[master uio]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

According to a news report on Times of India today, Amitabh Kant, the G20 Sherpa, has said at an event organised by the Mercedes Benz India Research and Development centre, that the 48% GST on hybrids will stay for a long period of time.

Good Move to end the discriminations against ICE's

Until now the NGT Chairman Shitantar Kumar played God. Now Amitab Kant is playing God. He is directly strengthening the hands of the Chinese Govt. (EV Lithium Battery Mafia) who unethically mine in Argentina, Bolivia and Chile (ABC) of Lithium. With erratic power supply to Agriculture and Industries the government is ill directed by a band of fools in promoting EV's. The source of pollution is elsewhere - where they are not looking

[CarJunki]

It is a good sign that they want to stay with same policy (no matter how foolhardy that is) of high taxes across the types so that sales and consumption stay suppressed.
In fact it is best to make consumption prohibitively expensive by imposing high taxes and resultant destruction of industries that provide jobs (jobs leads to direct tax collections).

We should applaud the government for trying to encourage savings/investment by the earning population. So what if the high taxes will eventually take away your earning avenue.

[krrisdrive]

Originally Posted by itsbaman

EV charging infrastructure is no where close to be called as developed.

Since more noise is being raised on this issue, even highlighted as the only problem holding us to zoom past on the EV adaptability, I suspect government may come up with innovative(!) ways to mitigate it. Something like National Battery Charging Authority of India who will build charging infrastructure using, errr, tax money. Or a battery charging cess on top of IT to subsidize battery infra companies.

Disclaimer: I am not against EV, I am only saying put all of them in marketplace and let the best win or coexist.

[Beemer1077]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

Not here to debate the benefits of ICE vs EVs vs Hybrids. However, 48% GST, and 20% RT (in TN), on any non-sin-good is atrocious!

More than atrocious, it is a clear lack of brains and intellectual abilities by those framing policies. We already pay much higher prices for fuel, most of which is not even free from adulteration, and this makes it much absurd. Hence, given such irresponsible decisions, coupled with bad quality roads, civil disobedience can make an impact.

EVs only make sense if they are used for short distances as the benefits are higher. On highways, the speeds are higher, limiting efficiency, as regenerative brakes are not used frequently. For the same reason, I am opting for a plug-in hybrid instead of an EV as my next ride - either a BMW 330e, 530e, X5, or Audi Q5 hybrid, which are plug-in. If regular hybrids, I will opt for Honda CR-V, Toyota Camry, or explore any others available. Tax credits I will get are enormous - up to $7,500!

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductio...-2023-or-after

Furthermore, for reducing pollution, we are already blending gasoline with ethanol (blends in US is 10%, I think in India is 15-20%), while for diesel, we got biodiesel. So while these steps work, the authorities should promote hybrids with some benefits and EVs with higher benefits, depending on price and affordability.

Other than that, there should be no GST applied to self-propelled vehicles like bicycles, or even electric bicycles. They do not need insurance, license, registration, and of course, are immune to traffic penalties(except for riding on expressways only). Plus, now we can carry bicycles on Metro-Trains, with racks provided in Mumbai Metro, without any worry for parking(cops can't tow away bicycles parked in no-parking zone).

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by nri2ri

but I am 100% sure of any incentives to hybrid going to the margins of manufacturers. Do not trust maruti to come up with democratized hybrids for the masses.

Bang on!!! They had nine years since the announcement of FAME 1 to come up with a democratized hybrid or a BEV. They didn't do both. They are still talking about showcasing their BEV in Bharat Mobility Expo 2025. The car will be available for Indian buyers in mid of 2025.

Originally Posted by qaqa

If BEVs are very easy to engineer, what is stopping a Toyota or a Honda from introducing an EV range?

It is easier to manufacture. It still needs investment in R&D, supply chain setup, road worthiness testing and much more. More on why Toyota failed to make successful BEVs -

2012 - 2015 While China and Tesla was looking at making EVs (China investing in battery tech as well), Toyota was trying to perfect the Hydrogen FCEV and laughing at the Chinese.

Come 2019-2020, electric vehicles were a super success in China and US. What did they do, they went into joint venture with BYD? - Press Release - Toyota and Press release - BYD. Outcome - Toyota launched BZ3 in China only in 2023 - Link. So it is not so that they didn't do anything, whatever they did they did it late. Now none knows what are the preconditions of this JV as BZ3 has not been exported to any other country.

Originally Posted by krrisdrive

That is clearly disincentive to hybrids. How dare OEMs can bring this tech which will reduce fuel consumption while we transition to pure EVs.

