[Gansan]

Originally Posted by souravc

Would SIAM share something like this and palm it off as a planning commission note ? We can accuse SIAM of sharing selective information but think it would be wrong to question the correctness of an info share in black and white

It would be the easiest thing for a powerful lobby to plant (even generate) an internal report in a govt department and then innocuously share it with us - the report gains respectability. whereas it would be laughable if it emanates from SIAM itself.

Originally Posted by SAS

Actually SIAM would be pushing the government the other way around. They would like to lobby for the government to avoid increasing the taxes on diesel cars.

I would imagine that is the very purpose of this "sharing" of data!

[SAS]

Originally Posted by Gansan

It would be the easiest thing for a powerful lobby to plant (even generate) an internal report in a govt department and then innocuously share it with us - the report gains respectability. whereas it would be laughable if it emanates from SIAM itself.



I would imagine that is the very purpose of this "sharing" of data!

It's true that SIAM can lobby for things, however they are not the source of the problem. The source lies elsewhere viz. the government's policies. Farmers are not the biggest beneficiaries of subsidized diesel. Hence it warrants for the government to subsidize the diesel used by farmers, not others. The government should give subsidies to farmers in another form rather than subsidizing diesel.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by SunilM

A report from SIAM has a definite conflict of interest and is heavily biased. They have tried to slice and dice the data (which itself may not be entirely accurate) into segments to show the diesel vehicle figures very low - since the government is after it!

The report is from Planning commission, not SIAM. Although I also would be suspicious of the numbers.

Originally Posted by SunilM

Decreasing taxes is also a non-starter. In a country like ours, where hardly 1-3% of the population pays income tax, the government HAS to collect revenue from elsewhere. Oil tax is one of the highest indirect taxes and a big source of revenue for center and states and there is absolutely no chance that it will be waived off or even reduced by a little.

I would think if people are not paying income tax, that is where the government should focus on, no? What is the point in increasing tax burden on the tax paying salaried folks or increasing the burden on the poor by increasing indirect taxes? Let them start with politicians.

[sa_kiran]

Diesel is a DIRTY FUEL, particularly the subsidized one sold in India - http://www.cseindia.org/node/83

I've noticed huge smoke behind diesel cars when they accelerate, which almost never happens in case of petrol cars. This is the most visible sign of diesel being a dirty fuel.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Gansan

It would be the easiest thing for a powerful lobby to plant (even generate) an internal report in a govt department and then innocuously share it with us - the report gains respectability. whereas it would be laughable if it emanates from SIAM itself.



I would imagine that is the very purpose of this "sharing" of data!

Wow! A conspiracy theory that would even put the left-wing nutcases in my home state to shame.

I share a concern about the reliability of the data, but I doubt that a reasonably respectable organization can "plant" data like that. They have little to gain and a lot to lose in this.

[highway_star]

A report on petroleum pricing, by the Ministry of Petroleum & Natural Gas, is available at this link -

http://petroleum.nic.in/reportprice.pdf

It shows the breakup of diesel consumption for 2008-09. The figures are:

Trucks...................37%
Buses....................12%
Passenger cars........15%
Power generators.......8%
Agriculture..............12%
Railways..................6%
Industry.................10%

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by bblost

I am curious how they figure this out.
As all these vehicles fill up from the same fuel pump and no one keeps a log on vehicle type.

You hit the nail on it's head Imran. How did they ever come up with these stats ? Maybe based on those discount card marketing guys they allow on the bunks' premises, I don't know. The report and the stats are all terribly flawed.

Originally Posted by rohan_iitr

1. Cars are more fuel efficient than buses, SUVs, railways etc

Rohan, Buses, trucks or trains are much more FE than any frugal diesel car simply because of the number of people they carry or the weight they lug. The latest Volvos, I am sure make this equation incredibly awesome in terms of FE.

[kiku007]

0.6%? ROFL! A recent survey has reported that 97.7% of all survey's are just made up. :P

Let SIAM first come out with Petrol Vs Diesel split up of cars sold in India segment wise.

[wildsdi5530]

@ esteem lover: volvo bus gives and average of 1-1.5kmpl. and carries 40 people. My figo gives 22 kmpl and carries 4 people. And costs 1/10th the cost of Volvo bus. How is the Volvo bus owner poorer than me?
@sa kiran: diesel is indeed a dirty fuel. and so is the adultrated petrol we get here. But the dirty diesel in a truck or a train pollutes more than a personal car.

