

Are you sure that Toyota has a new design even for the rear suspensions? If possible, please share the part number, when you do the replacement. :-)

Originally Posted by parsh

I did observe the infrequent thuds at both ends, depending upon how I was driving at a particular time, having driven it in Pune, Sinhagad, Lavassa areas on various roads etc.

Earlier, they were saying it has got to do with only some adjustments in the existing setup. However, I insisted about the new setup having come up and being replaced in warranty, and they readily agree to get both.

Will surely do. I am planning to do the snapping business and get all info when I go for it next week. They had allowed me to be present at shopfloor and snap along for the fuel hose change campaign. So I am hoping they will allow this time also. I do not mind standing for hours if required. Lets see.

Some clarifications are in order.

Got the suspension work done on Monday, 25 March 2013 at DSK, Bawdhan, Pune. Although I requested them to photograph the process, it was not possible due to the now stricter regulations, inspite of requesting their management. But they aptly addressed it and allowed me to observe the whole upgrade process. It is very simple actually and they don't even have to raise it up on lift much, just about a feet above the ground and they can easily access the suspension setup. Got only the front suspension setup changed in warranty and spacers of 1" added to the rear suspension.

The following is what it is as it transpires now after seeing through and discussion with their authorities:
1. The front suspensions are replaced under warranty without any charges based upon frequent THUD feedback from customers. The part numbers and process is already published in earlier posts.

2. For normal personal use, for rear suspension, there is in warranty provision of adding spaces of 1" thickness at the top of the spring to give that extra height and sturdiness. This is stated to be sufficient for normal family use without having need for overloading on a daily basis with full occupancy and heavy luggage load. This is stated to suffice regular 1-2 occupants, city speed breakers, patchy roads and once in a while full load for outstation heavy usage. Thus, it is not advised to put this in the car if it is not heavily loaded on a daily basis. The present suspension is stated to have better soft ride at back as it is with addition of the spacers. I will observe the effect after I test drive it next extensively.

3. For heavy use in case of Taxis, Travels, Tourists Etioses they have come up with a new rear suspension design which is much harder than the present one. It is stated to give utterly hard suspension and only advised for really heavy load usage and not recommended for situations as in 2 above. If put on a regular use car, the car will bounce heavily at rear tossing away the comfort of the car. And IT IS OUT OF WARRANTY. Costs about Rs 3600/- incl taxes. So think carefully before going for them. Could not get the part number for this though.

Either way, if you are opting for either or both upgrades, deal properly and allow for decent time to get the parts in stock as it seems to be on a case to case basis as the customer demands and not heavily stocked.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by drsingh

This is the third time i hve come across "piezo electric injectors" as technical superiority.I have to ask again:

Dont all modern Common Rail engines use piezo electric injectors?

I think the clear advantage of the liva is service costs and experience of ownership.This is a car a lady or a senior citizen can take for a service and be attended to nicely and have a trouble free experience.

Engine wise the 1.3 multijet is at par or better.

It is definitely on my shortlist.Along with the Sail.

+1. Most common rail injectors run on the Piezo electric injectors in order to handle the high pressures of the common rail.

The Liva with 1.4 D4D is in a detuned state to aid the longetivity of the engine and linear power delivery. However, with the light weight of the cars the linear acceleration does help in making quick progress.

Regular servicing costs should be quite cheap. But accidental repairs can turn out costly for Toyota vehicles.

In the process of getting a table ready for the main diesel engines in the category stating the differences between the 1.4 D4D, 1.3 MJD, 1.4 TDCi, 1.5 Crdi and 1.5 DCi.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by drsingh

This is the third time i hve come across "piezo electric injectors" as technical superiority.I have to ask again:
Dont all modern Common Rail engines use piezo electric injectors?

No, the swift uses solenoid injectors. My comparison was with the Swift.

Originally Posted by drsingh

I think the clear advantage of the liva is service costs and experience of ownership.This is a car a lady or a senior citizen can take for a service and be attended to nicely and have a trouble free experience.

I'm 31 , doesn't fall in either of these categories, but still love the Etios/liva for the sheer driving pleasure it offers.

Originally Posted by drsingh

Engine wise the 1.3 multijet is at par or better.

I've already mentioned that the swift DDiS is indeed more powerful. These are the engine characteristics of a liva.

Liva is less powerful than Swift DDiS by 4%
Liva offer better city drivability due to the combination of smaller turbo and bigger engine.
Acceleration and deceleration is progressive and linear thanks to that excellent torque curve ( even the piezo electric injectors should have an impact here )
Peak torque is not just available on a single point, but over an rpm range from 1800 to 2400. This translates into predictable and consistent acceleration. Check out diesel engine torque curve shapes of Audi and BMW. You will find that they too design it this way but over a much wider range.

