[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ Shell V Power is not 99 octane, it is same octane as their unleaded petrol. But I have read somewhere that any premium petrol, not necessarily Shell, does not contain ethanol as of now.

I can only speak for the Netherlands at the moment, so you need to get the Indian specifics from somewhere else. Whereas all of the EU has had mandatory E5 fuel, (max 5% ethanol), it is now switching to E10 with a max of 10% ethanol.

in practice this applies for petrol station with more than one pump. Which effectively has meant just about all regular 95 fuels now are E10 compliant. As E10 can cause significant problems on older vehicle, the special fuels have come on the radar for many owners. Whereas in the EU Vpower is an E5 fuel, Shell guarantees no ethanol in it. Same with BP Ultimate. Both are 98 E5 fuels, but contain no ethanol. The ethanol percentage is only a maximum.

So all of a sudden these two 98 fuels have become very popular! Guess what I put in my three classic cars? None of them require 98, but all of them require low, preferably no ethanol!

Jeroen

[antz.bin]

India has been on E10 for a few years now (at least 3-4 yrs as far as I can remember). I clearly remember a flat 10% drop in my tank range the day that happened. It was as if my 2009 Bajaj Pulsar 220 had rejected the 10% Ethanol completely and was running only on the remaining 90% Octane.

Has anyone else faced something like this?

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I can only speak for the Netherlands at the moment, so you need to get the Indian specifics from somewhere else.

Shell V Power RON in India is the same as their normal unleaded fuel, the difference between the two (as claimed) being some additives/detergents/friction modifiers. The price difference between the two was about INR 2 per litre some years ago, but slightly above INR 8 now. I am a regular user of this fuel and recently wrote to their customer care requesting a justification for this much difference, citing the normal/premium price differential of other brands in India which is is still around INR 2 only. I am awaiting their response.

As for ethanol blending, it was announced almost a decade ago (5%). But I am unsure if it is being blended regularly, and if so uniformly throughout the country. My bike is 20 years old and car 10 years old. Neither have faced any issues so far, whereas I have heard ethanol turns to water and settles at the bottom of the tank if not used quickly. My car is taken out only during weekends and runs for about 40 KM (around 200 km a month). I top up once every 30-40 days when the fuel reaches the half tank mark. This has not caused any issues so far.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I can only speak for the Netherlands at the moment, so you need to get the Indian specifics from somewhere else. Whereas all of the EU has had mandatory E5 fuel, (max 5% ethanol), it is now switching to E10 with a max of 10% ethanol.

So all of a sudden these two 98 fuels have become very popular! Guess what I put in my three classic cars? None of them require 98, but all of them require low, preferably no ethanol!

Jeroen

Dont you need Leaded Fuel for the old cars?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Gansan

My bike is 20 years old and car 10 years old. Neither have faced any issues so far, whereas I have heard ethanol turns to water and settles at the bottom of the tank if not used quickly. My car is taken out only during weekends and runs for about 40 KM (around 200 km a month). I top up once every 30-40 days when the fuel reaches the half tank mark. This has not caused any issues so far.

In the EU all manufacturers have produced data on which of their cars will do fine on E10. By and large, up to twenty years most cars seem to be ok. At least in theory.

It is all down to what materials were used in the various components in the fuel system. Anything well over twenty / thirty years is going to be a major issue. If a fuel system was never designed to handle relative high Ethanol percentage it is most likely not going to cope very well. Check out the various classic car forums or the classic car magazines of the last 12 months. Big problems for lots of owners.

There are additives that counter the ethanol effect. It is still debatable to what extend they really work. The simples and most effective way is to get Ethanol free fuel, such a Shell Power or BP Ultiimate. It is usually Euro 0,15-20 more expensive than the Euro 95 E10 variant. But that is a small price to pay. Certainly given the fact that most classic cars only get driven a couple of thousand kilometers a year.

Jeroen

[caffeineAM]

Originally Posted by Gansan

I have heard ethanol turns to water and settles at the bottom of the tank if not used quickly

Ethanol does not turn to water. It is hygroscopic, i.e. it absorbs water from the air. I don't know if 10% ethanol will face this problem though.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Dont you need Leaded Fuel for the old cars?

