[Rahul Rao]

@batish
I have used many cars from many brands till date 12 of my own, and 7 others purchased by other family members who did not want them, and come to the conclusion that no one gives you a car that has everything.
Considering that you are in the market for sub 20 lakhs cars, these are toppers in the range.

For good Built, road holding and stability.
Volkswagen, Skoda, Ford, Toyota (Except Etios), Hyundai (Creta and Elantra)

For low maintenance cost and dependablity.
Toyota, Honda, Ford, Maruti, Hyundai. (Yes Maruti is higher in cost per lakh km due to frequent service interval and part replacement)

For Finishing and Features.
Hyundai, Volkswagen, only higher trim cars from others.


Considering everything, Toyota Corolla or Crysta followed by most cars offered by Ford works out to be the best compromise.

Rahul

[bharath79]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

Without intending to specifically pick on any of the posts quoted above, the relatively poor (compared to Japanese vehicles) reliability factor of the German and American vehicles has got to do with the design philosophy of the manufacturers. Their expectation may be for the users to change to a new car every 5 to 6 years as opposed to the Japanese philosophy where the car is actually "designed" to hold on more reliably for longer.

Most of the German car brands have nearly a 100 years of expertise making cars so the (poor) reliability factor cannot be due to lack of expertise but a way of design (expecting the customer to use and recycle the car every 5 to 6 years). They could do their part to make it reliable like the Japanese but they don't want to.

Recollecting one of the TV (Discovery/NG series) episodes mentioning that what the reliability factor of a 5 year Ford or GM car would be similar to the reliability factor of a 13 year old Toyota in the US. The reliablity is by design and not unintentional.

Most of the reliablity surveys have always ranked the Japanese cars at the top and the European vehicles at the bottom.(One of the Surveys)
This does not mean that the customer base of German cars will be drastically affected. People make conscious choices and would still go for a Volkswagen although it ranks at the bottom of the reliability list because they want it for its other positives.

I probably agree with whatever is mentioned here. It is just that I think the India specific cars (bread and butter ones) have been designed, even more poorly, causing the customers to run back to the showroom for an exchange.

I would be surprised if a Q3 couldn't run for 10 years in more or less, a reasonably pristine condition, but may not expect a 10-15 lakh car to do the same.

I think an interesting angle gets added if you consider the Italians (Fiat). I have a feeling the above theory of 5 years may not be valid for the Italian Stallions. I am in awe of those machines and I think they, perhaps, just keep running till you want to get rid of them. I am open to be corrected here.

Regards
Bharath

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by nd4$pd

Can you site any studies for this?
JD power certainly ranks Honda higher than Hyundai in their 2016 US dependability rankings
http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study...by-Make/846ENG

My source is the 2015 study. And general views on forums etc.
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...617-story.html

The perception is that in the last 10 years Honda has gone downhill and Hyundai has moved up.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars-...bility-survey/

[batish]

Originally Posted by drsingh

Toyota/Maruti/Hyundai for peace of mind.

Maruti has Ciaz which I think is underpowered and even their build quality is shoddier than most of its competitors.
Hyundai has Verna in this range which has a facelift coming in few months, so dropped out Verna.

Originally Posted by srishiva

My 6 year old Vento had engine mounts and gearbox mounts changed, AC coil changed, one front suspension arm changed. It had engine check issue which was a result of a cut wire.

Some of the issues took multiple trips to the Service centre. Now one of the injectors has gone bad.

Spare parts are costly too.

Yes Sir. Injectors going bad is something which is too frequent in these cars. Spares are the costliest in its class.

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

@batish
I have used many cars from many brands till date 12 of my own, and 7 others purchased by other family members who did not want them, and come to the conclusion that no one gives you a car that has everything.
Considering that you are in the market for sub 20 lakhs cars, these are toppers in the range.

For good Built, road holding and stability.
Volkswagen, Scoda, Ford, Toyota (Except Etios), Hyundai (Creta and Elantra)

For low maintenance cost and dependablity.
Toyota, Honda, Ford, Maruti, Hyundai. (Yes Maruti is higher in cost per lakh km due to frequent service interval and part replacement)

For Finishing and Features.
Hyundai, Volkswagen, only higher trim cars from others.


Considering everything, Toyota Corolla or Crysta followed by most cars offered by Ford works out to be the best compromise.

Rahul

Sir,
VAG are too unreliable, the only thing they have which I think is great is their build quality and drivability. Ford has Ecosport in this range, which also is getting a facelift soon. Read that it would be launched near Diwali, personally in the current one I don't like the interior. Toyota has Corolla Altis after the Etios which is a segment above just like the Elantra.
Yes, Creta. I did not check it out as was interested in Vento. Will check it soon.

