[84.monsoon]

According to a news report on Times of India today, Amitabh Kant, the G20 Sherpa, has said at an event organised by the Mercedes Benz India Research and Development centre, that the 48% GST on hybrids will stay for a long period of time.

This seems to settle the ongoing suspense on whether GST rates on hybrids would be reduced. This is sad news for hybrid buyers and for the auto industry in general. The significant opportunity to save on fossil fuel imports and consumption, reduce harmful emissions, and get the "best of both worlds" in terms of range and power, as well as fuel economy, is being let go by this blunt move of the government.

There is no doubt the intense lobbying by Mercedes, Tata and M&M have contributed to this position of the government. The lobbying would have got to a much more shrill pitch, given the slumping EV sales recently, as buyers slowly back away from the initial euphoria of EVs ad they inderstand their reduced practicality and sharp depreciation burden. Manufacturers are having to discount heavily to move EVs and insurers are sharply hiking insurance rates for EVs in the face of high repair costs.

In many ways, the government is trying to forcefully grow a product category that the market is rejecting, by keeping prices of the alternatives artificially high through taxation.

[GTO]

Clearly shows the government's lack of understanding of hybrid benefits, and equally, their frustration with manufacturers (Maruti) trying to earlier market mild hybrids as "proper hybrids".

I believe full & proper hybrids (the kind we see in the Grand Vitara, Honda City & Innova Hycross) must and should get heavy tax benefits. Hybrid's are TODAY'S solution to fuel import burdens and pollution problems. Hybrid tech is capable of doubling (or tripling) the fuel efficiency of any car on sale. EVs are still a long way off from mass adoption. Even manufacturers have realised that and revised their lofty goals of going "all electric" by 2030. Hybrids don't need chargers at home or public charging infrastructure. Hybrids don't need dedicated all-new vehicle platforms.

Some food for thought = In 2023, even with a tiny number of models on sale, Hybrid cars have overtaken EV sales in India.

The fact is, a majority of customers still like their ICE cars .

The government shouldn't choose one over the other. Give benefits to BOTH fantastic new technologies. We need more hybrid car options in the 10-20 lakh space and that will only happen with government incentives.

[rkv_hunter]

I think the government is justified here in not giving similar benefits of BEVs to Hybrids.

Many manufacturers who do not have hybrid tech will need to invest in Hybrid tech if these benefits are given, it would be preferred that the investments go towards BEV tech instead in making it better and more affordable.

While BEV market has slowed down in India along with ICE, the slowdown is mainly because of limited models in the market, once the market has more models with better batteries we will see more adoption.

We have seen globally with the right technology BEVs can really grow in market penetration and Tesla and BYD have shown globally and made a real move with delivery numbers (not even talking about market caps) challenging the big auto makers.

Even our Indian manufacturers, Tata and Mahindra should invest and aim for that kind of performance. What Mahindra is developing under BE brand looks promising.

While complete movement to EVs may be far fetched we should push for at least 30-40 % by 2030. As per experts once a market reaches 8-10% penetration that is the turning point and then penetration is faster as the ecosystem of charging infra etc goes in a positive loop.

We should not decelerate that progress by getting hybrids in the equation and confusing customers and manufacturers of where to invest.

[MyLife_MyCar]

I don’t see much benefits from the hybrid tech. While it extends the range/mileage and reduces the emissions, it’s far from what a pure EV can do.

Comparing Hybrid to traditional ICE - it’s better in both range and emissions. However, if I talk only about the emission, taking a bucket (or 10s or 100s buckets) from an ocean makes no impact. Meaning, it won’t really improve the environment much given that there are many other factors contributing to the pollution.

Secondly, it would be expensive upfront and for maintenance later due to presence of both electric motor and combustion engine.

Comparing Hybrid to EV - Hybrid’s better in terms of range only. However, with new technology around the corner, the range of EVs would keep improving while the cost of batteries would keep decreasing. And there’s the benefit of zero emission.

So, a better strategy for India should be investing purely in EV to improve the infrastructure. The govt. is already stepping up the game in renewable energy sources and transmission lines to ensure the electricity is available even in the most remote places.
The next focus should be on boosting the local production of EV batteries and components that can reduce the upfront cost of EVs.

[nidhikapoor]

Hybrids have no benefits environmentally and they have the disadvantage of having two systems. Disadvantage in cost, weight and maintenance.

Better to have manufacturers press for BEVs. This is without a doubt and has been shown to be better in multiple studies.

Hybrids are being pushed by those who were asleep at the wheel when BEVs started emerging.

[84.monsoon]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Hybrids are being pushed by those who were asleep at the wheel when BEVs started emerging.