Depends, but there are no fuels on the market that contain lead. So this is a separate issue from Ethanol.

Classic car owners tend to deal in one of three ways in dealing with the need for lead.

First you need to establish whether your car’s engine could run without lead. For instance, both my classic cars, Mercedes W123 and Alfa Romeo Spider run fine without lead. Not a problem at all.

If you drive really low mileage, you could choose not to do anything. Lack of lead will wear down your valve a little faster. So you might have to check and adjust your valves a little more often. And of course, they will need replacing earlier oo. But if you drive only a 1000 km a year you could be fine for decades to come. Or until your engine is up for major overhaul anyway, see below.

Some ownesr choose to add a lead additive to their fuel. Over the years this has proved to be quite effective.

Other owners choose to modify the head and valves. Usually it means new valve seats and valves and then your engine will run on lead without any problems. This is the most expensive solution. But it is a one off, you pay once and you never worry about it again. And of course, on many classic cars replacing valve seats and valves is a relatively straight forward job. On many classic cars the engine at some point will require overhauling and most will do the seats and valve at the same time

If you search the classic car advertisement you will often see it mentioned that the engine has been converted to run on unleaded petrol.

Jeroen

[Dr.Vikas]

Hi all,

I want to draw your kind attention to the E20 fuel policy that has been proposed by the Central Govt.

The Ministry of Road Transport and Highways has published a draft notification GSR 757(E) dated 11th December 2020, seeking comments from the public for adoption of E20 fuel, i.e, blend of 20% of ethanol with gasoline, as an automotive fuel and for the adoption of mass emission standards for this fuel.

So, the Central Govt seems eager to introduce the supply of 20% Ethanol blended Motor Spirit sooner or later.

Now my question is which of the current petrol vehicles are compatible with taking on such change in the fuel quality from E10 to E20 ?

e.g. BMW engines are compatible with E25 (25% Ethanol blended) petrol also.

Also some valuable inputs from our fellow members are most important and would be convincing for all petrol car owners/ lovers here.
Thanks,

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIfram...32ua8.whatsapp

[psankar]

There are news reports of quarrels happening between vehicle owners and petrol bunks as vehicles owners are facing jerks or other problems due to adulterated fuel. Now Tamil Nadu Petroleum Dealers Association have put the blame on Ethanol mixing in the fuel, as responsible for these problems and asked customers to not blame the fuel station. There are even banners kept in some fuel stations explaining the same.

May be the Government is doing this as a last resort, instead of reducing taxes, as the fuel prices keep climbing high ?

Any good links that explain the effect of ethanol + fuel on engine's longevity and performance ? Do private companies like shell also do this ?

Some news links on the same issue:
https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le33850317.ece

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/80919087.cms

Mods, please merge with appropriate thread.

[Jeroen]

So called E10 fuel became mandatory in Europe in 2018 I believe. And it has been around in many other parts of the world even longer, e.g. some American States.

E10 means that the petrol can have a maximum ethanol percentage of 10%. (it could be less too). The introduction of ethanol to fuel around the world is done purely for environmental reasons, nothing else.

The biggest problem with high ethanol content fuel is that some cars, especially older cars simply are not prepared for it. So it is a big concern if you have a classic car, or anything over 20-25 years old.

Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means that it absorbs water from the atmosphere. And that water, in turn, finds its way into your car. It can lead to condensation in fuel tanks, fuel lines and carburettors and cause corrosion in brass, copper, lead, tin and zinc components.

From an UK article which explains it well:

Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means that it absorbs water from the atmosphere. And that water, in turn, finds its way into your car. It can lead to condensation in fuel tanks, fuel lines and carburettors and cause corrosion in brass, copper, lead, tin and zinc components.

As ethanol is also a solvent it can eat through rubber, plastic and fibreglass, so hoses and seals are likely to perish more quickly because of the higher concentration of ethanol in E10. In Department for Transport tests, problems identified included degradation to fuel hoses and seals, blocked fuel filters, damaged fuel pumps, corroded carbs, blocked injectors and corrosion in fuel tanks. Rubber is particularly affected. The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) has a list of ethanol-friendly materials that can be used as replacements.

