[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by GTO

And on your comment for European cars, the VW CEO himself will disagree with you. He's known to consider Hyundai as strong a competitor as Toyota (and that's saying a lot!). Look up his words online.

You might want to read in what context the statement was made. It was when Toyota was struggling with recalls.
http://www.gjermundsen.no/VW-s-great...a-it-s-Hyundai
The same article also mentions this "Hyundai has enjoyed enormous growth in sales and profitability in recent years. Toyota should not be forgotten but Hyundai is a very serious rival...""

In anycase I already mentioned that Hyundai is no longer dismissed but is considered to be a threat by the big one's.

Originally Posted by GTO

In the USA, Hyundai is selling all it can build, and is extremely constrained by production (read = no one expected their sales to rise so high). Not only that, they are completely cutting back on cheap fleet sales and have the lowest inventory levels of mass market manufacturers. In the last 10 years, Hyundai has become the No.2 foreign car maker in USA (from pretty much a position at the bottom of the pile). September 2012 was a record month for Hyundai.

Here are the top 20 best selling cars in US for the month of October. Do you see any sign of Japanese struggling? The much improved Hyundai's are still at 9 and 10 place with Sonata sales down 7.8 percent!
Also look at the total sales where only 3 manufacturers have registered negative growth, Nissan, Hyundai and Jeep!
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/11...-rankings.html

Not to mention they are also in the middle of class action law suit for overstating MPG figures
http://wbponline.com/Articles/View/9796

Originally Posted by GTO

You clearly have a thing against Hyundai. No offence, but I think your perspective needs an update. Fact is, the world is changing and Hyundai is now a super-power in the automotive world. Don't take my word for it, just refer to hard numbers or ask Hyundai's competitors

Infact none at all. They have done everything right in India right from the Santro Zip drive days when only 'big' cars used to come with power steering and they continue to do so. But I find it big talk when a company focused on increasing its market share (5 year warranty in Europe, overstating fuel efficiency figures) suddenly comes out and says they want to increase focus on quality rather than quantity. What do you take out of this? The Japanese have been doing it for eon's now and Hyundai themselves are the best example of doing the same in India. So what changed now?

Originally Posted by GTO

After having tested the i20 over 4 days, I completely disagree. The i20 is one of the best-engineered hatchbacks in India. Refer to my official review for more details.

I have not driven the new one but the old one had the worst power steering set up of any small car I have driven and the suspension was clunky but never the less I was impressed with the chassis solidity and general build quality. Primarily the reason why I said, they lack the finesse. The final mile that is the difference between a really good product and great.

Originally Posted by GTO

The rattling steering & air-con were both fixed in recalls. That's a lot better than the Europeans that suffer from either one or a combination of the following : Niggles, breakdowns, shoddy interiors, poor fit & finish, awful ergonomics, under-powered and / or 3-cylinder diesels etc. Breakdowns are more common with the Europeans and that's certainly "more serious" an issue than a rattling steering wheel.

Truth is, Hyundai's reliability is easily on par with the Japanese today.

First things first, it was not an official recall even though Hyundai clearly knew it was an issue. Secondly, it didnt fix the issue. There are numerous threads on tbhp itself where owners have complained of the issue reappearing with in a few months.
Lastly, I have never said Europeans are the paragons of reliability infact far from it. My only benchmark for reliability remain the Japanese and they still rule the roost and we may agree to disagree on it. They may be on par, but that's not good enough if you want to beat Japanese at their own game.

Originally Posted by GTO

I don't think you understand Hyundai's positioning : They are NOT targeting those wanting razor-sharp handling. The mass market cares two hoots about handling & high speed behaviour. Hyundai is clearly giving the market what it wants with cars that are great looking, easy to drive, high on quality, reliable, spacious and loaded with equipment. Clearly, Hyundai's performance in international markets indicates the successful positioning is hardly limited to Indian customers only.

In the same breath, VW has 23.3 percent of the European market and clearly people prefer handling, build quality, solidity over equipment list and price? The point is people have certain expectations while buying a car. So lets get one thing out of the way that people will buy a below average product. If Hyundai is making above average cars, they will sell doesn't matter how good or bad their car's are to drive because as they say, there is a market for everyone.

I am not undermining Hyundai success recently but the fact that we are reading a little too much into it. Its still early days.

Originally Posted by GTO

A car that is superior at <100 kph in the city (90% of our time) is a far better choice than one that's competent only at 120 kph (<10% of driving time). As I stated earlier, I'd rather drive the Sunny around in Mumbai than the heavy C220.

Thats hardly apples to apples comparison. What if it was between Car A and Car B? Same price, same reliability and same equipment? A car with slightly heavier steering is not impossible to drive in the city, infact if you were to ask me, I like to be in control even while I am driving with in the city. So even though Santro was far easier to drive and live with in the city, I would still prefer driving my Palio simple because I felt safer and more in control.