Originally Posted by drsingh

It is definitely on my shortlist.Along with the Sail.

The sail is a fantastic car ( if we ignore the service network and financial status of GM and their uncertain future )

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Well, the on-road price of Figo Titanium in Kolkata is Rs 6,56,327/-
Liva GD is Rs 6,59,585/-

Cheap interior, lesser power, lesser refinement, lesser FE, no power window at the back for Figo, as you said.

And cheaper in price by just about Rs 3000/-

Doesn't make sense to me. I am a common man too.

Is the on road price for the GD safety pack or the non safety pack?

If it is for the safety pack, then you still lose out on rear wiper, rear washer, audio system with bluetooth, fog lamps, distance to empty, tachometer, alloy wheels, seat height adjust, and some more extra features as well.

Originally Posted by amalji

The fact is Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere. While Maruti invested on better interiors and a powerful engine, Toyota invested on practicality, reliability, a better drivable engine ( read combo of bigger engine and smaller turbo aka better city drivability ) and even better parts used inside the engine like in the case of piezo electric injectors. The former is easier to identify for the customer since they are seen more clearly. The later is in accordance with the Toyota philosophy of creating durable, practical and ergonomic cars.

As someone else pointed out. piezo electric injectors are now pretty much the norm for CRDi injectors.

Also, the Etios/Liva engine codenamed the 1ND-TV is an engine that dates back to 2001. The technology is now pretty much ancient when it comes to technology with SOHC and 2 valves per cylinder. That too with a fixed geometry turbo rather than a VGT.

The Multi Jet is pretty much the most modern engine out there in that segment. Ofcourse that will soon change with the i-DTEC Honda power plant.

I don't think Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere, they just decided not to invest at all in the first place.

And Ford India still continues to be a loss making company in India. The question is if Ford sells a car on loss, should Toyota do the same thing or not ? And Toyotas are not known to do that anywhere in the world. So, why should they do that in India which is after all a small market for them. They would instead hold on to their design philosophies.

Ford is making losses not because of the Figo. The Figo infact is what is keeping Ford alive and above the water. The losses are due to their products that were priced wrongly and market duds like the new Fiesta and Endeavour.

Incase of Toyota it is the opposite. They are bleeding due to the Etios/Liva flop followed by the dwindling Altis numbers. The Fortuner and Innova are only think that are keeping the Toyota cash registers ringing.

Having driven the Fiesta to Munnar and back recently, the experience of driving an Etios is much superior ( read peppier, more ergonomic ). The difference was felt as soon as I switched cars after the trip.

Depends on personal preference. I would any day go for a Fiesta over an Etios or my Altis for a highway drive. The steering, suspension and brakes are what I like and I absolutely hate the light steering and feather weight feeling at speeds.

But, then Dzire cannot be called a sedan. It's an extended hatch with a boot space comparable to Ford Figo.

Call it what you want but why does it sell 7-8 times more than the Etios? At the end it is ugly, has a small boot, poor rear seat space but Maruti got it right and it is bringing home the numbers.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

If it is for the safety pack, then you still lose out on rear wiper, rear washer, audio system with bluetooth, fog lamps, distance to empty, tachometer, alloy wheels, seat height adjust, and some more extra features as well.

Agreed. Seat height adjust has been added in the new model of Liva (I think). But frankly, excepting the electrically adjustable ORVMs in Figo Titanium which I miss in Liva, the rest do not bother me much.

I would rather go for a better engine and better brakes.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

A good taxi market should be good for a car....

Yes & No! Taxi cars = reliability & low cost of running, which adds to the positive aspect of the car. It also means what @KarthiKK has put down below, which is a BIG negative. Indica / Vista / Indigo / Verito / Innova are all examples of this. If you see this very forum, a lot of people strike these off their list (even after acknowledging these are nice cars) because of ONLY one reason - taxi badge!!

Originally Posted by KarthikK

...In my opinion, it destroys the desirability factor for prospective (white-board) private owners...

+1. I was thinking of the apt word to put it across and you said it.

Originally Posted by amalji

Maruti over prizing happens because Maruti have to pay a royalty of 5% to Suzuki. ie, for a 7 Lakh Swift, they pay Rs. 35,000 as Royalty to Suzuki...

To be frank, as a customer, I really don't bother about the royalty, import content etc in a vehicle. All I care is I get a decently priced, no non-sense car which I can use for 5 years.

