[jeepbug]

Originally Posted by powertrain

Hello jeepbug,
First of all, let me admit the fact that I've not driven/owned a Thar or Gurkha. But I'm all set to plonk my money in a reliable, no-nonsense 4wd. I don't know if it'll be the Thar, Gurkha or the upcoming Tata 4wd. And I was eagerly anticipating the launch of the Gurkha. And I have to say that I'm not excatly happy.
Being a happy owner of Gurkha, I would like to ask you something.
-
- Dont you feel that you're be overcharged for what you get? no
For Eg - Mahindra launched a completely grounds-up Scorpio in 2002 with a 2.6L DI engine that produced 109 bhp @ around 6.5L, if my memory serves me correct.

I understand the fact that in the last 10-11 years, the cost have gone up significantly,but it's not as if FM has given us anything new. Apart from headlamps & dashboard,everything is pretty much the same. Refined,yes but nothing new.

Any one with a decent knowledge about automobiles will tell you that increasing the engine size to make more bhp is not the most efficient way to make power. Heck,if that's the case then why do the h** do we need turbo's. And the engineers at FM have done just that. And I'm pretty sure that the avg. figures of the new Gurkha will be lower that that of the old Gurkha or Thar.
Time will tell that

Would you call that new or improved?!

I understand that the Thar's not perfect & Mahindra has cut corners, but it's at least corners that can be set straight. Things like hard-top, seats,snorkel & diff. locks can be added/changed. Can we change the Gurkha's engine??!!
At least Mahindra / BD Sir has given a relatively modern mechanicals to work with.
I hope that I'm not asking for the moon but I truly believe that FM could have give us a CRDI hard top Gurkha @ 8.5L with snorkel/ diff locks as options. It could have satisfied a larger customer base.

Regards,
Varun

Will you buy a new Gurkha today? yes i will
please do the maths 11years ago 6.5 lack will make around 15 lacs if invested in an fdr atleast, that was a non 4x4 , no difflocks scorpio.no comparison,

what is new in scorpio except engines and cosmetic changes,

If thar is not perfect then its same for all 4x4 in India, IMHO you are just beating a rant, force products are any day better,sturdier,and more reliable than those from m and m , lineage matters!!

[Parm]

Originally Posted by jeepbug

Will you buy a new Gurkha today? yes i will
please do the maths 11years ago 6.5 lack will make around 15 lacs if invested in an fdr atleast, that was a non 4x4 , no difflocks scorpio.no comparison,

what is new in scorpio except engines and cosmetic changes,

If thar is not perfect then its same for all 4x4 in India, IMHO you are just beating a rant, force products are any day better,sturdier,and more reliable than those from m and m , lineage matters!!

Lets atleast give FML 6-12 months to come clear with the delivery, A.S.S. and any product performance issue it has.

Please remember the similar kind of bricks and bats for MM when Thar was launched!

Lets see how the product (Gurkha) performs and then fire all your guns. Agreed, that every one is free in this democratic country to come out with his/her comments on the Gurkha.

It has its plus and minus points which im sure FML will look into it and improve with the passage of time. MM did brought out the changes and the AC in upgraded version of Thar.

Im sure FML has done good job in re-launching the Gurkha, but it needs to gets its feedback from ground zero. FML does lack in having a person like DB or even offroad junkies in its boardroom!

Its a big challange for FML to take on MM and Thar, wait till TATA comes out with its 4x4 vehicle and that will put 3 players in the boxing ring!

Oh yes....Jeep Wrangler (SWB/LWB) with its 2.8 ltr diesel comes out this year a CBU, will wait to see how it fares in the price and equipment list compared to MM, TATA and FML vehicles!

Till then....Aayo Gurkhali!

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

For all the off roaders here, does it really matter that the Gurkha has 80bhp against an expected 100-120bhp? Is that much power required? I understand it makes a difference in highway cruising ofcourse..

For off roaders here, a stock ex-army MM550 XD will do every thing Gurkha for about 1/3rd the price. The advantage Gurkha offers is to be able to do all this stuff and still be comfortable and also have a single vehicle which you can use for cruising also. The biggest draw back of the Gurkha off-road is it's poor power to weight ratio. In my opinion, Force should have addressed this issue. I don't think the Thar CRDe would have become such a hit with a 70 bhp engine. For all the Thar CRDe's flaws, sheer power is worth having..

[codelust]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

For off roaders here, a stock ex-army MM550 XD will do every thing Gurkha for about 1/3rd the price. The advantage Gurkha offers is to be able to do all this stuff and still be comfortable and also have a single vehicle which you can use for cruising also. The biggest draw back of the Gurkha off-road is it's poor power to weight ratio. In my opinion, Force should have addressed this issue. I don't think the Thar CRDe would have become such a hit with a 70 bhp engine. For all the Thar CRDe's flaws, sheer power is worth having..

