[Hayek]

Have a slightly different view on this. Agree fully that people should take informed consent before carrying out recommended but not essential service activities. But while dealing with time poor customers, that consent is almost always vaguely worded. Most of the above items have been included in the service costs for my Superb and Vento. And I am glad they were done - and comfortable paying for the same. I feel my cars have been in better condition and it has been worth it

[hserus]

Originally Posted by naveen.raju

Happens with Hyundai as well. They even try to push synthetic oil as default. I make it a point to let the SA write all the work/items on the job card that's going be done on the car and mention that no optional items like A/C disinfectant, engine bay cleaning, interior cleaning, exterior wash, wheel alignment/balancing should be done.

The oil Hyundai recommends for their vehicles is clearly described here https://www.hyundai.com/in/en/connec...les/engine-oil

For most Petrol vehicles it is 5w30 which is typically a semi synthetic oil when a Dealership fills it (aka Group 3 Synthetic or Synthetic Blend). For older Diesel vehicles they specify a standard API CH4 15w40 (a diesel specific oil) - so if they offer you synthetic for that, make sure it is a CH4 or higher Synthetic rather than one of the dual use Petrol / Diesel 5w30 ones that they standardized on across the board for newer vehicles.

For these Diesel engine oils - or for any good Mineral oil, the oil + the additive package might make these a better choice than some cheap semi synthetic oils.

So take a CI4+ or higher mineral oil such as Shell Rimula R4, or if you want Synthetic, Mobil Delvac 1 (CI4+) or Amsoil 5w40 Turbo Truck (CK4) type oils.

Back to the original topic, one thing my Mahindra SA for the Scorpio keeps pressing on me is "brake cleaning" - every service, he jacks up the vehicle and uses emery paper to clean the brake pads and brake disc. Fine, no harm no foul and he gets some revenue out of it that means he isn't too upset at my using my own engine oil from Amsoil and filters from Purolator / Sofima instead of the Mahindra ones. Bonus being he's always glad to look up the service record of any Scorpio or XUV I might buy in the future. So I take that and turn down all the additives for Injector / EGR, interior treatments etc type stuff, get that done at a good local car wash, and wheel balancing and alignment at MRF Tyredrome.

[SmartCat]

This is not a surprise for most Honda owners in Bangalore - because Honda dealers are experts in this department. Unnecessary items are added to the list primarily because service advisors have end of the month 'targets' to meet. Now this is going to get worse as large number of dealers are having cash flow problems because of sales slowdown.

To avoid this issue, I recommend the following -

1) Ask for a particular service advisor you have already done 'business' with.
2) Avoid getting the car serviced towards end of the month (when sales advisors are under maximum pressure to meet targets)
3) Pre-empt the service advisor by getting some useful extras done for the car. My favorite is 3M interior cleaning because it gets rid of dust and grime that has accumulated over the year. Another useful option is polishing and waxing.

Two more things:

1) I'm genuinely fearful that if we refuse all optional extras recommended by the service advisor, the dealer might just wash the car and hand it back to you!

2) The cost of servicing a car (Eg: Rs. 1,000 labor charges etc) fixed by the manufacturer is way too low. Think about inflation, employee salaries, dealership rentals etc. Just a tankful of petrol costs Rs. 3,500 which we don't mind paying every week.

So I don't mind paying a little extra over the published "servicing costs" once a year.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

.
1) I'm genuinely fearful that if we refuse all optional extras recommended by the service advisor, the dealer might just wash the car and hand it back to you!

2) The cost of servicing a car (Eg: Rs. 1,000 labor charges etc) fixed by the manufacturer is way too low. Think about inflation, employee salaries, dealership rentals etc. Just a tankful of petrol costs Rs. 3,500 which we don't mind paying every week.

So I don't mind paying some little extra over the published "servicing costs" once a year.

We shall anyway check the dipstick to see the oil level and condition. New oil on the dipstick can easily be distinguished from the old oil. Similarly, the new filter can be checked visually. And although we have heard rare incidents of car being washed without oil change, it won't be blatantly a part of their process.

The fact that we check the oil, filter etc. will deter the service advisor from playing tricks.

Regarding the service charges, I think that the manufacturer would have been reasonable, if not generous, in deciding the service charges. The general service will be always cost effective. But in certain specialised jobs involving special tooling / practices, the company decides respectable charges so that the dealer can earn well.

Then there are repairs involving insurance (accident cases, denting / painting jobs) where the dealer gets good money.

So considering all this and the margin in the spares, I think that the company is not unfair to the dealer.

Financial pressures and inflated service bills seem to be due to less effective financial and process management.

[Turbanator]

Thanks to everyone for inputs.