Originally Posted by GTO

Even as an enthusiast, I'll tell you this : I would buy an i20 diesel over a Polo, Fabia or Punto. Look up my Nissan Sunny thread and you'll see that the European hatchbacks weren't even on the consideration list. If that's the situation for an enthusiast, who's going to argue with the masses??!!

What if Polo came with 1.5 liter diesel engine as rumored? As a prospective buyer I will have to deal with the same question very soon. As a product, there isn't one single benefit that i20 gives me over it rivals barring interior quality and I have to pay a price for it but then thats not to say others are horrible. Infact, the latest gen Hyundai is absolutely pounded by a last gen Ford hatchback when it comes to driving pleasure and not to mention almost a decade old Punto. And unlike i20 they don't have any serious shortcoming and its especially true for the Figo.

P.S. The mere mention of a bigger engine in the Polo has everyone salivating including yourselves
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post2963962

Originally Posted by GTO

Not going to take this thread off-topic by discussing Samsung / Android any further. Suffice to say, they've taken the world by Storme and have won many fans (yours truly included).

This comes from someone who has just bought a Galaxy S3 with high hopes
Lets take it on the Android thread.

[Ford5]

It was in the 80's that the current president of south korea & ex ceo of Hyundai- lee myung bak stormed into one of the factories in Korea & pulled up the workers for shoddy build of the cars.

Toyota was their target and they used it as a benchmark for scaling up. In terms of quality and only quality.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You might want to read in what context the statement was made. It was when Toyota was struggling with recalls.

Everyone knows that Toyota's recall issues are temporary, and the Japanese giant isn't going to suffer with them for life.

VW has frequently made that statement independent of recalls. And quite honestly, if VW didn't, it probably wasn't looking outside of the office walls.

Hyundai has enjoyed enormous growth in sales and profitability in recent years. Toyota should not be forgotten but Hyundai is a very serious rival...

In anycase I already mentioned that Hyundai is no longer dismissed but is considered to be a threat by the big one's.

The much improved Hyundai's are still at 9 and 10 place with Sonata sales down 7.8 percent!

Did it ever occur to you that Hyundai was NEVER on any top 10 list a decade back? From a nobody, Hyundai has shot up to the top 10 list. That's akin to HRT scoring points consistently in GPs, or the Skoda Fabia suddenly becoming a top 10 seller in India.

If someone dropped from 1 to 10, that's a shame. But if a brand like Hyundai (a nobody a few years back) enters the Top 10 and stays there, that is a huge achievement. To put things in perspective, here's their USA marketshare over the last decade.





Speaking of VW, do keep in mind that Hyundai sells nearly double that of VW in the States, despite VW having a multi-decade lead in terms of brand recognition, history of making cars and entry into the USA market. By the time VW was already established, Hyundai was new on the scene and was considered r-u-b-b-i-s-h. My sister owned a first-gen Excel so I can tell you it was really rubbish.

Also look at the total sales where only 3 manufacturers have registered negative growth, Nissan, Hyundai and Jeep!

Suggest you take a wider view of matters, rather than focussing on a single month. If Swift sales drop in 1 - 2 months, that still doesn't take away from the fact that it's a H-O-T car in India. Just as Hyundai is the brand to watch out for. Please refer to the historical growth charts above.

Also, Hyundai's drop in a month is hardly because of lack of demand. It's lack of supplies! Look up their production numbers & wafer-thin inventories. They just didn't expect the USA market to recover so fast.

Not to mention they are also in the middle of class action law suit for overstating MPG figures

Unethical, no doubt. I don't think anyone here is blindly supporting Hyundai. The person you are debating with is far from a Hyundai fanboy.

What do you take out of this?

My take? There is some truth in the statement. Adding another 2 - 4 million units of capacity isn't easy, as there is always the possibility of losing quality levels. Pretty obvious when you see what Toyota's massive expansion did to its previously blemish-free record of reliability.

They were evidently not ready for this kind of demand, as Hyundai's growth has outpaced their own projections. Hyundai simply weren't prepared....similar situation with the Verna in India. From their inventory levels (lowest in the industry), they simply cannot make enough cars to meet the demand (which is a nice situation to be in, BTW, rather than the other way around). Embarrassing for the management too.

Hyundai isn't the first to make this statement either. Others also have (including, but not limited to the car industry). Mass scale production isn't exactly a walk in the park.

I have not driven the new one but the old one had the worst power steering set up of any small car I have driven and the suspension was clunky but never the less I was impressed with the chassis solidity and general build quality. Primarily the reason why I said, they lack the finesse. The final mile that is the difference between a really good product and great.

Well, that light steering is one of the reasons behind the i20's success. I actually love a steering like that in the city. Clunky suspension? Sure. Which car doesn't have flaws? Do you know of a perfect car? With the i20, the pros far, far outweigh the cons. Give me a clunky suspension over a 3-cylinder motor any which day.

And yes, I do consider the i20 to be a "great" product.

Secondly, it didnt fix the issue.

The air-con for sure is fixed. I can tell you that after testing the i20 1.2.

