[Lobogris]

I would definitely go with Curvv 55 variant. The main reason would be ADAS. I can never have a vehicle without adaptive cruise control and AEB. In addition, the longer range, electric tailgate and electric charge port are very welcome additions as well.

[Efficient drive]

Originally Posted by GTO

- Love the Coupe SUV styling (which is surprising as I have hated the Coupe-SUVs from BMW & Mercedes)

- Looks much fresher

- Better tech

Mirroring my thoughts, I always hated the coupe styling from BMW& Mercedes, but somehow accepted and liked the stance especially from the rear end.
But TATA should have differentiated the interiors slightly from the Nexon though.

[lina]

Originally Posted by jigbarai

One thing to consider practically here is - assuming most people will use the 15A charger at home, Nexon MR can be charged 'overnight' and others cannot be.

And it is important for Tata EVs to be more regularly/almost everytime charged to 100% for proper cell balancing that happens at 90 or 95% (just doing top-ups regularly has proven to be troublesome).

Tata better fix the last part. Its not really cell balancing. Its more of the calibration required to figure out the correct SoC.

The culprit here is the LFP battery which gives pretty much consistent voltage across the SoC range. Thanks to this advantage, it is very difficult to estimate the SoC on LFP. The problem is solved by software which as all things software is very hard to get right.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

Somehow all the mainstream media including team-bhp keep missing out how important charging speed is and it's barely even mentioned in comparisons.

Real world example of how a 500 KM drive on a highway will play out:

Going by the hassles mentioned in above assumptions, people should rather Wait out for Cars with Range-Extenders (or onboard generators). Sadly no one offers it today in India for Mass segment.

I am avoiding the Battery EVs for this reason standalone. Would rather buy a Diesel.

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Going by the hassles mentioned in above assumptions, people should rather Wait out for Cars with Range-Extenders (or onboard generators). Sadly no one offers it today in India for Mass segment.

I am avoiding the Battery EVs for this reason standalone. Would rather buy a Diesel.

Yes, similarly, no plug-in hybrids available in the market. I would prefer them over normal hybrids or BEVs.

[shortbread]

Tata.ev release

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Going by the hassles mentioned in above assumptions, people should rather Wait out for Cars with Range-Extenders (or onboard generators). Sadly no one offers it today in India for Mass segment.

I am avoiding the Battery EVs for this reason standalone. Would rather buy a Diesel.

Originally Posted by santosh.s

Yes, similarly, no plug-in hybrids available in the market. I would prefer them over normal hybrids or BEVs.

The above post by me was to illustrate road tripping between two EVs meant to help prospective EV buyers.

For folks not used to driving EVs over long distances, it may feel very cumbersome but in reality it's not, especially in India. The reason is that in most long journeys spanning above 5 hours, it's common to take a break for a meal or restroom.

I just finished an impromptu Bangalore - Chennai round trip. Over the entire trip, I spent 15 minutes blocked because the car had to charge. This was possible because of the ZS EV's fast charging capabilities as well as the extensive high speed DC charging infra that has come up on all my regular routes.

Every other time, the car was either charging overnight at the hotel or while we were having a meal. On this trip alone I have saved around Rs 8000 compared to what the Honda CRV would cost me.

I have clocked 24k KMs over 1.5 years on the ZS EV as my primary vehicle with most of the mileage on long distance driving. As a previous petrol engine lover, I have become a fan of the electric powertrain and love pushing it hard getting ridiculously low efficiency numbers.

I am done buying ICE vehicles but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

My advice to friends and family has been consistent. Hybrid is the worst of both worlds, more complexity, exponential increase in chance of fires, mileage deterioration over the years due to battery degradation caused by high number of cycles, high prices.

Buy a car that makes you happy, ICE or EV doesn't matter.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

The above post by me was to illustrate road tripping between two EVs meant to help prospective EV buyers.

I still think Manufacturers are doing a big mistake by putting bigger and bigger batteries which are making EVs so much costlier.