Originally Posted by amalji

... Maruti's advantages are its sales and service network which reaches every nook and corner of the country. So, almost anything that Maruti manufactures becomes a hit...

I am NOT sure anymore. The way SX4 was introduced and made hay in the initial days and what a dud now it is, I think there are factors beyond the widest A$$! Similarly Estilo, Ritz etc.

Originally Posted by amalji

... And there is a myth going the rounds that Maruti is cheap to maintain....

True. But seems even that is being overlooked by the customers now a days. So even low service cost may not be a strong criterion to sell a car now; of course it is good to have.

I can go ahead one step and still be with you on the argument saying most of the buyers in the segment does NOT know the comparatively high service costs associated with the Maruti cars; but then what is Toyota doing to bring awareness among the masses? They should do it.

Originally Posted by amalji

...The fact is Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere. While Maruti invested on better interiors and a powerful engine, Toyota invested on practicality, reliability, a better drivable engine ( read combo of bigger engine and smaller turbo aka better city drivability )...The later is in accordance with the Toyota philosophy of creating durable, practical and ergonomic cars...

This is where I still can't agree with a lot of people. Private car buyers (and I assume 80% of them), will use their cars to a max 5 years / 1,00,000 kms. Probably very few of them keep them for more.

Now even a 1.4 TDCi or 1.3 MJD can easily do 1L kms without major work. So what is Toyota specially offering for these segment buyers over the TDCi / MJD? Lesser service cost? But then Toyota customers do pay a sales premium over these cars too right? Net effect ~ 0 ??

Originally Posted by amalji

...Again, Toyota design philosophy is not according to what people want from them....I'm glad that Toyota didn't do that and instead concentrated on giving a car with good fundamentals at the cost of gizmos. But would I have preferred a car with a strong fundamentals and gizmos ? Yes, I certainly would...

But then their philosophy is NOT doing good for the company w.r.t these products right? When you say "fundamentals", I agree 100% about the engines / mechanical parts! But I can't relate fundamentals and how the centre console & single wiper and cheap plastics help the customers in the long run!

Originally Posted by amalji

....And Ford India still continues to be a loss making company in India. The question is if Ford sells a car on loss, should Toyota do the same thing or not ? And Toyotas are not known to do that anywhere in the world. So, why should they do that in India which is after all a small market for them. They would instead hold on to their design philosophies...

Figo has been their BEST selling model yet, in spite of the pointed out issues in my post! To me, they (Ford) understood the Indian market much better than Toyota in the mass market segment.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Well, the on-road price of Figo Titanium in Kolkata is Rs 6,56,327/-
Liva GD is Rs 6,59,585/-

Cheap interior, lesser power, lesser refinement, lesser FE, no power window at the back as you said.

And cheaper in price by just about Rs 3000/-

Doesn't make sense to me. I am a common man too.

How about a complete feature comparison between these two?? I respect your preference w.r.t the two choices; the sales figures show that a whole lot of people in the segment see more value in the Figo than a Liva.

[parsh]

While the car work was in progress, I got a touch feel of the new launch, though could not go for a drive.

1. The plastics are absolutely the same, the same thickness, the material, the same grains, just the feel good vinyl layer treatment, nothing more IMO. On this side only DZire seems to have the real richness feel to interiors.

2. The speedometer though now blued and may look better to quite a few, still looks like a sticker, its the same essentially with different color combination. Atleast addition of the Tachometer by default would have done much good.

3. I have doubts about the front seats thicknesses being changed other than having adjustable headrests. Even the Sales Adviser was telling that the thickness is the same. Still to check properly comparatively. I did not feel much of a difference in the seating, though felt better support with adjustable headrests.

4. Some changes in the rear seat headrests, seem to have been raised and made bit chunkier, felt better support with the headrests.

5. Could not find any specific implementation for the NVH control all around. The dicky hatch door gets a padding probably just to hide the bare bones visible earlier.

6. Raise the boot and the corrugated sheet covering spare is same, the carpet usage the same all around and to the same extent.

7. ORVMs though look sleek and funky, seem to offer lesser view than earlier surely.

8. The Audio system looks way better than earlier cheap looking, but only looks. It still does not gel together well with the socket like the competition which have uniform unibody feel with the OEM fit and finish.

9. Welcome improvement would have been better front door speakers and addition of rear door speakers by default instead of need to put speakers on the parcel tray.

10. Good to see the warranty coverage for replacement of front suspension upgrade to new design and addition of spacers for rear suspension. On first feel, seems good to have upgraded but some extensive testing is required.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

If it is for the safety pack, then you still lose out on rear wiper, rear washer, audio system with bluetooth, fog lamps, distance to empty, tachometer, alloy wheels, seat height adjust, and some more extra features as well.