Much to the contrary, manufacturers who were asleep at the wheel, banking only on their traditional ICE engines or very easy-to-engineer BEVs are the ones trying to block strong hybrids. The key technology and engineering content in BEVs are mainly battery and motor technology. Most Indian manufacturers are importing these entirely, primarily from China.

On the other hand, making a strong hybrid requires significant engineering investments, in transmission technologies that can combine ICE and Electric Power, brake energy regeneration technologies, major changes in ICE engines to make them more efficient (e.g. Atkinson Cycle), as well as battery and electric motor technologies and overall system integration expertise, to make all of these work together seamlessly. Toyota and Honda have been making these investments in strong hybrid tech for 20 years, while other manufacturers were asleep at the wheel or barking up the easy-to-climb, pure EV tree. No wonder the only manufacturers to deliver viable strong hybrids to India today are Toyota and Honda (and Maruti, using tech borrowed from Toyota).

[nidhikapoor]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

Much to the contrary, manufacturers who were asleep at the wheel, banking only on their traditional ICE engines or very easy-to-engineer BEVs are the ones trying to block strong hybrids. The key technology and engineering content in BEVs are mainly battery and motor technology. Most Indian manufacturers are importing these entirely, primarily from China.

On the other hand, making a strong hybrid requires significant engineering investments, in transmission technologies that can combine ICE and Electric Power, brake energy regeneration technologies, major changes in ICE engines to make them more efficient (e.g. Atkinson Cycle), as well as battery and electric motor technologies and overall system integration expertise, to make all of these work together seamlessly. Toyota and Honda have been making these investments in strong hybrid tech for 20 years, while other manufacturers were asleep at the wheel or barking up the easy-to-climb, pure EV tree. No wonder the only manufacturers to deliver viable strong hybrids to India today are Toyota and Honda (and Maruti, using tech borrowed from Toyota).

Nope. BEVs are the future. Hybrids and ICE days are over. Besides, the very point you made that hybrids require significantly more engineering is what makes them more complex to manufacture and maintain. The 'very easy to manufacture' BEVs as you said, is their strong point. That's so obvious in your own post.

Toyota has been pushing all kinds of alternatives to BEVs. They have missed the boat and might not even exist a couple of decades down the line.

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Nope. BEVs are the future. Hybrids and ICE days are over. Besides, the very point you made that hybrids require significantly more engineering is what makes them more complex to manufacture and maintain. The 'very easy to manufacture' BEVs as you said, is their strong point. That's so obvious in your own post.

Toyota has been pushing all kinds of alternatives to BEVs. They have missed the boat and might not even exist a couple of decades down the line.

Well, everyone has hybrid tech except Indian car makers. They also have a hybrid variant of every car they sell outside India.
VW is redirecting its investments into ICE from BEVs. Ford is holding on and making bigger trucks/SUVs with only hybrid and no BEV versions.

BEV is the future. There is a present too

[Gupts007]

Promoting hybrids by giving rebates on absurd taxation is a double edged sword for the govt. Not only they will lose the tax component on the vehicle sales but also on the fuel, as the hybrids are more efficient.
The govt. is in a bit of a conundrum if you ask me. They want the oil bill to go down and save forex but if the oil consumption goes down, so does there massive collection of taxes on fuel.

I don't expect the govt. to give any rebate or be kind towards Hybrid/EV buyers. They want taxes and they will get them even if their implementation of higher tax on Hybrids goes against
their ostensible promotion of hybrids for environment causes.

[krrisdrive]

Why tax incentive is needed at all? Keep it same for all types and see how people vote with money.

Government is already manipulating fuel (both fossil and electricity) in innovative ways, then why screw up equipment too. Forcing a technological adoption through tax incentive is a bad policy.

[nidhikapoor]

Originally Posted by krrisdrive

Why tax incentive is needed at all? Keep it same for all types and see how people vote with money.

Government is already manipulating fuel (both fossil and electricity) in innovative ways, then why screw up equipment too. Forcing a technological adoption through tax incentive is a bad policy.

Not when the new tech cleans up our air. DO you have any idea how many preventable deaths pollution causes?

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

Well, everyone has hybrid tech except Indian car makers. They also have a hybrid variant of every car they sell outside India.
VW is redirecting its investments into ICE from BEVs. Ford is holding on and making bigger trucks/SUVs with only hybrid and no BEV versions.

BEV is the future. There is a present too

If the will is there BEVs can be the present. I think 95 percent of all cars sold in Norway last month were BEVs. They have incentives for BEVs and disincentives for ICE vehicles.