For example if tata had given half the size Battery in Curvv (lets say 30KWH instead of 55 KWH), and instead put their regular 1.2 revotron engine as on-board electricity generator, not only the cost/Price of the vehicle would have been lower but it would have quelled the range-Anxiety that is faced by all the customers. Assuming 8-10 Lakh of Battery + Electric Motors cost (going by battery replacement costs of Nexon), a half sized battery would save 4 lakh easily while an engine + alternator + fuel tank + fuel Lines combo should not cost more than 2.0 lakh, so a half-sized battery+ Onboard-generator is a win win for all.

I have driven Bangalore Chennai Non-stop and I dread to think driving an EV for even that distance. You have to be ready with full charge even before starting it from busy bangalore traffic. lets say if you have to go to office from home and you have to start from office to your destination (lets say to Chennai) you will be anxious throughout the day. One has to be alert all the time and plan it meticulously which eats up so much of your time.

There are many other scenarios in which on simply can not rely on availability of chargers on the way and/or in-fact you may be pressed for time. On board generators solves all those issues.

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I still think Manufacturers are doing a big mistake by putting bigger and bigger batteries which are making EVs so much costlier.

For example if tata had given half the size Battery in Curvv (lets say 30KWH instead of 55 KWH), and instead put their regular 1.2 revotron engine as on-board electricity generator, not only the cost/Price of the vehicle would have been lower ...
Assuming 8-10 Lakh of Battery + Electric Motors cost (going by battery replacement costs of Nexon), a half sized battery would save 4 lakh easily while an engine + alternator + fuel tank + fuel Lines combo should not cost more than 2.0 lakh, so a half-sized battery+ Onboard-generator is a win win for all.

What you are asking is for Tata to launch a Hybrid car which is taxed at about 48% GST vs 5% for EV.

Also note that the battery replacement cost charged by Tata to end user is not the same price at which Tata buys battery cells. The 55kWh battery pack won't cost more than 7 Lakh, which is a lot more than the 2.7 Lakh cost for bare cells that make up the 55kWh pack, which CATL or BYD or Gotion may sell to OEM customers. The BMS, Bus bars, connectors, cooling channels and battery casing can add another 1 Lakh in cost but when you double the battery cells, the cost of other components inside the battery pack doesn't double, at most it may increase the cost by 30k.

So adding a engine, fuel lines, fuel tank with pump, exhaust that includes expensive catalytic converter, imported ECU won't be cheaper than doubling the battery size. Now factor in the GST and road tax benefits of EV.

That said Tata is still making boat load of profit with the Curvv EV. They can easily price it lower than their IC line up.

Unlike the Punch and Nexon IC vehicles which are at a lower GST rate, the Curvv IC is taxed upto 14% higher than its smaller siblings. So Curvv EV with just 5% GST should not be priced that high.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I have driven Bangalore Chennai Non-stop and I dread to think driving an EV for even that distance. You have to be ready with full charge even before starting it from busy bangalore traffic. lets say if you have to go to office from home and you have to start from office to your destination (lets say to Chennai) you will be anxious throughout the day. One has to be alert all the time and plan it meticulously which eats up so much of your time.

I have been driving between Bangalore and Chennai for almost 13 years now.

Obviously that meant a fair bit of driving was on my Honda CRV which was always fun.

But guess what? It has become more fun doing this trip on the EV so much so that me and wife randomly decide to go to Chennai to meet our friends.

What makes it so fuss free and fun?

1. I like a smooth refined drivetrain and hate the diesel clatter. The EV is unbeatable on that front.
2. More than top speeds, I prefer quick acceleration especially in the Indian context where maintaining the same speed over significant distances is not possible. The ZS EV excels on that front with loads of torque available all the way into illegal speeds.
3. Icing on the cake has been costs. A trip on the CRV would easily burn Rs 8k for a round trip vs a fraction of the cost on an EV.
4. Keeping aside the actual costs for a second, every time I used to push the CRV hard, I would see the mileage drop to 6 or 7 KMPL which used to always make me feel guilty. On the EV i hit super poor efficiencies with a smile on my face.

What about charging?