[aashish_84]

Got my Candy White GT TSI on 28-Nov '16 and only after 2 days it started making squeaking noises from the dashboard area, from behind the right side AC vent. Or at least that’s what it sounded like. I thought I’d drive it for a couple of days and maybe it’ll go away. But instead it started to become more pronounced even on normal roads which started to become really annoying to me. I called the Service Centre (Frontier Auto World, Sec 52, Gurugram) and booked an appointment to have it checked as I could just no longer drive the car with that squeaking noise.

Cutting the story short, the Car stayed there for 4 days and:

- Dashboard was ripped apart, no fault issue found;
- Front right fender was opened, no fault found;
- Front right Suspension was opened, no fault found

Finally an update came- We have sent the report to VW and waiting for a response.

Next day - We have diagnosed the issue and it's the Front right Suspension mount bracket which was found to have a welding defect and was causing the noise and that the part has been ordered and I can come and pick the car and bring it back when the part arrives (ETA - 1 Week)

This guy:



I went to pick the car and to my surprise, the car was missing the Dashboard!!

I immediately approached the Service manager and requested to take action. He promised the car will be ready in 2 hrs and that he Apologies!!

Fast forward 4 hours >> Dashboard fixed, Steering fixed, but the ESP light would not go away (Steering alignment issue). They removed the steering and fixed it back about 5 times, went through the adaptation steps, but it just won't go away. It's already 6:30 PM and no one has a clue what's going on, it's chaos everywhere.

The Service manager offered me a Loaner Car (Manual AMEO Petrol) and promised he'll get this fixed tomorrow by afternoon. Got call @ 1 PM next day, ESP issue fixed, and I can come and pick the car.

Fast Forward 1 week >> Part arrived.

Left the car at the service center and was promised that I'll have it back in 2 days with the new part and issue resolved.

Fast Forward 3 days >> Called Service Manager and he said it will take 2 more days as the part has been welded and now will be painted and then one night in the Drying room.

Finally after 5 days I got the car back, with noise issue resolved, far from NEW condition. They did a complete 3M interior cleaning. But still I could notice minor scratches here and there.

I am okay with the fact that its a manufacturing defect and can happen to anyone, but completely disappointed how this whole issue was treated.
Being a brand new car, I could see no sense of urgency.
I never got update calls from the SA. I had to proactively call him everyday and he would be completely lost
The condition of the car, no care was taken even knowing this is a 2 day old car

So much so for VW Quality.

In the end, I am just glad I have the car back and I can't get enough of it

P.S.
I've not received a single response so far on all the Complaint emails I sent out to VW

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by batish

Sir, Toyota doesn't have any car in this price range. They have Etios and then the Corolla Altis. Nothing in between.
Agreed Sir for the build quality. Regarding Maintenance and Service, My cousin owns a 1.2 TDI Polo, his 90K service is due in two months. He previously asked the service advisor what would be the bill at 90K service (estimate). The SA told him Rs. 13K for the normal service and timing belt would also be changed which would cost around Rs. 25K. So his total bill would be around Rs. 38K.

Timing belt is changed only at the 2.10 Lakh or 14 year service, and not 90k one. Even regular poly v belt is replaced only at 1.2 lakh km. Upto the 75 k service none of my bills exceeded Rs 8000. Any thing more means the SA is takng you for a ride. Even brake pads were 8mm thick down from original 14mm at 75k, most Japanes cars have 10 mm pads wen new.

Rahul

[batish]

Originally Posted by aashish_84

P.S.
I've not received a single response so far on all the Complaint emails I sent out to VW

They just forward the complaint to the respective dealership and their customer service manager calls and try to rectify the issue with their staff.

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

Timing belt is changed only at the 2.10 Lakh or 14 year service, and not 90k one. Even regular poly v belt is replaced only at 1.2 lakh km. Upto the 75 k service none of my bills exceeded Rs 8000. Any thing more means the SA is takng you for a ride. Even brake pads were 8mm thick down from original 14mm at 75k, most Japanes cars have 10 mm pads wen new.

Rahul

Are you sure about this?
I checked Volkswagen's official website, could not find the Service Cost Calculator like in the Skoda but found Service Cost Labour Calculator. I am attaching the picture for your reference, read S. No. 21. where it says Rib-belt (Timing Belt for Diesel Engine) has to be replaced at 90K kms. But on Skoda's website I searched for Rapid's Engine belt they change at 120K kms and costs Rs. 10,477 without labour.

