[svsantosh]

Dubai Temperature touched 42'c today... By noon we had stopped out post-lunch walks around the free zone, it is inhuman to step out here.

My colleague & owner of a Tesla Model-Y took out his phone, turned on Tesla app on his mobile phone and saw the inside car cabin was at 60'C (parked out in the open), remotely turned on AC to full blast 19'c and behold, in under 3 minutes the car cooled down and he was able to walk to the car, drove away in comfort.

It is something mortals like me will surely yearn for.

[pandabear]

Shouldn't this be a better, convenient and more popular solution?

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by AVIS

Car colour makes a big difference as well -

Yup, undoubtedly. White has an SRI of 0.67 while black has .3. So that's easily 10deg Celsius on a normal day. The video is the easiest representation. Thanks for sharing

Originally Posted by AVIS

Using a windshield sunshade is very effective -

Tried it for a few days, marginally better but the glass stays at very high temp.(above 60 deg.), the folks in the front can even feel the heat radiating from the glass initially. Had to run the AC slightly for cooling it.
The unavailability for all glasses and hassle of putting it with dashcam and mobile holders/other mounts, obstructing it, made me look for other options.

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Dubai Temperature touched 42'c today.

I think Dubai also looks at WBGT temperature to decide on working hours for laborers. The situation had got so desire that a labor abusive country like it, is forced to take this measures.

[/quote]turned on Tesla app on his mobile phone and saw the inside car cabin was at 60'C (parked out in the open), remotely turned on AC to full blast 19'c and behold, in under 3 minutes the car cooled down and he was able to walk to the car, drove away in comfort.
It is something mortals like me will surely yearn for.[/quote]
The car preconditioning, remote or preprogrammed is one feature that has been a worthwhile addition especially for tropical countries like ours.

Originally Posted by pandabear

Shouldn't this be a better, convenient and more popular solution?

That would be a good one if they could make it close to glass to cut off any incident light. And also automatic, not manual. I think i am getting too demanding

[Burgman_tales]

Question for EV Fan. The reflective half cover does such a wonderful job by reflecting away sunrays away. So is it so reflective that it'll cause eye discomfort for people looking at it ? If I cover my car parked on road with it, will it be a safety hazard for other drivers due to it being too bright?

[sumannandy]

When possible, please keep the windows open slightly.

I am not sure about the temperature inside, but this works for me. Temperature inside is almost similar to temperature outside.

[navinmra]

Originally Posted by pandabear

Shouldn't this be a better, convenient and more popular solution?

This will absolutely work because there is a gap between the cover and the car which will a) further reduce temperature than if the cover were in direct contact with the car and b) prevent any moisture getting trapped in the car which when combined with heat is the recipe for accelerated rusting.

I tried to search for car canopy but didn’t find one that looks like the one in the pic.

[navinmra]

This canopy looks interesting! Not sure if it gets broken by curious folks or strong winds!

https://youtu.be/ge729U9k5Dg?si=-KvS6I6jy6s0XEr5

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by Burgman_tales

So is it so reflective that it'll cause eye discomfort for people looking at it ? If I cover my car parked on road with it, will it be a safety hazard for other drivers due to it being too bright?

It is not mirror finish type reflective, it is more like the reflective tape/sticker we see on cars & roads, it is that type of reflective.
Till date, no one has approached me with complaints of hard on the eyes, they were more interested & curious on the product.
Definitely not a hazard(I have parked & put up this cover on roadside, in front of traffic cops as well).

Originally Posted by sumannandy

When possible, please keep the windows open slightly.
I am not sure about the temperature inside, but this works for me. Temperature inside is almost similar to temperature outside.

While it does make sense in terms of thermodynamics, the experience of pests intrusion just makes it a no-go for me.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by dkaile

That is why I am a strong opponent of this Sky Roofs and Full length Sunroofs etc. especially in North India. Sunroof's are NOT practical for North India. Period. And people in Delhi NCR realise that sooner than later, in our summer heat, how tormenting it can be. Manufacturers and car buyers need to get their head around this fact.

Another useless feature, especially in North India, is Cruise Control and ADAS. I could never use cruise control on my Superb for more than 5 minutes in one go, even on the latest Delhi-Meerut Expressway, it is so crowded most of the times. And with ADAS, I am more likely to cause an accident than any convenience...

Fully agree with you regarding sunroofs and completely disagree regarding ADAS. The very reason you mentioned is why we need adaptive cruise control. I use it daily without any issues and I would never, ever, purchase a vehicle without it. You can’t use your cruise control for long as it doesn’t adapt to the traffic in front. With adaptive cruise control, your vehicle would automatically slow down and speed up as required.

[Chhanda Das]

Very nicely done and kudos to your efforts especially in such blisteringly hot conditions. Fun fact : Many car campers use a similar reflective half cover especially in the hotter countries like ours but generally in a partial tarp-like setup.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

The energy used up for the cooling, was almost impossible to accurately figure out, atleast with the ICE’s. No consumption figures in liters of fuel or electrical units in KWh.