1. Turn on charging at night, you wake up with a full 100% SoC in time for you to leave.
2. We no longer even check Plugshare or any of the apps. Trunk routes out of Bangalore like Chennai, Coimbatore have an abundance of charging options. In my trip last week I spent 15 minutes charging while having a cup of coffee and using the restroom. Turns out even this was too long a charging stop because we reached Chennai with 60 KMs of range to spare. For context: this spare energy is enough to run the AC for 10+ hours in case of a traffic jam. EVs excel in traffic.
3. We usually stay in hotels and i am yet to encounter a hotel which didn't have dedicated EV charging facility or refused to assist with 15A plug point.

Moving to EVs is a step change and there is a huge fear of the unknown. I completely understand that. I would be kidding if I told you that I didn't have moments of jitters before buying an EV as my primary car for highway drives but it has been an extremely rewarding experience for me after having clocked 24k KMs.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by DIY410

What you are asking is for Tata to launch a Hybrid car which is taxed at about 48% GST vs 5% for EV.

I am no expert on Taxes, but I would tend to think that Extended Range / On-board Generator cars are primarily still Electric cars so should be taxed at same GST rate at EV i.e. 5%. I do not think on-board generator vehicles are treated at par with Hybrids simply because typical Hybrid vehicles are driven directly by engine/transmissions combo while onboard-generator vehicles are still driven by electric Motors so should be completely different case.


I would love to see an example of an onboard generator vehicle and its Tax treatment in India, let me know if there are any such vehicles at present in Indian market.

Thanks for sharing knowledge on Battery cost and other and other things which I had no knowledge about. Great to know.

Originally Posted by DIY410

but when you double the battery cells, the cost of other components inside the battery pack doesn't double, at most it may increase the cost by 30k.

that said, the above statement is difficult to digest. If the cost of doubling the battery pack is only about 30K, what stops OEMs from doubling or even tripling the battery size and increasing the range.

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I am no expert on Taxes, but I would tend to think that Extended Range / On-board Generator cars are primarily still Electric cars so should be taxed at same GST rate at EV i.e. 5%. I do not think on-board generator vehicles are treated at par with Hybrids

The moment you use a engine to either drive the wheels or to charge a battery its called a Hybrid. The one which you are talking about is a range extender.
Check this thread (Hybrid Drivetrain Options: Navigating the Advantages and Disadvantages in today's context)

Originally Posted by anu21v

Thanks for sharing knowledge on Battery cost


that said, the above statement is difficult to digest. If the cost of doubling the battery pack is only about 30K, what stops OEMs from doubling or even tripling the battery size and increasing the range.

If you read carefully, I said that the cells totalling 55kWh cost 2.7 Lakh but the battery pack as a whole would cost no more than 7 Lakh. The higher price of the pack is due to import duties, freight and making a battery pack out of the cells. So if you want a 110kWh capacity worth of cells(not the whole battery pack), it shouldn't cost more than 5.4 Lakh before taxes and freight.

Now the part where I say it costs 30k is the additional bill of material that goes inside a battery pack like bigger metal casing, additional cell balancing hardware, bigger or higher capacity main BMS, additional Bus bars, cell level fuses, connectors, cooling channels, vibration and insulation foam etc. So for the 110kWh pack it will cost 5.4 Lakh for just the cells and an additional 60K on top of the cost of the same components inside a smaller 30kWh nexon battery pack, excluding taxes and freight.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by DIY410

The moment you use a engine to either drive the wheels or to charge a battery its called a Hybrid. The one which you are talking about is a range extender.

Yes so I may have been inadvertently discussing about range extenders. Is the GST on Range-Extender vehicles are also taxed at 28% / 42% or is it taxed at 5%? is there a range extender vehicle in India at present as an example?

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Yes so I may have been inadvertently discussing about range extenders. Is the GST on Range-Extender vehicles are also taxed at 28% / 42% or is it taxed at 5%? is there a range extender vehicle in India at present as an example?

The GST is 48% and currently there are no range extender vehicles sold in India.

[GTO]

Mod Note: No more off-topic posts please.