[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

Best to buy is COCO (Company Owned & Company Operated) at morning.

Hello Modified Sachin,

Thank you for detailed explantion. It definitely adds value to this thread & forum in general.

Also regarding your suggestion, to fill from COCO at morning - it is true that if we fill the fuel in morning, we get a little more fuel then filling in evening?

Thanks,

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Also regarding your suggestion, to fill from COCO at morning - it is true that if we fill the fuel in morning, we get a little more fuel then filling in evening?

From what I have understood.

The temperature of the fuel in the underground tanks has gone down in the entire night. The dust & other material is settled down for a long period. So you get more dirt free fuel at a much lower temperature than in evening, as evenings are much cooler but underground tanks are heated for the entire afternoon so they take time to cool down.

Now as you know things expand as their temperature goes up (Water is only opposite known to me), so even our fuel expands and when expanded, you get lesser fuel (Energy) for 1Liter of volume.

Confused?? the price of fuel is 7X.xx for a 1 Liter of fuel @ 25 degree C
In developed countries we have temperature compensation to compensate the temperature effect with the volume measured.

When it stays in your car tank for the entire night the total fuel settled is less than was measured.

Though the difference is very small for 5 liters say max 500mL (APP not sure), but in my opinion the main reason is the fuel is stable for the entire night & you don't get the dirt of the tank mixed in the fuel.

Originally Posted by simplyself

As far as I know, companies allow a 4 % evaporation losses ( presumed to occur while dispensing).

Correct its 4% of evaporation allowed at dealer end & oil company (i.e. IOCL, BPCL or HPCL) does not charge for this fix calculations. So dealer is not bearing the evaporation cost.

Originally Posted by simplyself

Where does the evaporated petrol from tanker/underground tanker go? No where.

In many countries Vapor Recovery systems are in place. They suck the fuel vapors from vehicles tank, allow them to decant & after that they are passed back to underground fuel tank.

Its actually stealing a fuel from customer & taking back in dealers tank. But the agency has approved this as, anyway these vapors would have gone in atmosphere and customer would have lost it, so its better to avoid pollution & get the vapors collected by the dispenser.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

Though the difference is very small for 5 liters say max 500mL (APP not sure), but in my opinion the main reason is the fuel is stable for the entire night & you don't get the dirt of the tank mixed in the fuel.

Hello Modefiedsachin,

Thank you once again for your detailed & technical explanation. I will now ensure to fill petrol in my Car & Bike during mornings.

Also why is temperature compensation not considered in our Country?

I have seen Furnance Oil Invoices & they do mention the temperature at the time of filling the Tanker. Is the same the case with Dealer Invoices? I mean, if a company dispatches 10,000 litres of Petrol / Diesel to Dealer does the Invoice considers Temperature variation?

Thanks,

[archat68]

From the IOC website I found the following while I was searching for COCO:

Retail outlet name .............NAME OF PROP / PARTNER
COCO CUSTOMER-KASBA KOLKATA .............. LAKSHMI NARAYAN CHAKRABARTY

COCO-GARIA .................AD-HOC

Does this means they are COCO or Co-owned but operated by a dealer?

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Also why is temperature compensation not considered in our Country?Thanks,

That's the sad part. All dispenser manufacturers do have Vapor recover & temperature compensation feature in their basket. Its just our PSU are not asking for this.

Even the Automation at outlets is a major failure as the dealers are caught read handed & hence they do not want it to work. (Case is different in metros where computerized or dispenser printed (thermal) bills are asked by every one.)

One more small suggestion, try to get fuel from the newest possible model you have seen on the outlets.
Mainly the MPDs (Multi product Dispensers)

Older the model, more knowledge to the people, more chances of tampering.

Originally Posted by archat68

From the IOC website I found the following while I was searching for COCO:

Retail outlet name NAME OF PROP / PARTNER
COCO CUSTOMER-KASBA KOLKATA LAKSHMI NARAYAN CHAKRABARTY

COCO-GARIA AD-HOC

Does this means they are COCO or Co-owned but operated by a dealer?

When ever you see COCO it is always company owned company ooperated.
All the employees at this outlet are on the payroll of the oil company or on contract with the oil company & no dealer is involved here.

Just see this

" http://www.iocl.com/Talktous/COCO170310.PDF "

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[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

Correct its 4% of evaporation allowed at dealer end & oil company (i.e. IOCL, BPCL or HPCL) does not charge for this fix calculations. So dealer is not bearing the evaporation cost.

Absolutely incorrect information pemissible evaporation loss for all omc's is .6% for petrol and .4% for diesel. Dealers are not in any way compensated for evaporation losses.

Originally Posted by archat68

From the IOC website I found the following while I was searching for COCO:

Retail outlet name .............NAME OF PROP / PARTNER
COCO CUSTOMER-KASBA KOLKATA .............. LAKSHMI NARAYAN CHAKRABARTY

COCO-GARIA .................AD-HOC

Does this means they are COCO or Co-owned but operated by a dealer?

These are running as temporary coco's as its clearly mentioned as Ad Hoc. So its in the hands of a dealer for a specified time frame.

[archat68]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

These are running as temporary coco's as its clearly mentioned as Ad Hoc. So its in the hands of a dealer for a specified time frame.