My only benchmark for reliability remain the Japanese and they still rule the roost and we may agree to disagree on it. They may be on par, but that's not good enough if you want to beat Japanese at their own game.

I see enough trouble-free, niggle-free Hyundais with over 100,000 kms on the forum & off it to make an informed opinion. In the Team-BHP ownership review section, Hyundai's reliability has been consistently rated between good to excellent for most of their cars. Of course, there are some exceptions like the Accent crdi mill, i20 rattling steering (which you say isn't solved), some Santro motors ending up with defective crankshafts, but they are far and few between. Toyota & Honda have had an equal number of problems (remember the City's engine repairs?).

VW has 23.3 percent of the European market

Of course yes! VW is the K-I-N-G of Europe. But that shouldn't take anything away from Hyundai which, just like it is in the USA, is gaining market share in Europe too. Hyundai has 5% of Europe too....from pretty much <1% only 10 years back. Look it up, you'll be amazed at their progress.

So lets get one thing out of the way that people will buy a below average product.

While I agree with you that people will buy below average products, I will state that Hyundai's products (especially the hatchbacks and some sedans) fall in the "good" category.

All of their products are premium-priced now (who would have thought!!). People will never pay premium money for below-average products.

Lastly, there is the matter of tastes & preferences : What most people consider good, you consider below average. Not to forget, vice versa too!

Thats hardly apples to apples comparison. What if it was between Car A and Car B?

I compared the characteristics of the two cars I own, not the cars themselves. I'll make it clearer : I am part of the 99% that prefers an i20 (excellent ergonomics, light steering, light clutch, light gearbox, short turning radius) to a car like the Punto (heavy steering, sub-par gearshift, long clutch, messed up ergonomics) to drive within the city.

What if Polo came with 1.5 liter diesel engine as rumored?

Everyone knows how much I love the Vento TDI! A Polo 1.6 TDI is at the top of my list (even before being launched)!!! Our discussion, however, has to be as things stand today. Fact is, the Polo has a lousy powerplant.

Infact, the latest gen Hyundai is absolutely pounded by a last gen Ford hatchback when it comes to driving pleasure and not to mention almost a decade old Punto.

And all of them are pounded by the Swift ZDi with upgraded rubber. If you are looking at driving pleasure, don't look beyond the Swift. The agility, direct steering, super ride & handling will blow you away. A rare mass market car that's also awesome looking, fun-to-drive and faster than the Figo & Punto. The only better hatchback could be that Polo 1.6L everyone is talking about.

This comes from someone who has just bought a Galaxy S3 with high hopes

Hahaha! That's great to hear. Hope the phone & software serve you well.

[ra'ul M]

We had an Accent in the family. In fact we still do although no one likes it.
I am or perhaps was a big time Hyundai hater for making a car that bad to drive. But, my own quibbles aside the fact is that you can't make a perfect car from the get go and Hyundai are getting there.
I have driven the Veloster coupe in Australia and let me tell you that aside for the weird 3 door configuration, it absolutely blows the competition in the hot hatch segment on all counts.
They played their cards right. They started with something that was looked horrible but was VFM, then something that looked good, loaded to the gills and VFM, and are finally getting to the point where they will make a car that drives well too!

So from being a hater, I have come to a point where if I was to put my money on a company which will make a car that's loaded to the gills, looks chic and rides well and at the same time is VFM and comes with best in class warranty and reliability it has to be Hyundai.

P.S.- I still hate the design and service department at the other Korean being discussed. In fact, they should be the ones learning from Hyundai!!

[arunphilip]

It is reassuring to see Hyundai reaffirming their commitment to quality. The wording of their statement is odd, because they don't need to 'focus' on quality - they're already there!

Hyundai merely need to sustain it, but then again, we've not seen any signs of it slipping. In fact, reading any review of a Hyundai since the i10 was launched, one will inevitably see a statement that briefly summarizes the part/fit quality as 'its excellent, as is typical of Hyundai' and then move on to other matters. This is irrespective of the price point of the car in question - from the Eon to the Elantra, and shows how reviewers take Hyundai's quality as a given.

I own a 2006 Getz that I bought pre-owned in 2011, and even for that generation of car, it feels solid inside, with no panel rattles. Frankly, I do not expect the interiors of my EcoSport to hold out as well after 7 years.

[shashank.nk]

Over the last 2 years i've taken numerous TD's of the i20 and Verna. I never found them to be lacking in quality (used a Polo as benchmark) the TD cars had held up well despite all the abuse, so I don't know what they mean by improving on quality,they're very good already. It also seems that the Verna's suspension has been re-worked, it clearly isn't as bad as before and the handling even at triple digit speeds is far more reassuring (comparisons again are Polo and Skoda Octavia), Its still not in the league of euros yes, but the improvement,atleast to me, is noticeable.

Of course, where they trump most other diesel cars is the refinement, at triple digit speeds few can rightly guess its an oil burner under the hood. Like others, over the last few years my respect for Hyundai has increased though i'm still a Euro fan. It may change over the years if they improve handling since they already score high on reliability.