[condor]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

It mixes gas and air, which escapes through holes where it burns. That flame is happening in the air.

I dont think it even does any part of the mixing. The "burner" is only distributing the cooking gas out thru the perforations. Mixing happens once the cooking gas is out side the "burner".

I too think - too much is made out of "brass burners".

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I don't think material is going to affect the efficiency of a burner. It mixes gas and air, which escapes through holes where it burns. That flame is happening in the air. It probably only matters that the burner doesn't melt .

I am answering my own question here, because I recently saw some references to "ceramic burners". These stoves have a ceramic mesh or plate that is heated to create radiant heat. I am not sure if they are any good for ordinary cooking, though it seems to be a favorite of those barbecuing.

https://home.howstuffworks.com/infrared-grill.htm
https://grillguide.net/grill-researc...nfrared-grill/

The evolution of infrared grills began in 1961 when Bill Best, founder of Thermal Engineering Corp., patented the first infrared burner. It was used for industrial applications, including tire manufacturing and giant oven systems used to dry automobile paint quickly. In the early 1980s, Best, a backyard griller and perpetual inventor, added a ceramic infrared burner to a barbecue grate he had fashioned for his personal use and discovered an accelerated cooking process that left fast-cooked foods succulent [source: TEC].

While the technology was quickly adapted for commercial use in steakhouses and other restaurants, it was a cost-prohibitive luxury for most home chefs until the expiration of Best's patent in 2000. Manufacturers, including Best's own company, then began introducing a new generation of moderately priced, gas- and electric-powered infrared grills aimed at attracting backyard cooks [source: Associated Press].

An infrared grill, instead of relying on hot air to transfer heat to food, uses an electric or gas element to heat a solid surface, which then radiates, or emits, far infrared waves directly into the food that sits on the grill's grate. The heating element also heats the air in the grill, creating some convection, but less air is circulated and therefore the food retains more moisture during cooking. With their higher temperatures, infrared grills can also cook food faster than standard grills.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by condor

I dont think it even does any part of the mixing. The "burner" is only distributing the cooking gas out thru the perforations. Mixing happens once the cooking gas is out side the "burner".

maybe, kind of, depending on the burner, but the right amount of gas and air must end up in the flame, or it will not be the right flame.

Actually, we have some difficulties with our KAAF stove sometimes producing a yellow flame. I understand that this indicates that deadly carbon monoxide is being produced, not to mention soot on the bottom of pans. It is time we got a technician back on this one.

[condor]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

maybe, kind of, depending on the burner, but the right amount of gas and air must end up in the flame, or it will not be the right flame.

In a regular gas stove, the empty part below the top piece serves as an expansion chamber for the cooking gas. Gas inside the cylinder is pressurised, and this small chamber becomes the intermediate section where the gas comes out via a very fine hole, expands and then is exposed to the open air after it comes out through the perforations that are in the burner. The working quantities of air and gas mix outside the burner - else it would have been a different situation, isnt it

[Aroy]

A gas burner is not as simple as we tend to think. The incoming gas is mixed with static air and forms an air-gas mixture. As we know an optimal ratio gives the best combustion - both temperature and complete fuel utilization. So the burner design matters.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ts_performance

The optimal combustion should give a blue flame. A yellow flame denotes incomplete combustion with a lot of unburnt carbon particle - too little air or too much fuel. In such case the burner has to be adjusted - change the jet, and clean the air passages.

As described in the above article the efficiency of domestic gas burners have increased over the years.

The only advantage of brass over aluminum in burners is that brass lasts longer, and does not deform with heat. The deformation is not a problem generally, but at times the flame temperature may get high enough to soften and deform the burner. I have experienced this phenomenon a few times, when the flame gets super hot and the wire stand we use sometimes to put small vessels glows red.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Aroy

In such case the burner has to be adjusted - change the jet, and clean the air passages.

Any online references to buy different-sized jets for the modern hobs? Ever since we switched over to Gail gas, I have been struggling to get the proper flame. The Gail technicians just file the existing jets to make them bigger without any proper measurement and results are inconsistent. As per the Faber technician, they make jets suited to LPG only and don't have anything for PNG. He got a couple of aftermarket jets but he was not keen to get multiple sizes and do trial and error.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Any online references to buy different-sized jets for the modern hobs? Ever since we switched over to Gail gas, I have been struggling to get the proper flame. The Gail technicians just file the existing jets to make them bigger without any proper measurement and results are inconsistent. As per the Faber technician, they make jets suited to LPG only and don't have anything for PNG. He got a couple of aftermarket jets but he was not keen to get multiple sizes and do trial and error.

Search for old independent gas parts store. Every city has one. Any older (40+) gas repair person will know where the spares are available. If every thing fails try a smaller jet. It will have a smaller flame but with full combustion it will be hotter and better than a larger jet which smokes soot.