Finally, ethanol isn’t as energy dense as petrol, which means that the fuel-air mix could be leaner and, ironically, fuel consumption could actually be slightly higher than using E5 or ‘pure’ petrol.

Whether fuel sitting in a petrol bunk would be affected remains to be seen as far as I know. The petrol bunk itself needs to suitable for high ethanol content fuel, for the same reasons as above, obviously.

The absorption of water by the ethanol is a very gradual process. Which also means that as long as there is a reasonable turn over of fuel in the bunker, or in your tank, for that matter, I would be surprised to see any effects.

What is true is that ethanol based fuel or more susceptible to water contamination. So even more due care and attention needs to be paid to proper sealing of the bunker and your tank.

So the problem can occur at both the bunker as well as your tank. I am not sure how individual drivers are supposed to check the fuel is uncontaminated. Taking a sample from the nozzle is not useful. It needs to check in a lab, or you need to leave it standing overnight in a cup, see if any water materialises.

In most of Europe E5 and non-ethanol based fuel is still readily available too. All car manufacturers produce list of which cars/models from which years can run on E10.

I keep the tanks of my three classics filled with non-enthanol fuel only. I am just not taking chances.

Jeroen

[tchsvy]

Originally Posted by psankar

Any good links that explain the effect of ethanol + fuel on engine's longevity and performance ?

I guess this depends on the vehicle,
I have found this in my CBR 250's user manual.

[saikarthik]

As per me, it is a farce. The dealers are shifting the blame on some technical reason for the lack of competence to establish a root cause or the ability to be open for an investigation.

Ethanol blends were thoroughly researched before mandated in few countries. Generally classified as Exx or flex-fuel, it is blend of anhydrous or hydrous ethanol. Brazil in my knowledge mandated E22 decade(s) back. The calorific value and combustion properties are similar but not same to gasoline, but not much in low level of blends. In higher levels, there are some calibrations on engine maps to adapt and I don't know if there are mechanical design changes.

[srvm]

Recently, Union Minister for Road Transport & Highways Shri Nitin Gadkari proposed higher blending of ethanol (about 20%) with petrol (link)


One BHPian had started a thread few years ago on E10 fuel causing misfiring. Link (Tata Zest Revotron misfiring. Is E10 fuel the culprit?)

I hope these new gen fuels are compatible with older engines or at least owners of such cars get a choice to fill E10 or ethanol-free petrol in some petrol bunks.

[Durango Dude]

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...ol-fuel-421021


Man can't drink and drive but car's can! Car's are drinking beer now will slowly graduate to single malts in the coming years and then what Absolut(e) Alcohol?? The car companies and the service centers will laugh all the way to the bank in 2023, I think!

[AutoNoob]

At 7.2%, India blends record ethanol with petrol in first 4 months

Date: April 5, 2021
Source: Business Standard

Ethanol blending in India has reached more than 7.2 per cent — the first time it has reached this level — in the first four months of the ethanol supply year 2020-21 (December to November), putting the country on course to meet the target of 10 per cent blending by 2022.

According to industry sources, if oil-marketing companies (OMCs) lift the ethanol they had contracted for, in the next few months all-India average blending could be even near 8 per cent by the time the season ends in November. So far, the best ever ethanol blend with petrol has been around 5.2 per cent at all-India level.

India Moves Forward Target Of 20% Ethanol-Blending In Petrol By 5 Years

Date:January 27, 2021
Source: Bloomberg Quint

India has preponed the target of achieving 20% ethanol-blending with petrol by five years to 2025 as it looks to cut dependence on costly oil imports, Oil Minister Dharmendra Pradhan said on Wednesday.

"In 2014, less than 1% ethanol was being blended with petrol against the target of 5%. In the last sugar year, this ratio has reached 8.5% and next year it is 10%," he said at FIPI award function here.

Last year the government had set a target of reaching 10% ethanol-blending by 2022 (10% of ethanol mixed with 90% of petrol) - and 20% by 2030. "But now the 20% target has been advanced to 2024-25," he said.

Such sudden (unmindful ??) policy changes affect the development plans of all the manufacturers. So much for the 'Ease of Doing Business'.

And even after this, we'll be paying price of 100% petrol.