Originally Posted by Samba

I got the front wheel bearing of my Etios petrol changed
The part number of your Liva and my petrol Etios are different. Am guessing yours is a diesel, hence the part no is different and costlier.
Parts price with tax- Rs 3698
Part No- A-43350-0 D022
For you

Parts price with tax- Rs 6099
Part No- A-43350-0 D012

Thanks for the part numbers, given the way they had inflated the Labour charges on the first estimate, I will double-check for the Bearing part number tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Yes all dealers including Toyota have started doing this.
All these started with AC disinfectant and has now spread to

Correct but I heard- Internal Panel coating for the first time, the reason being that water enters from the doors/ windows and doors can get rusty. Absolutely new for me.

After my mail to Toyota, I got a call back from their call centre. Based on the past experience I had little hopes, the guy read some questions from their computer and all the time was asking if it should be taken as a request or Complaint I have asked him to send me an Email that if Toyota Dealers are recommending all these Coatings like Internal panels or Silencer than how did they get an approval to sell a car for our country at the first place? Without these coatings, Toyota cars will not be roadworthy and should not have been sold in the first place! Obviously, the guy was clueless and told that he cannot send any written replies. I don't have any other brands except for BMW & Toyota so don't know what happens with the other brands but BMW helpline is infinitely better at least you feel that you are communicating with humans.

Originally Posted by harsha.muvva

I feel extremely sad for the not so knowledgeable customers who blindly send cars with drivers and don't bother to check bill afterwards or blindly believe in service advisors words

Think from a corporate customer prospective, a small company say with 8-10 cars, you can't have a transport manager and mostly these have to be sent to the service centre via drivers only. Though our drivers are now fully aware of what to get done and what all to leave however they don't take chances and ask service advisors to send the estimate and get approval from our accounts. I am sure if they would have added only a few things, with the limited knowledge of accountant, we would have given go-ahead.

Originally Posted by Hayek

Have a slightly different view on this. Most of the above items have been included in the service costs for my Superb and Vento. I feel my cars have been in better condition and it has been worth it

Even I pamper my cars and usually opt for dry cleaning/ exterior treatment with BMW or send specifically to 3M periodically but on a car like Liva where you can get a good quality seat covers for less than 5 K and clean the plastics by wiping, I don't think one needs to pay Toyota so much and we all know what sort of cleaning they would have done on such plastic parts. Besides if Silencers and door panels need to be coated at Dealership what's the point of manufacturing something so shabby at the Factory Level?

From this incident, Two things have come up - First, a new charge - Internal Door treatment which is over and above the usual charges these dealerships are asking across the regular brands and Second we need to matchup Labour charges appropriately with the part being replaced like in this case they inflated Labour charges for Bearing replacement 3 times and used a different code fraudulently.

This is something which I had never expected from Toyota and in my opinion, they must Bind Labour charges with the spare part being used. So their system should have picked the appropriate labour charges for the bearing. I am sure, this malpractice will be happening at other places as well.

Let's see how Toyota India responds. Will update here.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

2) The cost of servicing a car (Eg: Rs. 1,000 labor charges etc) fixed by the manufacturer is way too low. Think about inflation, employee salaries, dealership rentals etc. Just a tankful of petrol costs Rs. 3,500 which we don't mind paying every week.

So I don't mind paying a little extra over the published "servicing costs" once a year.

Please check with any third party service center regarding service costs and you’ll see how wrong your assumption is. When I started going to my FNG post warranty, my scheduled service costs dropped by more than 50%. This was inspite of all genuine spare parts being used.

Also you may not mind paying extra but most people do. This thread was about overcharging and fleecing by Toyota’s service center and if you do go through the costs shared by the OP you will realise it’s more than just a little extra.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Please check with any third party service center regarding service costs and you’ll see how wrong your assumption is. When I started going to my FNG post warranty, my scheduled service costs dropped by more than 50%. This was inspite of all genuine spare parts being used.

Your friendly neighborhood garage -

- Does not have a large garage situated in a prime location (meaning real estate rentals)
- Does not pay any taxes (GST, employee TDS, employee PF contribution and corporate income tax)
- Has low initial investment (no computers, lower manpower [receptionist, security guard, service advisors], no air-conditioned customer lounges etc)

So savings of 50% when you go to a neighborhood garage is expected. It is like comparing Rs. 100 lunch at roadside dhaba vs Rs. 200 lunch at a well known restaurant chain.

[V.Narayan]

It doesn't matter if it is Rs 9000/- or Rs 90,000/- that is causing the customer to feel he has been ripped off. That feeling of being taken for granted or worse taken for a ride won't be forgotten for a very very long time. So Toyota adding bells and whistles without checking with the client is not on. And of course how much extra you are willing to spend is also a function of the purchase price of the car and your own preferences. Toyota clearly step across the line in the sand here.