One aspect that I cannot agree with you here is your quoted statement above because it is indeed possible to figure out the fuel consumption for cooling the cabin of any modern car having an internal combustion engine (ICE) with reasonable accuracy.

The video below was captured by my son during the pandemic-induced lockdowns and you can clearly see the effects on fuel consumption on his smartphone when the air conditioning is turned on and off. The smartphone was connected to our first generation petrol automatic 1.6 Creta 2017 with a cheap aftermarket OBD2 (On Board Diagnostics version 2.0) device via Bluetooth and the video was captured after a cold start.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=u_gEJTzWlKU

I hope this clarifies things

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

With adaptive cruise control, your vehicle would automatically slow down and speed up as required.

I used adaptive cruise control quite a lot when I drove in a 'road-disciplined' country like Ireland recently. And I agree, it was a boon 'there'. But here in 'The North', with people cutting you left, right and centre, I see it as a huge 'risk'. And I am saying this with the gravity, it deserves.

Right now, ADAS is in it's infancy in India, with, afaik, less than 1% of the vehicles actually using it. So I may get a stretch or two, once in blue moon, when it could be actually useful for me. But the type of road discipline and 'jungle raaj', I see on the roads here everyday, massive jams on the tolls every weekend from traffic returning from Mussoorie back to Delhi, and seeing the traffic worsening every year, even with newer and newer highways coming up. Kanwar Yatras, hijacking major Highways for weeks. I crawled back from Mussoorie recently, on my superbike (fully enabled with cruise control and what not gadgetry), facing nearly 100kms of bumper to bumper traffic out of the 200km journey. What a harrowing experience it was! And, if one thinks all this will disappear in the future, or our population explosion is stopping any time soon, is living in whacko land!

This will get worse and then the training imparted to our truck drivers and cab drivers is a big question mark. Do you think they are ready for ADAS with the impunity they get their licences here? I have serious doubts and in fact can forsee this tech doing more harm than good here.

So it will be sometime before I see actual changes on the ground level to actually convince me that this TECH is relevant for India. Right now it isn't and I will stick to my stand.

Nice to get a discussion going though it might be for another topic.

Cheers...

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

Fun fact : Many car campers use a similar reflective half cover especially in the hotter countries like ours but generally in a partial tarp-like setup.

I had seen even a lot of cabbies in cities, trying to manage a quick nap under a burning sun with blankets to the same effect(i guess operators don't allow them to use fuel to run AC).

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

One aspect that I cannot agree with you here is your quoted statement above because it is indeed possible to figure out the fuel consumption for cooling the cabin of any modern car having an internal combustion engine (ICE) with reasonable accuracy.

Agree with this as a possible method of consumption.

But feel,accuracy can still be a concern. From the point of fuel burning to the final compressor consumption/load there are a lot of losses and in addition to that, some estimations/calculations would be required. These estimation/calculations could also vary, due to a lot of factors like ambient conditions, vehicle operating condition etc.
Basically the same estimation may or may not hold, if ambient conditions are different or if vehicle had a cold start or already hot after a long running. So, it needs a recalculation of estimates every time, if we want a higher accuracy.

With EV the load of the AC is specifically & precisely displayed.

And secondly OBD2 and a bit of technical know how is required with ICE vehicles. With EV's it's could be on Infotainment or the manufacturer app.

Hence, i felt the accuracy and ease was definitely higher with EV.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

The video below was captured by my son during the pandemic-induced lockdowns and you can clearly see the effects on fuel consumption on his smartphone when the air conditioning is turned on and off.

Impressive. would definitely like to know how much was the consumption he recorded in liters or KWh equivalent. Would be good to see his data on the Creta as well.

[Chhanda Das]

Originally Posted by EV Fan

But feel,accuracy can still be a concern. From the point of fuel burning to the final compressor consumption/load there are a lot of losses and in addition to that, some estimations/calculations would be required. These estimation/calculations could also vary, due to a lot of factors like ambient conditions, vehicle operating condition etc.
Basically the same estimation may or may not hold, if ambient conditions are different or if vehicle had a cold start or already hot after a long running. So, it needs a recalculation of estimates every time, if we want a higher accuracy.

With EV the load of the AC is specifically & precisely displayed.

Accuracy is indeed a concern with all electronics in all cars of all fuel types. For example, EVs' battery management systems (BMSs) need to be calibrated during every service which means that they are used for some time in a miscalibrated state as they are not serviced every day. Just like the burning of fossil fuels in ICE cars, the charging/discharging of EV batteries are chemical reactions too. So inaccuracies are a real possibility with EVs as well. Recalculations of estimates are needed for EVs too since the battery (pack) will not hold the exact same amount of charge or discharge the same amount every single time. And a difference in voltage will cause a difference in amperes delivered to the air conditioner's compressor too. A major proof of this inaccuracy in EVs is the inconsistent consumption of battery power with the same load and this is seen in mobile phones, laptop/tablet computers, etc too. In summary, just because it is an EV, we cannot assume that it is more accurate than an ICE vehicle.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

And secondly OBD2 and a bit of technical know how is required with ICE vehicles. With EV's it's could be on Infotainment or the manufacturer app.