PS: I would recommend Figo any day over the Swift for the practicality it offers ( inspite of the sluggish drive )

This is the comparo, I have for Figo/Liva

Figo Positives

Better NVH Control
Meter - Tacho/Fuel status
Alloy Wheels
Looks good inside

Liva Positives
Better Drivability
Better power delivery ( The Fiesta classic Felt really sluggish especially on trips to hills )
Sure slotting gears
Better Driving Position
Progressive Acceleration
Ergonomics ( The speedo was useless for me, after I used the steering tilt on Fiesta. It cut right across the speedo and rpm meter ),
the horn was so hard to press from a comfortable position while steering,
the indicators accidentally turns on, if I'm not careful while using the dim/bright button carefully,
The indicator button on the left side means you cannot turn it on while having your hand on gears.
The travel for height adjustment of the new Liva is leagues ahead.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

As someone else pointed out. piezo electric injectors are now pretty much the norm for CRDi injectors.

Not so with the Swift. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Also, the Etios/Liva engine codenamed the 1ND-TV is an engine that dates back to 2001. The technology is now pretty much ancient when it comes to technology with SOHC and 2 valves per cylinder. That too with a fixed geometry turbo rather than a VGT.

The Multi Jet is pretty much the most modern engine out there in that segment. Ofcourse that will soon change with the i-DTEC Honda power plant.

1. Does Figo/Swift ( the cars which we compared give FGT ? )
2. With an older technology, smaller FGT and bigger engine combination, Toyota provides a better torque curve shape, peak torque over an rpm range instead of on a single point, progressive acceleration and better mileage at the cost of 4% lesser torque to weight ratio. I would take that any day.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I don't think Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere, they just decided not to invest at all in the first place.

They gave

• a bigger cabin
• a bigger boot
• piezo electric injectors
• fuel filter design that lasts the lifetime of the car
• air filters that lasts 40,000 kms
• coolant that lasts 1,50,000 kms
• the best brakes in its class
• an excellent engine with fantastic drivability
• and a car that is so cheap to maintain and run

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Ford is making losses not because of the Figo. The Figo infact is what is keeping Ford alive and above the water. The losses are due to their products that were priced wrongly and market duds like the new Fiesta and Endeavour.
Incase of Toyota it is the opposite. They are bleeding due to the Etios/Liva flop followed by the dwindling Altis numbers. The Fortuner and Innova are only think that are keeping the Toyota cash registers ringing.

85% of the Ford's sales constitute the Figo and Fiesta Classic combined. Inspite of that, if it's not able to make up for the loses incurred by other models, then the company is not running a profitable model. And if my memory is correct, Ford has never ever made profit in India. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

In contrast, 30% of Toyota sales constitute flop model ( according to you ). Still they are financially healthy. So, I'm not sure how much of a flop they are.

Now regarding sales, these are the numbers from February 2013

Figo - 3804
Fiesta - 503
Total - 4308

Etios - 2797
Liva - 1698
Total - 4495

While the hatchback version of Ford churns out good numbers, the sedan variant churns out pathetic numbers. And inspite of the fact that Liva doesn't offer a premium variant for Liva Diesel, the total sales still exceeds the Fiesta/Figo combination.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Depends on personal preference. I would any day go for a Fiesta over an Etios or my Altis for a highway drive. The steering, suspension and brakes are what I like and I absolutely hate the light steering and feather weight feeling at speeds.

This is what I felt after the trip to Munnar on Fiesta Classic.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Call it what you want but why does it sell 7-8 times more than the Etios? At the end it is ugly, has a small boot, poor rear seat space but Maruti got it right and it is bringing home the numbers.

Why doesn't the same car sell in volumes in countries other than in India ?
Reasons are simple.

• It's difficult to defeat a market leader. It's always easy to create an alternate segment instead. In South Africa where Etios is now launched, they are the number 3 best seller ( in some months number 2 as well ). And yes, they have Figo priced similarly as in India. In that market, more than the aesthetics, practicality and fundamentals matters more.
• Indians are obsessed with a Maruti
• The reach of Maruti sales and service.
• And yeah, we Indians like to show off our car to our neighbors. So, aesthetics matters even on the cheapest cars even if it comes at the cost of fundamentals.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Yes & No! Taxi cars = reliability & low cost of running, which adds to the positive aspect of the car. It also means what @KarthiKK has put down below, which is a BIG negative. Indica / Vista / Indigo / Verito / Innova are all examples of this. If you see this very forum, a lot of people strike these off their list (even after acknowledging these are nice cars) because of ONLY one reason - taxi badge!!