Personally, like Hayek, my take is different. I go for the maximum maintenance/upgrade that is sensible rather than the minimum be it for the 9 year old Honda Jazz or the 2 year old Lexus. The approach does help keep the car as good as new well into its age. It also helps to build a warm relationship with the service centre head and one solid engineer and let the dealership owner know what great guys they are.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

That feeling of being taken for granted or worse taken for a ride won't be forgotten for a very very long time. So Toyota adding bells and whistles without checking with the client is not on. And of course how much extra you are willing to spend is also a function of the purchase price of the car and your own preferences. Toyota clearly step across the line in the sand here.

Agreed. Nobody likes the feeling of being cheated.

But the problem lies with the manufacturers, not dealers. It is stupid to "fix" service costs instead of letting the dealership decide what he wants to charge for servicing. It is stupid because a service center in tier 2/3 city has much lower expenses than a dealer in Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore.

Instead of fixing costs, let the dealership publish how much they will charge (say Rs. 2,000 or Rs. 4,000) for labor. No additions, no useless work done, no pushy sales. There will be no profiteering because the customers will decide whether they want to visit this particular service center or go elsewhere. That is, let the "free market" decide the prices.

[AkMar]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It is stupid to "fix" service costs instead of letting the dealership decide what he wants to charge for servicing. It is stupid because a service center in tier 2/3 city has much lower expenses than a dealer in Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore.

The service labour & all other labour costs do vary based on tier of city at least for Hyundai. I'm sure it will be the same for many other manufacturers also.

In fact, Hyundai labour charges for Xcent are more than Grand i10. Now Xcent is essentially Grand i10 with a boot, so barring a few exceptions, efforts required for working on both cars should be the same. Still Hyundai charges a premium purely due to the "sedan" factor (notion of higher prestige associated with sedan). Isn't the extra charge over Grand i10 purely profit for dealers?

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by AkMar

Isn't the extra charge over Grand i10 purely profit for dealers?

Even with that and all the scamming these dealers indulge in, they seem to barely make 10 to 20% profit on servicing. Check this thread:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ips-india.html (Financials (income, expenses & margins) of car dealerships in India)

Overheads for each service center is different and it makes no sense to fix prices. Because of price fixing policy, their survival depends on scamming customers

[porsche_guy]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Agreed. Nobody likes the feeling of being cheated.

But the problem lies with the manufacturers, not dealers. It is stupid to "fix" service costs instead of letting the dealership decide what he wants to charge for servicing. It is stupid because a service center in tier 2/3 city has much lower expenses than a dealer in Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore.

Instead of fixing costs, let the dealership publish how much they will charge (say Rs. 2,000 or Rs. 4,000) for labor. No additions, no useless work done, no pushy sales. There will be no profiteering because the customers will decide whether they want to visit this particular service center or go elsewhere. That is, let the "free market" decide the prices.

I see 2 problems with this-

1. Monopoly- In Tier 2/3 cities where often the ASC in question will be the only one nearby will heavily overcharge customers and the worst part is that then the customers won't even be able to challenge the costs since their warranty would get void if they take it to an FNG. Imagine paying over ₹10,000 for the first paid service of say, a Grand i10. In that case, the service centre will just shrug and you won't have any other option too since it is the only Hyundai service centre in your city.
2. Manufacturer reputation- Cheap service is a huge plus point in India and manufacturers like Maruti won't like to remove that tag. Imagine 1 Honda and 1 Hyundai service centre in your city. Now the Hyundai one might just increase their labour charges exponentially and in turn will give bad reputation to Hyundai even if the notion that Honda service is cheaper is not true.

[ike]

Originally Posted by hserus

Back to the original topic, one thing my Mahindra SA for the Scorpio keeps pressing on me is "brake cleaning" - every service, he jacks up the vehicle and uses emery paper to clean the brake pads and brake disc. Fine, no harm no foul and he gets some revenue out of it that means he isn't too upset at my using my own engine oil from Amsoil and filters from Purolator / Sofima instead of the Mahindra ones.

I also allow the odd Brake cleaning, an AC disinfectant and the "MGP rust smash" in exchange for being allowed to use my own oil.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Unnecessary items are added to the list primarily because service advisors have end of the month 'targets' to meet.

To avoid this issue, I recommend the following -

1) Ask for a particular service advisor you have already done 'business' with.
2) Avoid getting the car serviced towards end of the month (when sales advisors are under maximum pressure to meet targets)
3) Pre-empt the service advisor by getting some useful extras done for the car. My favorite is 3M interior cleaning because it gets rid of dust and grime that has accumulated over the year. Another useful option is polishing and waxing.