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by batish

Are you sure about this?
I checked Volkswagen's official website, could not find the Service Cost Calculator like in the Skoda but found Service Cost Labour Calculator. I am attaching the picture for your reference,

My car is 2012 make, and in it's manual timing belt replacement is at 2.10 Lakh km. In fact some of the sales staff that visit me have 2011 make cars, and most of them are now closing on to 2 lakh km, without any major work. Will scan and post from my manual later.
Funny thing I've noticed is that all medium to heavy users like intercity travelling salesmen whose average use is 30k to 50k a year are very happy about VW cars. Those like me who currently do 20k a year are also ok with them, but all those whose use is within 15k a year just curse these cars.
Light users are all very happy with Honda, Maruti and Hyundai which all heavy users hate. Toyota seems to be the only car which makes it to the good books of both types of users.

Rahul

[moralfibre]

Our VW Vento experience is well documented here. The car was a nightmare of sorts after 3-4 years of ownership. Many have voiced similar concerns in the same thread. Globally, the 1.6 TDi engines have been notorious for injector and EGR failures:

See this.


The Vento experience was the sole reason why we shied away from getting a used Jetta. While the problems on the Jetta are far less than the Vento, although if we look at them in perspective of their sales numbers, the problems per car could possibly be in a matching trend. Obviously VW has dropped from our list of recommended cars to friends and family members as well. Secretly, I still lust for a Jetta but I am not paying for one till my brain cells are alive and active.

[nidhinsarath]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

Funny thing I've noticed is that all medium to heavy users like intercity travelling salesmen whose average use is 30k to 50k a year are very happy about VW cars. Those like me who currently do 20k a year are also ok with them, but all those whose use is within 15k a year just curse these cars.
Light users are all very happy with Honda, Maruti and Hyundai which all heavy users hate. Toyota seems to be the only car which makes it to the good books of both types of users.

Rahul

I completely agree on you. Even I've felt the same. Those who use VW cars around 30-35 k kms annually are very happy with the vehicle. Injector issues was more prone for old 1.6 L engines. My thought is ' If you properly maintain these vehicles without pampering with after market accessories and stick on to regular periodic service there is nothing to be scared off'. VW maintenance is slightly on the higher side compared to its Japanese and Korean counterparts. VW service guys are also very bad in handling these cars. They just don't know how to handle the technical difficulties. It's just because of these vehicles engine and build quality they are escaping in most of the instances. But the sheer build quality, interior design, everlasting design and superb ride quality makes enthusiasts to go in for this brand.

[gopi_rm]

The problem with VW cars in India is its complexity w.r.t. mechanicals and electronics.
These are modern complex machines and mechanics in India are not trained enough to diagnose issues with these cars. Combine this with high spare part cost and its ETA, less responsive workshop and uncaring VW management, its a nightmare.

In contrast, in Germany and other Europeon countries VW sells more cars than any other brand and Japanese are at the bottom in sales chart. Of course Germans pay more attention to build quality and design hence Japanese/Asian cars are of least priority.
The reason that VWs are reliable (apart from few manufacturing defects) atleast in Germany are:

• VW cars and engines are fundamentally desgined and devepoed in Germany and hence very well adapted to its road and environmental conditions. Air conditioning is necessary only for 3-4 months in a year.

• almost all mechanics (even roadside FNGs) have the know-how/experience about these complex machines

• people maintain their cars as per the service booklet. In a separate service booklet, for each scheduled service the list of checks/part replacements to be performed are clearly mentioned and once it is done the respective workshop will tick all the checks done and put their seal below it. While selling the car, the buyers will prefer only cars with proper service history.

• there is a mandatory vehicle road worthiness check (engine, drivetrain, electricals, etc.) by Goverment agency (Tüv) for every 2 years so every car must be maintained in a proper way to pass this test

[bharath79]

Originally Posted by nidhinsarath

' If you properly maintain these vehicles without pampering with after market accessories and stick on to regular periodic service there is nothing to be scared off'.

I think i agree with this. Keep the stock condition and it might last you longer...

Regards
Bharath

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by bharath79

I think i agree with this. Keep the stock condition and it might last you longer...

Cannot generalize thus. Mine is a stock 'Highline' vehicle with maintenance schedule followed to the core. Petrol used is only from Shell ( Normal grade) .

Had reliability issue on component level and problem sorted out without CONCLUSION.

[bharath79]

Ok.

That is a matter of concern and also makes it unpredictable.

Regards
Bharath

[sgiitk]

German reliability is a myth. Today the Japanese and Koreans have the Europeans for breakfast. I find the Germans overpriced and overhyped.