I acknowledge that emotional factor. But, at the same time, it doesn't set a good precedent to limit access to certain markets to preserve image. Giving a big cabin and boot with the T reliability is the best thing for taxi markets. I'm for the design cues that makes it a favourite taxi ( inspite of the fact that it's 1 Lakh costlier than a Dzire according to @vid ) and really don't care about what people think of it. With strong backing, a company can certainly overcome this ( as in the case of Qualis and Innova )

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

To be frank, as a customer, I really don't bother about the royalty, import content etc in a vehicle. All I care is I get a decently priced, no non-sense car which I can use for 5 years.

Exactly, that is the reason why I would always prefer an Etios which gives me loads of cabin space and boot space, very good ergonomics, drive quality and the best in class braking. But, unfortunately these are not the most important factors in Indian market. People tend to expect a lot of aesthetics, even if it is from a cheap car. Even if it comes at the cost of practicality, utility, it still doesn't matter. Our market needs gizmos and aesthetics. And that's exactly why Maruti Suzuki continues to be number 1 in India, whereas they don't excel anywhere else in the world.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I am NOT sure anymore. The way SX4 was introduced and made hay in the initial days and what a dud now it is, I think there are factors beyond the widest A$$! Similarly Estilo, Ritz etc.

Again, Maruti was getting into an unknown zone - the premium market and inspite of their market share, they never could get things right with regards to quality for cars compared to competition for cars above 8 Lakhs

They did it with Ertiga - But, that was by creating a new segment. Since, the month Ertiga was released, the sales that were most affected were Etios and Sunny. Both cars used to provide utility. But, then Ertiga provided more utility for a person looking for a sedan ( I don't consider the new Dzire as a sedan ).

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

but then what is Toyota doing to bring awareness among the masses? They should do it.

They do have a genuine problem here. Very neutral marketing compared to Maruti and Hyundai who go all out in projecting their advantages compared to the competition.
As I've mentioned even in my ownership thread, the attitude of sales in Toyota is very cold. Go straight to a Maruti dealer after going to Toyota and you will understand the difference.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

This is where I still can't agree with a lot of people. Private car buyers (and I assume 80% of them), will use their cars to a max 5 years / 1,00,000 kms. Probably very few of them keep them for more.
Now even a 1.4 TDCi or 1.3 MJD can easily do 1L kms without major work. So what is Toyota specially offering for these segment buyers over the TDCi / MJD? Lesser service cost? But then Toyota customers do pay a sales premium over these cars too right? Net effect ~ 0 ??

Not exactly. They also give you a

• Bigger cabin
• Bigger Boot
• Best in class brakes
• More ergonomic design
• Longest wheel base in segment

to add to the cheap maintenance costs.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

But then their philosophy is NOT doing good for the company w.r.t these products right? When you say "fundamentals", I agree 100% about the engines / mechanical parts! But I can't relate fundamentals and how the centre console & single wiper and cheap plastics help the customers in the long run!

single wiper - Debated several times. The wiper used on the Etios is dual arm mono wiper which changes angle of rotation and hence provides a non-circular sweep and a huge sweep it is. The same technology ( with a more optimized sweep ) was even used by the Mercedez on some of their cars. There are people who really love it. Having used it on my Etios, I love it more than the conventional wipers which provides a lesser sweep area and a distraction at the center of windscreen.

Plastics - I've not heard of any Etios which has an issue with Plastics apart from the looks. And suddenly people even started saying plastic quality is much better as soon as Toyota just changed the colour combination.

Centre console - While, it's not aesthetic. It's much more ergonomic than a side console. But yes, this did affect the sales of Etios. They could atleast come up with a better looking design.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Figo has been their BEST selling model yet, in spite of the pointed out issues in my post! To me, they (Ford) understood the Indian market much better than Toyota in the mass market segment.

Figo is a fantastic car ( practicality and utility wise ) and is definitely a better buy than a Swift for me ( if the outright acceleration ability is ignored ) any day. But it sells 3,800 while the Swift sells 15,000 odd.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

How about a complete feature comparison between these two?? I respect your preference w.r.t the two choices; the sales figures show that a whole lot of people in the segment see more value in the Figo than a Liva.

The same is the case with Figo vs Swift as well. But, Figo happens to be a more complete hatch than Swift any day. It's the peculiarity of the Indian market that is making Swift a winner. In no other country was it able to replicate this performance.

[GTO]

Mod Note : Please continue the Liva 1.5L TRD Sportivo Discussion in Our Official Review. Thanks

The Etios discussion may continue on its own Official Review Thread.

Thread closed.