Question is why Toyota not able to bring price parity between a Strong Hybrid vehicle and pure ICE vehicle after 25 years of research into the tech? Is it that price parity between Strong hybrid and pure ICE vehicle is not possible? Is it that Toyota wants to pocket the profits it makes by selling at a premium to an pure ICE vehicle?

Originally Posted by sassid

As I write, we have a three hour power outage scheduled for the day. I shudder to think what would happen when the whole of the state is reliant on the power grid for mobility or how much the power tariffs would be ratcheted up given the higher demand and the lower capacity to service.

As of today, I know a person who can charge their EV with their rooftop solar and also power their house. They can even power their house at night using 5 KWH LFP batteries that were charged with rooftop solar during the day. They use electric cooktops since they have solar power to run them day and night. This same person has a solar pump setup in their fields to irrigate their crops. This shows the art of possible today. When we will reach a mass electrification stage, there will be solutions to cater for failures.

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

The somewhat confusing and contradictory stances from various arms of the government on EV subsidies and taxation seem to continue. Transport minister Nitin Gadkari has said yesterday that he believes electric vehicles no longer need subsidies.

He was not talking about GST on vehicles. GST on vehicles is ideally a consumer expense. He was talking about subsidies being given via FAME I and II and currently EMPS.

Originally Posted by itsbaman

The one segment where I see EVs becoming successful is public transport, but that too mostly owned by the government.

It is not so. Private EV public transport is also being promoted. Please read this - link (Transportation is transforming in NCR | Saw EKA Mobility's EKA 9 bus at Cyber City, Gurugram)

Originally Posted by master uio

He is directly strengthening the hands of the Chinese Govt. (EV Lithium Battery Mafia) who unethically mine in Argentina, Bolivia and Chile (ABC) of Lithium. With erratic power supply to Agriculture and Industries the government is ill directed by a band of fools in promoting EV's. The source of pollution is elsewhere - where they are not looking

6kg of Lithium is used in 60 KWH of battery. The battery is 100% recyclable. They are incentivizing battery production in India. What is the state of each battery manufacturing project? - Please read here - link

Originally Posted by Beemer1077

I am opting for a plug-in hybrid instead of an EV as my next ride - either a BMW 330e, 530e, X5, or Audi Q5 hybrid

Nobody is selling plugin hybrids in India. No mass market manufacturer even has plans to bring it in next 1 year.

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

The UP government's decision to waive off road tax on hybrids has to do with a court ruling, and not to benefit hybrids as such

Exactly the road tax waiver in UP was an outcome of a court case which was based on wording of the EV policy of UP.

People interested in the court proceedings -

[Beemer1077]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Nobody is selling plugin hybrids in India. No mass market manufacturer even has plans to bring it in next 1 year.

I live in Houston TX, now moving to Chicago. After driving my 2019 BMW 330i xDrive for long, I feel a plug-in hybrid makes a lot of sense now.

[3WiseMen]

I believe this one is based on lobbying and not on logic.

If the idea was to save environment, then a considered view had to be made on the impact a car's manufacturing and useful life cycle will have on environment, and not just on emissions during the useful life cycle.

Hybrids, especially the self charging hybrids has substantially less environmental impact as compared to EVs. Especially if you consider Toyota's rule of 1 self charging HEV = 6 PHEV = 90 BEV.

Hybrids are also the most efficient solution to replacing Diesel cars, which is a poison fuel as per the Government now. Every year JD Power rates Hybrids, especially self charging ones to be the most reliable cars - even more than ICE.

And let's not forget, in India as a country, our primarily source of energy is still from burning fossil fuels.

Policy decisions need to be made on what's good and right for the country and not in which technology some lobbying car manufacturers have invested in.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by 3WiseMen

If the idea was to save environment, then a considered view had to be made on the impact a car's manufacturing and useful life cycle will have on environment, and not just on emissions during the useful life cycle.

They’re comparing battery material, not total carbon emissions. Both are different

This is the biggest flaw with 1:6:90 is that it is hyper fixated on the battery capacity, not the vehicle production emissions.

Hybrids, especially the self charging hybrids has substantially less environmental impact as compared to EVs. Especially if you consider Toyota's rule of 1 self charging HEV = 6 PHEV = 90 BEV.

90 hybrids will still use 90x the steel, aluminium, glass and plastics as one EV uses.

90 hybrids can never be cleaner than one EV. Their comparison only counts battery capacity, assuming it to be supply constrained (which it is not) such that it can either make 1 EV or 90 hybrids.

Looking at the Volvo LCA report, which considers the XC40 EV and ICE model, the EV incurs 18 ton production emissions while the ICE model incurs 14 ton. Excess emissions from 80kWh battery is 4tons.