The power-to-weight ratio is a much bigger problem than anything else, what offroaders want is a much lesser problem. Let me try to elaborate on it from a a manufacturer's perspective.

1. Market size: I had done this little exercise a while ago to check out the potential market size for a vehicle that will be aimed more towards the OTR crowd - let us call it the Dream OTR Vehicle (DOTRV). Let us assume, for the sake of convenience, that there are 20-locations in India with an average of 300 people per location who are willing to buy the DOTRV. That still tops out at 6000 vehicles that can be sold at a complete monopoly.

Even if you assume an outlandish churn rate of 2-years for a new vehicle, the market tops out at 3000 vehicles a year. The the rosiest scenario for the DOTRV and it does not make sense for the manufacturer.

2. Kit level: The hardcore OTR crowd don't seem to retain a vehicle for more than 2-years most of the time. The steady traffic of CJxx and 5xxs passing through the classifieds section bears proof of this. This is a tough group to satisfy with anything that comes out of the factory. You cannot beat the value proposition offered by a rebuilt 550 at 4L, to a brand new vehicle in excess of 7L. What you gain and lose with each are different things. It is actually a pointless comparison, one that a manufacturer will only lose badly, trying to square up.

So, as a manufacturer, I will not look to sell to this group. The upside is fairly limited even in the best case scenario and the downside is tremendous, primarily to my brand and in cost if I bring out an all-new vehicle that will only sell 6K units in 2-years.

That being the case, I'll be glad to target the aspiring group (or 'yuppies' as they are fondly referred to) and hopefully also have enough meat in the platform for customers who are willing to go the extra mile to make it a good OTR machine.

[Monster_BHP]

The guys running Force motors are as STUPID as they come. I had a Gurkha and they did not even know how to fix their own SUV for months.

The new gurkhas plastic bumper has ruined the Gurkahs G-wagon Heritage and the approach angle is also ruined because of the low slung build of the shitty bumper.

I dont care if they those idiots made a 1000BHP engine and straped it on, they still will ruin it with their Know nothing attitude.
You never expect these idiots to ever grow up and follow their own USP.

[apachelongbow]

Force motors is destroying their own hard work due to sheer laziness and careless attidude from their dealers. I wonder if the dealers sell any vehicles at all. Force One is a decent offering at a fair price, not withstanding small grouses like plastic quality etc, seems pretty well screwed together, but no sales simply because the dealers seem to be products of Hindustan motors factory, like the Ambassador. I believe even the Gurkha, if its a decent product wont sell simply because of their outstanding dealers.

[Ironhide]

Slightly OT but since we are talking about Gurkhas, here's where the name came from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUQFGFHTUrQ

(Video Courtesy youtube)

Cheers !

[Manuuj]

I think the Gurkha has potential. Even despite the horror stories of Force Motors that are common knowledge on this Forum i feel very tempted to go in for one. I like Suv's and have always admired the Gurkha from a safe distance.

I have even been to the "Dealers" of Force Motors on two occasions. The first time was in 2003 and the staff at their Jhandewalan Showroom were actually, truly, undoubtely all in the middle of a seista and none to pleased at me disturbing their ritual. When i asked for a Gurkha brouchure i was handed one for the Trax as it was the only one available. I left my number but never heard from then again. I bought a Qualis instead and 10 years later with 200,000 kms on the clock its still going strong.

The second time was a brand new showroom in Faridabad on the Mathura Road in 2012 and they categorically denied the existence of anything called a Gurkha in their stable. I did get a call back a few days later though asking if i was interested in seeing this fabled monster.

In any case i feel Force Motors can do a lot better if they apply themselves.

Ofcourse the pics of the launch vehicles seems to suggest that the perceive the Gurkha to be a star in some upcoming Disney/Pixar movie.

All they have to do is go back to the basics. High GV, Metal bumpers, good robust engine, some modern convienences, improved aftersales service and some sort of marketing campaign will go a long way in luring customers. Of course the increased excise on SUV's in the 2013 budget isnt going to help matters at all.

For me the gurkha will not be choice made from the head but rather a foolish one made from the heart. It would be a vehicle that would serve as the platform for vast cosmetic interior and exterior modifications to bring it closer to its G-Wagen DNA.

In the past few days i have come back to this thread a number of times and seen numerous videos of the gurkha in action. I have downloaded many pics of the G-wagen also. I know very well that it may be a huge headache and a mistake to go in for the Gurkha.

I have a feeling that is exactly what i will be doing very soon.

[predatorwheelz]

Originally Posted by Manuuj

I have even been to the "Dealers" of Force Motors on two occasions. The first time was in 2003 and the staff at their Jhandewalan Showroom were actually, truly, undoubtely all in the middle of a seista and none to pleased at me disturbing their ritual. When i asked for a Gurkha brouchure i was handed one for the Trax as it was the only one available. I left my number but never heard from then again. I bought a Qualis instead and 10 years later with 200,000 kms on the clock its still going strong.