Originally Posted by archat68

Retail outlet name .............NAME OF PROP / PARTNER
COCO CUSTOMER-KASBA KOLKATA .............. LAKSHMI NARAYAN CHAKRABARTY

Thanks!!
And this one?

[grazd]

Thanks for the detailed technical info. Is there a way to find out a list of all COCO outlets in a given city? I have hardly seen any in places I have lived in.

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

Hi All,


Almost all the outlets which we see as CODO (Company Owned Dealer Operated), so look for COCO.


At any outlet you can demand the check for quantity & they will show a delivery of 5 Liters in a CAN, you can also check its Buoyancy (only rule is you have to buy that 5 liters if its correct).

Make sure you see the W&M seal for date of calibration of the CAN as the outlet keeps 2 CANS one for calibration & one for people to check.

But we do not have this much time so better to stick to COCO.

I hope it adds some value to this thread.

[runaldahiwade]

After getting a duly researched perspective of fuel pumps retailing liquid fuels, i feel even more compelled to know the nuances of LPG and CNG

By general logic, I can assume that the very same shortcomings of Logistics, Maintenance, Storage and Operations are even more vulnerable with CNG and LPG.

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

Absolutely incorrect information pemissible evaporation loss for all omc's is .6% for petrol and .4% for diesel. Dealers are not in any way compensated for evaporation losses.



These are running as temporary coco's as its clearly mentioned as Ad Hoc. So its in the hands of a dealer for a specified time frame.

This is what the document says, where it says 0.15% for Diesel & 0.59% for Petrol (MS), but when I asked to field service engineers and they said that the monthly consolidation is done on fix 4% evaporation.

And the document clearly says that in case of COCO (As this is a snap from the document for COCO which I referred) the loss is absorbed by
Oil Company for the limits given above.

" http://www.iocl.com/Talktous/COCO170310.PDF " Page 10 last para

I prefer to stick to the facts published & known from actual field. But leave the choice to you all.
Well the only intention was if the losses are absorbed by Oil Companies then the probability of tampering for covering the losses reduces. So once again we benefit. And that's what the document published by INDIAN OIL states.

Originally Posted by grazd

Thanks for the detailed technical info. Is there a way to find out a list of all COCO outlets in a given city? I have hardly seen any in places I have lived in.

Here is the link

http://forest.delhigovt.nic.in/ioil.htm

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[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by archat68

Thanks!!
And this one?

Well thats also dealer operated as it mentions the name of the dealer under partner/ propreitor. If it was a pemanent coco it would have iocl as the propreitor.

Originally Posted by runaldahiwade

After getting a duly researched perspective of fuel pumps retailing liquid fuels, i feel even more compelled to know the nuances of LPG and CNG

By general logic, I can assume that the very same shortcomings of Logistics, Maintenance, Storage and Operations are even more vulnerable with CNG and LPG.

Quite the contrary cng is far better than petrol diesel sales atleast from the retailers point of view absolutely no losses you pay for exactly what you get. No calibration issues At all.

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

This is what the document says, where it says 0.15% for Diesel & 0.59% for Petrol (MS), but when I asked to field service engineers and they said that the monthly consolidation is done on fix 4% evaporation.

And the document clearly says that in case of COCO (As this is a snap from the document for COCO which I referred) the loss is absorbed by Oil Company for the limits given above.

And yes diesel permissible evaporation limit is .2 %

The 4% applies on total stock inventory recieved however operational losses are calculated on .6 and .4 respectively

[amitwlele]

Thanks to aplang1, akhilesh and Born 2 Be Wild for providing so much information in this thread.

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

By automated pumps he meant pumps that are automated and have digital probes in their tanks and all the nozzles on the dispensers are connected to a system in the office wherby pump owner or manager can monitor each and every thing from stock in the tanks to sale outside every tranaction is recorded.

How do i know which pumps are automated? Any visual indications?

[devansn]

Thanks for this post. Very informative about how misinformed we the end customers are about the reality!

Originally Posted by superutp

The only bright side I see here is that our cars give better FE than we think they do

But at the same time, are our vehicles running a kilometer when the ODO says so?! I have heard many stories about some manufacturers (mis)calibrating their ODO meters so as to "show" higher FE.

But yes, ultimately its the poor chap whose income tax gets deducted at source who is being fooled to the limit! A vehicle owner pays tax when he buys the vehicle, pays the road tax, registration fees, pays tax on every other consumables of the vehicles (may be upto a good 30% on fuel as well), pays tolls for even badly maintained roads, etc. I may have missed on numerous other ways that a common man is being taxed for owning a vehicle.

In spite of all this, what I fail to understand is, why the hell are we not seeing this kind of money being used for better, safe, convenient infrastructure! And still the government doesn't have enough money to stop farmers from suicides, for better hospital facilities for common man, for free education and what not!

[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by amitwlele

How do i know which pumps are automated? Any visual indications?

Well theres no Signages to indicate automated pumps however in the metros most pumps are automated say about 90%

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by amitwlele

How do i know which pumps are automated? Any visual indications?

Mostly all (I am not trying to say each and every), the outlets which are automated, have a attendant tagging system installed. As it gives them clear information for which attendant made the delivery (If in case of any fight).

On a dispenser you may see attendant showing a TAG (On some BPCL outlets the TAGs are given in form of a wrist strap and they show it) before starting the delivery.

(This is much similar to our office ID cards which we present to a reader and the door opens)