If you adjust total emissions, that’s 1 hybrid = 0.7 EV or the emissions of making 7 EVs is same as making 10 hybrids.

Suddenly, it’s no longer 1 vs 90 like their propaganda document claims.

Every year JD Power rates Hybrids, especially self charging ones to be the most reliable cars - even more than ICE.

Is that an attribute of hybrid by itself or by virtue of most hybrids being Japanese made?

I don’t know if the report you’re referring to is the same one, but the one of the proxy for reliability is number of recalls. Since NHTSA classifies an OTA update, (even if done remotely without visiting dealer) as a recall, EVs are rigged to fail in such surveys.

And let's not forget, in India as a country, our primarily source of energy is still from burning fossil fuels. Policy decisions need to be made on what's good and right for the country

There is another active thread on energy independence which discusses it in great depth : https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post5836573 (Energy Independence - A myth or reality?)

Aside from that, even with current state of the grid, EVs are better than ICE/hybrid https://www.iea.org/data-and-statist...ent-calculator

[WorkingGuru]

Hybrids are priced at a premium. A lower tax rate is justified only if the products democratise the technology.

If you need to run 5 lakh Kilometres to recover the additional cost of Hybrid version over the non-hybrid version, then these cars aren't meant for the masses.

So let's not insult the intelligence of the decision makers, this decision is not thoughtless.

[redeff]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Sorry to say, but I don't expect much from babus who barely made it past 10th. I mean, lets face it most of the politicians are almost educated like this only. Heck if they had sense, they would've given incentives and accelerated on setting up charging stations at every fuel bunk to aid for EV adoption. I feel poor guys couldn't make out the advantages of a hybrid and hence decided to leave the tax as is.

Maybe a bit off topic, but Politicians are not Babus. The 'babus' are highly educated IAS, IRS etc, officers that have quite an effect on government policy. You cannot put chargers in place when cars do not sell. This is a fact. It takes investment and the investment comes primarily from private players that are profit motivated and driven. All those who are currently investing in the electric network are doing so with an eye on the future.

I do have an EV. I get upto 450 kms (I know this is rare from a lot of EVS in India) on a full charge. For my urban cycle, I charge once a week from 20% to 80%. I do have a charger at home. I find the car incredibly convenient.

As prices fall, as technology improves we will see a great change. But this does need friendly practices. If there was no incentive, we would not see Tata and Mahindra bet big on TVs like they have. Policy is something that needs to have a long term vision. It also needs to be flexible and evolve as per time. I hate the prices of new cars and I think the high GST on SUVs is atrocious, given the state of our roads. But I do appreciate that if there is no policy that is forward thinking, we will stagnate. This is precisely what had happened to us in the past before liberalisation.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

Hybrids are priced at a premium. A lower tax rate is justified only if the products democratise the technology.

If you need to run 5 lakh Kilometres to recover the additional cost of Hybrid version over the non-hybrid version, then these cars aren't meant for the masses.

So let's not insult the intelligence of the decision makers, this decision is not thoughtless.

Ermm... Lets say we take the Toyota Hyryder S Hybrid and Toyota Hyryder S automatic. There is a difference of ~3.43 lakhs between the two in on road pricing. That is with the full 43% GST and usual road tax applicable. Now, with this difference, it will take around 1,00,000 km to be run before the difference is recovered. Now, if the GST is set somewhere between ICE and BEVs and there is some road tax benefits, am sure hybrid premium will be small enough to recover easily within a year or even less. In markets like KSA, difference is just about 1-2 lakhs for models like Corolla. Would happily pay 1-1.5 lakh premium for a gain of theoretical extra 7+ km/l. Good for consumer, good for import bills.

BEVs have 5% GST rate and way less or even NIL road taxes applicable. Even then, the price difference between ICE and BEVs is about 3+ lakhs. So, imagine the same without any tax benefits. The running cost of BEVs are far cheaper, almost negligible, no doubt about that. But majority of the customers will hesitate to buy BEVs. Especially if it crosses 15 lakh price mark.

So yeah, no problem in insulting the intelligence of the decision makers, as they have proven themselves in various other automotive issues too.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by DicKy

BEVs have 5% GST rate and way less or even NIL road taxes applicable. Even then, the price difference between ICE and BEVs is about 3+ lakhs. So, imagine the same without any tax benefits. The running cost of BEVs are far cheaper, almost negligible, no doubt about that.

Except for Punch and XUV400, the price gap between EV OTR prices has come down quite a lot.

Reason for these outliers is the fact that they are not on same generation, in punch, EV got facelifted and for 400, 3XO came which reduced the value proposition of outdated 400 which didn’t get any cuts.