Also I feel that car companies make more profit on petrol cars vis a vis diesel cars. Petrol technology even TSI and others are much simpler. and components undergo much less stress in a petrol engine.

Collecting more money from 1 mercedes owner will not offset the unpaid tax of 1 lakh people. Rather than create a lokpal with 1 lakh employees, govt should concentrate on collecting tax from the defaulters.

[vivekkp]

What does SIAM intends by three wheelers? Does it mean autorickshaws? Because most of the auto's run on LPG i do not understand how three wheelers can contribute to 3.5% of diesel consumption. Can anyone enlighten us.

[xingamazon]

I do not think the report is quoting things rightly.
In fact I feel its blatantly wrong.

Think if it, how many three wheelers do you see running on Diesel, compare it when the number of cars and SUVs etc that you see on road. No way Diesel three wheelers can consumer more diesel than the cars altogether.
Note I am not talking of all three wheelers just the diesel three wheelers (which should be around 30% of total three wheelers).

Or am I missing some detail

[Aroy]

Barring a few owners, private vehicle travel lot less than commercial vehicles.
A commercial vehicle does at least 500km/day, normally 800+ a day, compared to an average of less than 50/day for private cars.

The FE of trucks and buses is 4km/l and less, that of most private vehicles 15km/L. So with 10 times more distance and 4 times the FE, trucks and buses would consume 40 times the fuel. Similarly in case of a diesel taxi it would consume at least 10 times more. Jeeps and MUV are also primarily in the Taxi market, so their consumption of diesel is similar to taxis. Diesel three wheelers are predominantly commercial vehicles, with FE in the range of 20+.

So if trucks & buses consume 40% of fuel, it stands to reason that private vehicles would be at around 1%, there fore 0.6% seems reasonable. Similarly three wheelers, with FE of 5 times better than trucks, would consume around 2-3% of the fuel. Add to that older vehicles and overloading, the FE of commercial vehicles would be still lower, boosting their proportion in fuel consumption.

This is assuming that the numbers in each category plying daily are equal.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by vivekkp

What does SIAM intends by three wheelers? Does it mean autorickshaws? Because most of the auto's run on LPG i do not understand how three wheelers can contribute to 3.5% of diesel consumption. Can anyone enlighten us.

There are three categories of diesel three wheelers

. Passenger. These are predominant in the rural areas, carrying 6-10 passengers, supplementing buses. Even in Delhi you will see them ferrying passengers from outskirts, to commercial hub at Nehru Place.

. Goods vehicles. These are predominantly 1/4 and 1/2 ton vehicles supplementing the larger trucks.

. Older "Tempos" which still run in emote areas.

What we see in Metros are the two passenger CNG versions, but these are slowly being overtaken in numbers by their diesel brethren. As a commercial vehicle they easily do 300-500km/day, hence such high diesel consumption. In Okhla Vegetable Mandi, I did ask one how much they run, and he said that to brake even they have to make at least 300km/day, but on good days they do 500/day (their day starts at 5AM and ends at midnight, in two shifts)

[vivekkp]

Originally Posted by Aroy

There are three categories of diesel three wheelers

. Passenger. These are predominant in the rural areas, carrying 6-10 passengers, supplementing buses. Even in Delhi you will see them ferrying passengers from outskirts, to commercial hub at Nehru Place.

. Goods vehicles. These are predominantly 1/4 and 1/2 ton vehicles supplementing the larger trucks.

. Older "Tempos" which still run in emote areas.

What we see in Metros are the two passenger CNG versions, but these are slowly being overtaken in numbers by their diesel brethren. As a commercial vehicle they easily do 300-500km/day, hence such high diesel consumption. In Okhla Vegetable Mandi, I did ask one how much they run, and he said that to brake even they have to make at least 300km/day, but on good days they do 500/day (their day starts at 5AM and ends at midnight, in two shifts)

Thanks for the info Aroy, but i haven't spotted the 3 wheelers here in Bangalore. Hence was wondering such high fuel consumption.

[singhsid]

To add to the "dirty fuel" debate, I was reading a report on global warming/climate where it was mentioned that when it comes to GHG, diesel is marginally worse - releasing 2.5kg of CO2 per liter compared to petrol's 2.2kg of CO2 per liter. Can't comment on overall impact because I have no clue about the amount of diesel/petrol consumed daily in India.