The second time was a brand new showroom in Faridabad on the Mathura Road in 2012 and they categorically denied the existence of anything called a Gurkha in their stable. I did get a call back a few days later though asking if i was interested in seeing this fabled monster.

You might be in for a better dealer experience this time. Read my earlier post.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3044192

[Manuuj]

Originally Posted by predatorwheelz

You might be in for a better dealer experience this time. Read my earlier post.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3044192

The experience surely was better yesterday when i went to the Force Motors showroom at Rama Road. The staff seemed informed and helpful. Sadly the vehicle was not there but shall be available in mid-March sometime.

Only the BS-III version is out now and cannot be registered within a 150 km radius of metros. That is a real tun off though. I guess i shall have to wait awhile before the BS-IV or BS-V version is launched.

[jeepbug]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Really. Then what is all this celebration in aide if?

apart from the differential locks, what skill and experience does Force Motors have in off road capable vehicles?

The basic traits of 4x4, ground clearance, and diff locks will take any vehicle pretty far, but beyond that there is a great variety of off road capabilities that come from the expertise of the manufacturer. I don't see that Force Motors has any.

I see no reason to expect that the Gukha is better off road than, say a Bolero or a thar or a scorpio, except so far as the the difference the diff locks makes.

I've just lost all interest.

I'll get ARB lockers for my SFX.

@Harbir,
Please do offroading in a bolero 4x4,thar 4x4 and scorpio 4x4, and Gurkha with difflocks , then we will talk till then please refrain from negative comments your SFX is not an Indian vehicle so keep it out of disscussion but for your info it has a central difflock besides having it if you stilll need arb crap i really doubt your skills , just hone them then your interest in the right vehicle will rekindle.

for information from a very reliable source a friend who works in force motors the gama 4x4 is also on the cards and can see the light of the day in 6 months time but it will be without difflocks.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by jeepbug

but for your info it has a central difflock besides having it if you stilll need arb crap i really doubt your skills , just hone them then your interest in the right vehicle will rekindle.

Um, locking the central diff lock on Pajero will only make it equal to a regular part-time 4x4 in 4WD mode. Ok, it has rear LSD, so it is same as Safari 4WD when in 4WD mode.

The center differential has only one purpose. It allows you to drive in 4WD on highway. But when you get into offroad trail, the center diff has to be locked. If not, a single wheel losing traction can get you stuck despite you being in 4WD.

The manual diff locks on front and rear diff in Gurkha can only be matched in SFX using stuff like ARB diff locks.

[apachelongbow]

Any information on the Force One 4x4? It looked butch and big with the higher profile tyres and all in the auto expo.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Really. Then what is all this celebration in aide if?

apart from the differential locks, what skill and experience does Force Motors have in off road capable vehicles?

I see no reason to expect that the Gukha is better off road than, say a Bolero or a thar or a scorpio, except so far as the the difference the diff locks makes.
.

I have MLD (Mechanical Locking Differential) on my Scorpio mHawk 4WD and it is also a direct fit to Thar and has added a lot of capabilities even without switching to the 4WD mode.

There's a lot of things the Scorpio/Thar platform can do without batting an eyelid, without any momentum needed, just by the sheer power/torque.

Originally Posted by jeepbug

@Harbir,
your SFX is not an Indian vehicle so keep it out of disscussion but for your info it has a central difflock besides having it if you stilll need arb crap i really doubt your skills , just hone them then your interest in the right vehicle will rekindle.
.

The presence of center differential only ensured that when you have the center diff open, it allows you to run freely with difference of rotating speeds on front vs rear axles. In other words, it becomes almost like an AWD that can be driven a bit faster on slippery roads.

But if any one wheel slips with the center diff open, all the engine power will go to that wheel and the vehicle wont move.

Now with the center diff closed, its as good as a part-time 4x4 like the Safari/Scorpio/Thar. Center Diff does not help offroading.

And this G-Wagen connection of the Gurkha is a little too primitive now.

[Manuuj]

So in my naivety i landed up at the Rama Road showroom today with a camera in hand fully expecting to see the Gurkha parked in the showroom as promised at the beginning of the month.

The slightly sheepish sales executive informed me with an embarrassed smile that it had not arrived yet and was expected "anytime next week" and that he would call me if and when it did arrive.

Then i realized maybe this was part of some psychological game that Force Motors was playing. Make it so difficult for a customer to even see a vehicle that it would weed out the ones who expect too much from them as a company. Leaving behind the few who will only be grateful at being allowed to own the vehicle and therefore would take shoddy service and quality in their stride.

I do think i need to see a psychologist though as I have a feeling i shall be turning up again at the showroom "anytime next week" as soon as i get a call from them.

Let the mind games begin!