Two more things:

1) I'm genuinely fearful that if we refuse all optional extras recommended by the service advisor, the dealer might just wash the car and hand it back to you!

2) The cost of servicing a car (Eg: Rs. 1,000 labor charges etc) fixed by the manufacturer is way too low. Think about inflation, employee salaries, dealership rentals etc. Just a tankful of petrol costs Rs. 3,500 which we don't mind paying every week.

I think that was a long justification for what is essentially

So I don't mind paying a little extra over the published "servicing costs" once a year.

I would put it bluntly, there is no need to justify why a dealer should overcharge you, when the parent company has set up a framework for what should be charged for what job and what should be done for that cost.

• Your fear should not exist in the first place. I believe we can easily find out what was done during service and what was not.
• Agree on the rapport part. But you can develop a good rapport even if you are pretty harsh on those guys. That rapport is developed with fear, and that works much better. If the service center understands you are a person who they cant mess around with, things get a lot better on multiple fronts, be it billing, attention to detail, etc. If we are not in a position to be able to judge if the oil is changed or coolant replaced, then that is something that can be fixed at our end. There is no guarantee that if we give someone extra money, we can make them more sincere. It is a false belief, and can only be a hope.
• Opting for cleaning jobs would be ok only when they are necessary. Last time I was recommended interior cleaning, I showed them the interiors and asked them if they can bring it to a better shape. That was the last time they ever mentioned about it. If ones car is already in a good shape, there is no use in opting for such extra treatments. When necessary, it is definitely good to be done, except that the previous point applies.
• The cost of jobs are not some number which is passed onto dealerships by parent companies. It is done with much regard to the current conditions, dealership demands, location, inflation and so on and is revised on a regular basis. If the labour costs for service are less, then that is a problem that the dealer should address with the company, not what customers should address to dealers. If that is the case, then the role of a parent company in this system is nullified. Dealers can just get freedom to charge customers how much they want. It is the absence of this freedom that makes them indulge in such malpractices. It is the absence of this freedom that differentiates a free market garage v/s an authorised workshop.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Your friendly neighborhood garage -

- Does not have a large garage situated in a prime location (meaning real estate rentals)
- Does not pay any taxes (GST, employee TDS, employee PF contribution and corporate income tax)
- Has low initial investment (no computers, lower manpower [receptionist, security guard, service advisors], no air-conditioned customer lounges etc)

A few more points to these observations:

• Nowadays not all ASCs are located in prime location. A lot of dealers have small workshops inside town and their main workshop will be somewhat away from the prime areas.
• FNGs are not always shops running beside the road. There are competent workshops which have good equipment and are tax compliant, but still charge meaningfully. By meaningful, their labour rates are as much as what the ASC might charge you, but they dont charge extra for stuff like brake cleaning, overhaul etc and charge a single fixed amount as labour for service. And they dont push you for unwanted extras.

ASCs are under a good amount of control by the parent companies. That is the benefit we get going to them. However, there is no obligation to make them happy by letting them fleece us. I pay XX amount for paid service, and I am entitled for whatever comes under that to be done to my vehicle. If not, they will be expecting an escalation from my side, which I believe is dealt with quite badly by the company as far as my experience with Maruti goes. In spite of being very finicky, my dealer has maintained real good rapport with them. All I offer them in return is a healthy chat whenever I visit them and respect to the mechanics if I get to interact with them. So my request is, please dont be afraid that your car will be mishandled, when you are in the hands of a company appointed dealer. That should rather be there in an FNG, since there is no escalation matrix.

[nkrishnap]

This is the case with almost all dealers barring a few exceptions here and there.

My colleague had paid for engine decarb service for an alto which had done 3600 odd kms. So nothing new with the kind of value added services that is being pushed. On an average, there is a minimum revenue target of 1500 bucks value added service per RO (Repair Order or Job Card done). So the value added services form a big part of the revenue for the dealerships more so after a few manufacturers providing AMC which can be opted at other dealerships of the same brand.

I have a come across a lot of such instances. Only way out is keep an eye for all such stuff, opt for only what you feel is required.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

3) Pre-empt the service advisor by getting some useful extras done for the car. My favorite is 3M interior cleaning because it gets rid of dust and grime that has accumulated over the year. Another useful option is polishing and waxing.

To be really frank, very few dealerships have good workforce to do even a simple wash. Getting the interior cleaning is still somewhat ok, polishing definitely not a good idea to get it done at the dealership as the car will end up having more damage than actually not getting it done. Close observation of your car which is polished each time during a service will reveal why.