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

Well, everyone has hybrid tech except Indian car makers. They also have a hybrid variant of every car they sell outside India.
VW is redirecting its investments into ICE from BEVs. Ford is holding on and making bigger trucks/SUVs with only hybrid and no BEV versions.

BEV is the future. There is a present too

Indian manufactures do not have the expertise to make electric motors and controller for EV and Hybrid applications, which require high efficiency and light weight Induction and PMSM motors. Even in two wheeler space Ather, TVS, OLA etc have been using motors from foreign companies who assemble them in India.

The only made in India traction motors in a four wheeler are those powering Xpress-t EV, which is a 72v induction motor. Even fleet owners are not buying that, instead they are buying the one with Ziptron PMSM motor which Tata white labels.

If brands like VW and Ford themselves are reinvesting in Hybrid and ICE then why is EU and US taxing EV from China. The thing is legacy western auto companies do not want to go the EV route because they cannot make the fat profits that they make in IC and Hybrids, since most are importing EV components from China and are not vertically integrated.

They also cannot get the usual 1000% profit in sales of spares for IC and Hybrid cars and the dealers also loose out on labor cost for the frequently serviced IC and Hybrid cars.

The main concerns of western consumers are low range of EV in winters and the initial high electricity prices after the Ukraine conflict.

Japan state policy itself is unofficially anti EV because of the massive job losses it can cause in Japan auto industry.
Japan has the technical skills to make EV components, even on the battery chemistry for NCA/NMC they have Panasonic/Sanyo making 21700 and 4680 size cells. For LFP they had the Sony/Murata which where second to none in cycle life but they never developed a large size cell for EV. Toshiba has the best LTO battery used in commercial vehicles.

Meanwhile in China, they have EV that can drive close to 1000km at highway speeds without stopping to charge. Just a decade back they where behind Japan in every aspect of EV technology.

[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

If the will is there BEVs can be the present. I think 95 percent of all cars sold in Norway last month were BEVs. They have incentives for BEVs and disincentives for ICE vehicles.

The Norwegians are the greatest hypocrites on the planet. They make most of their electricity on renewables and have tons of free power, but get rich on oil and gas. Take away the power and Norway goes back to the godforsaken corner it was. One larger-than-normal storm in the North Atlantic would send them back to oil faster than a pig to potatoes. At the moment India can't even think of generating enough power on renewables alone, forget about 'little' technicalities like maintaining base load. We'll need many more nuclear reactors just for that alone, and then continue to extend amnesia to the amount of environmental destruction solar panels when installed outside cities, lithium mining, and other similar things will cause. There's no easy solution to this, and Indian car makers selling substandard cars, who found it easier to scale up to cars based on electric motors, have to do better, much better, but in a time scale unheard of. So the whole debate is pointless. As GTO said, hybrids are necessary at the moment.

Originally Posted by GTO

I believe full & proper hybrids (the kind we see in the Grand Vitara, Honda City & Innova Hycross) must and should get heavy tax benefits. Hybrid's are TODAY'S solution to fuel import burdens and pollution problems. Hybrid tech is capable of doubling (or tripling) the fuel efficiency of any car on sale. EVs are still a long way off from mass adoption. Even manufacturers have realised that and revised their lofty goals of going "all electric" by 2030. Hybrids don't need chargers at home or public charging infrastructure. Hybrids don't need dedicated all-new vehicle platforms.

In a couple of decades who knows what will be on top.

[nidhikapoor]

Originally Posted by AulusGabinius

The Norwegians are the greatest hypocrites on the planet. They make most of their electricity on renewables and have tons of free power, but get rich on oil and gas.

Sorry, but that is NOT hypocrisy. They provide a commodity that the rest of the world needs but themselves are well on the way to cleaning the environment.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Sorry, but that is NOT hypocrisy. They provide a commodity that the rest of the world needs but themselves are well on the way to cleaning the environment.

If a person or a government believes a commodity/substance is bad for their own/children/citizens consumption but makes money by selling it to others and uses that money for welfare of their children/citizens is not only a hypocrite but also a criminal. We all know who else operate in the similar manner.

Each country has its own challenges and opportunities. Just because it has worked in one place does not mean it will work everywhere.

For example, in Australia, last month Toyota Rav4 hybrid alone outsold all the EV sales put together. We do not have any special tariffs on Chinese Evs, so there are many budget EV options available here. Base trim Tesla model Y is cheaper than mid spec Rav4 hybrid and there are incentives to buy EV's. In spite of all these and negative press against Hybrids, Australian consumer chose Hybrids over EVs. Achieving price parity with hybrids is not enough for Evs if we believe in consumer behavior. I am not against EVs, I will definitely buy them one day, but not in next 5 years.