[condor]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Any online references to buy different-sized jets for the modern hobs? Ever since we switched over to Gail gas, I have been struggling to get the proper flame.

Thanks, Jaguar. Your query will some of us.

May I ask which area ? Reason to ask is - as part of the preparations, GAIL folks have installed piping in our locality and we have one, too. Service is not enabled yet.

Originally Posted by Aroy

Search for old independent gas parts store. Every city has one. Any older (40+) gas repair person will know where the spares are available..

Isnt PNG a new one ? From what I remember - kerosene to LPG, and now PNG. I dont remember PNG being in use before, definitely not in Bangalore.

And yes, I am 40+ ... if that helps

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by condor

Thanks, Jaguar. Your query will some of us.

May I ask which area ? Reason to ask is - as part of the preparations, GAIL folks have installed piping in our locality and we have one, too. Service is not enabled yet.

I am in Bellandur. The service started before the pandemic here.

[Gansan]

^^ How is the service and how much is the cost difference as compared to LPG? Is the gas consumption measured through a meter?

[carboy]

Originally Posted by condor

Isnt PNG a new one ? From what I remember - kerosene to LPG, and now PNG. I dont remember PNG being in use before, definitely not in Bangalore.

PNG is Piped Natural Gas. It's the same as the CNG used in Cars. Bombay has it for more than 15-20 years, I think. Gas is piped into your homes just like water or electricity. Other than for the kitchen, it can also be piped to a gas geyser/boiler in your bathroom if you so desire.

It's through Mahanagar Gas here - the same people who run the CNG pumps for vehicles.

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ How is the service and how much is the cost difference as compared to LPG? Is the gas consumption measured through a meter?

In Bombay, there is a meter is installed inside your home. They come & take readings every month or sometimes every other month. It's usually much cheaper than LPG.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by condor

Isnt PNG a new one ? From what I remember - kerosene to LPG, and now PNG. I dont remember PNG being in use before, definitely not in Bangalore.

And yes, I am 40+ ... if that helps

What GAIL did the piping for is PNG. Piped Natural Gas.

Service has been in place in Mumbai for 20+ years now. Mahanagar Gas (MGL, a listed company and making good profits too ) is the entity that manages this. GAIL provides the infra and perhaps they have started the piping as well but end point connectivity is usually managed by a different entity. GAIL will also give the Gas in bulk to these service providers and not to end consumer.

There is Avantika Gas Natural in Indore (in place of MGL). Bangalore may have a different entity to do this.. Some private players are trying to enter here but that is yet to happen.

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ How is the service and how much is the cost difference as compared to LPG? Is the gas consumption measured through a meter?

Service is good and very easy once this is installed. Yes you have a separate meter for each connection and they take a reading every two months. You can also upload a photo reading online for automatic billing every alternate cycle.

Initially it was cheaper than Cylinders but over a period the cost is nearly the same between the two. Except that you do not get a subsidy on the piped gas. So if your consumption is within the subsidy limit, cylinders are cheaper. Otherwise rates are same.

The benefit is that there is no need to change the cylinders. After the initial setup of meter, there has never been any interaction required by us with the company. Representative comes every alternate cycle (once in 4 months) to take the actual reading.

[condor]

@carboy & Sunil:
PNG is new in Bangalore, and so is CNG. CNG stations are just coming up. Unless something has been in use for sufficient time, parts for the setup or people to set it up / resolve issues are not going to be found, are they ?

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by condor

@carboy & Sunil:
PNG is new in Bangalore, and so is CNG. CNG stations are just coming up. Unless something has been in use for sufficient time, parts for the setup or people to set it up / resolve issues are not going to be found, are they ?

From a setup perspective, hardly anything different is needed except for the Meter (for new connections) which is once in a while in short supply at MGL in Mumbai. Usual govt functioning speed I suppose.

You connect this pipe to your Stove just the way you connect the pipe from the LPG cylinder. The meter will have a nob to adjust the output of the gas but other than that, hardly anything else will be different. Some people connect this to their water geyser too but with Solar heaters being common now, that practice is not common now.

[adisan]

Originally Posted by roamer012

Wonder what role does the heat retention of a burner play in cooking?

Anyone who has observed the difference between frying mustard seeds on a vessel with copper bottom as opposed to one without a copper bottom, will find it easy to understand.

If the burner itself were to take time to heat up, the cooking time will increase. Basically it would be a waste of fuel. First the burner has to heat up, then the vessel, then the contents in the vessel.

Copper and brass are excellent thermal conductors, they do not take time to heat up. One more reason for choosing brass is it can withstand heat without deforming.

If this is wrong, I shall be happy to stand corrected.