In some cases, EV is cheaper than diesel.











The difference decreases as you move up the segment ladder because the taxes on ICE cars keep increasing with segment. There are no other monetary benefits for EV than the GST cut and Road tax exemption.

[svsantosh]

This move can mean 2 things from the GOI POV.

Either...
(a) They have realized the EV dream is best left as a 4am dream and not enforced as a law. No one in the entire pyramid of EV business is ready for that yet. So Hybrid is the way forward as a one-up from regular ICE cars, let us milk that tech for another 15 years at least.

or

(b) they realized China's slowdown is for India's benefit and after the on-going Lull/Silence in the Global Economy withers out the India stands to gain big way from future car demand. Avoid hybrid imports/spares/tech which will dent the existing car industry economics, extract the max of existing supply chain and hope to improve the export numbers.

I know both are contradicting one another but I do not see any other fathomable reason for this high tax on the next best thing in the car industry.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by DicKy

That is with the full 43% GST and usual road tax applicable.

Lets look at this with available data -

1. Govt provided GST incentive on Hydrogen FCEV - GST - 12%. The thinking was long term that Toyota's hydrogen tech will come to fruition. Status - There is one hydrogen powered car in India which is used by Road and Transport Minister. Toyota's hydrogen car push failed across the world.



2. Govt provided GST incentive on Hybrid cars - GST on hybrid cars is 28% for upto 4m and upto 1200 cc engine Petrol or upto 4m and upto 1500 cc engine Diesel. But Toyota launched hybrid in cars beyond 4m with 1500 cc petrol engine. Honda also launched only City hybrid with 1500cc engine. Govt had the vision that manufacturers with 25 years of hybrid experience will launch more mass market hybrids.



All data taken from SIAM website

Finally coming to price difference of Toyota Mild hybrid vs Strong Hybrid.



Toyota pockets Rs. 2,30,000 per Strong hybrid on ex-factory price. Even after 25 years of having the technology they cannot price Strong hybrid near to a mild hybrid.

The ex-showroom difference between the two models - Rs. 2,75,000. The claimed mileage of Mild Hybrid is 20.58 km/l and Strong Hybrid is 27.97 km/l. If we take out the running cost which average price of petrol at Rs. 100, Mild hybrid runs at Rs 4.85 per km and Strong Hybrid runs at Rs. 3.58 per km. This gives a running cost advantage of Rs 1.3 per km, you will need to run the car 2 lakhs kms to recover the cost.

Mileage figure taken from hyryder brochure

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

The difference decreases as you move up the segment ladder because the taxes on ICE cars keep increasing with segment. There are no other monetary benefits for EV than the GST cut and Road tax exemption.

Don't know what else is there to have regards to monetary benefits other than a fat cut in GST and exemption from road tax.

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

2. Govt provided GST incentive on Hybrid cars - GST on hybrid cars is 28% for upto 4m and upto 1200 cc engine Petrol or upto 4m and upto 1500 cc engine Diesel. But Toyota launched hybrid in cars beyond 4m with 1500 cc petrol engine. Honda also launched only City hybrid with 1500cc engine. Govt had the vision that manufacturers with 25 years of hybrid experience will launch more mass market hybrids.

Aah, the magnanimity of the authorities to copy paste the same sub 4m norms and sacrifice the 1% compensatory cess. Such a great incentive. We are already losing global models availability and having puny engines in larger cars due to this rule. Now expecting hybrids too. Don't worry. Maruti is cooking up something as they have always done to take on such visionary rules.

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Finally coming to price difference of Toyota Mild hybrid vs Strong Hybrid.

Toyota pockets Rs. 2,30,000 per Strong hybrid on ex-factory price. Even after 25 years of having the technology they cannot price Strong hybrid near to a mild hybrid.

The ex-showroom difference between the two models - Rs. 2,75,000. The claimed mileage of Mild Hybrid is 20.58 km/l and Strong Hybrid is 27.97 km/l. If we take out the running cost which average price of petrol at Rs. 100, Mild hybrid runs at Rs 4.85 per km and Strong Hybrid runs at Rs. 3.58 per km. This gives a running cost advantage of Rs 1.3 per km, you will need to run the car 2 lakhs kms to recover the cost.

Super bad at maths but here goes. Have taken the onroad pricing of the Hyryder S and Hyryder S hybrid. They have a difference of 3.43 lakhs in Kerala for on road pricing. Have taken the petrol price as Rs.108/ltr. The average mileage as 13.25km/l for the non hybrid and 21.5km/l for the hybrid. Mileage figures taken Autocarindia test figures. So would have to run 1.10 lakh kms to recover the extra cost of the hybrid.