Accessing such information in EVs is definitely easier but it is not too hard in ICE vehicles either. All modern vehicles have OBD2 or higher version ports in them. About the technical know-how, if my stupid self with nearly zero academic background in science (apart from Political Science ) could do it then I strongly believe that almost everyone can do it.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

Impressive. would definitely like to know how much was the consumption he recorded in liters or KWh equivalent. Would be good to see his data on the Creta as well.

Sadly, he didn't record anything other than what you might have already seen in the video. This was because the original purpose of the video was to demonstrate the addition of a missing feature in our Creta. The first generation prefacelifted Creta (2015 to early 2018) didn't show live fuel consumption rates. The video was intended as a demonstration of the fact that the feature was indeed there and could be accessed via a smartphone or an aftermarket Android head unit (with Bluetooth/Wi-Fi) even though Hyundai chose not to show it

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

Accuracy is indeed a concern with all electronics in all cars of all fuel types. For example, EVs' battery management systems (BMSs) need to be calibrated during every service which means that they are used for some time in a miscalibrated state as they are not serviced every day. Just like the burning of fossil fuels in ICE cars, the charging/discharging of EV batteries are chemical reactions too. So inaccuracies are a real possibility with EVs as well. Recalculations of estimates are needed for EVs too since the battery (pack) will not hold the exact same amount of charge or discharge the same amount every single time. And a difference in voltage will cause a difference in amperes delivered to the air conditioner's compressor too. A major proof of this inaccuracy in EVs is the inconsistent consumption of battery power with the same load and this is seen in mobile phones, laptop/tablet computers, etc too. In summary, just because it is an EV, we cannot assume that it is more accurate than an ICE vehicle.

Kindly do not consider my explanation as an attempt to discredit your experiment - it's accuracy or the data extracted . It does exactly what the intent was, the real time fuel consumption of the car as a whole.

My explanation is more geared to the point that, when an ICE engine operates it powers up the entire ecosystem of belts/pulleys.
So the fuel consumption that we see in the video, is used to run everything, all the engine/transmission components and the accessories - timing belts, alternator, water pump, power steering pump, or air conditioning compressor etc. The list is quite exhaustive.
So technically the fuel consumption we saw via OBD2 output is a sum of all.
First step would be isolating it down to the AC compressor.
And then there are the losses of energy transfer from engine to the AC's compressor.

So the derivation from the liter/hour seen in the video to isolate AC compressor's consumption needs to account for all these intermediaries and then the conversion losses and that too over different ambient conditions. That was the estimation/calculation accuracy concern i meant when it came to indirect calculation for AC consumption, especially if we are looking for real time values.

In contrast the KW load shown is EV's is at the AC compressor's inverter terminal. There are no moving parts, it is almost an end point consumption.
So there is no calculation required. It's the isolated consumption of just the cooling circuit, displayed real time.

The inaccuracy of "measurement systems" was never the concern.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

A major proof of this inaccuracy in EVs is the inconsistent consumption of battery power with the same load and this is seen in mobile phones, laptop/tablet computers, etc too.

Respectfully, this is the only statement i would disagree with.

Load is never same, the load variability of our driving style simply based on gradient and traffic (even in presence of a gear based transmission system), over a few minutes can be all over the chart.

Even with mobile phones, laptop/tablet computers, etc, load variability due to user screen access, background consumption of apps, networks, parasitic drains are well documented.
Same load would be a battery connected to a resistor, if that's the case then the estimate once set could remain accurate for thousands of cycles.

But these load variability discussions, would be out of scope of this topic. Hence, would not like to bring it in for the risk of digressing from this thread.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

In summary, just because it is an EV, we cannot assume that it is more accurate than an ICE vehicle.

EV systems need these energy data to give range estimates, ICE's don't need it, atleast, not at the level of criticality that EV's require. So I would say that EV's need to have a more accurate onboard system for this, while an ICE vehicle can do without this altogether.
So it is upto the manufacturer to decide whether they want to show this data or try to keep the costs down in case of an ICE vehicle. But with an EV, the manufacturer does not get to overlook and choose to do without this, an accurate measurement comes as a part of the system.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

Accessing such information in EVs is definitely easier but it is not too hard in ICE vehicles either. All modern vehicles have OBD2 or higher version ports in them.

No doubt about that and i completely second that.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

Sadly, he didn't record anything other than what you might have already seen in the video. This was because the original purpose of the video was to demonstrate the addition of a missing feature in our Creta.

Yup, the purpose was different, the fuel consumption/hour data. Though, i would still struggle to isolate the real time AC consumption from that: not upto that challenge

I have been a follower of your interesting DIY projects, the solar exhaust was a cool one(literally).

[Chhanda Das]

Originally Posted by EV Fan

Kindly do not consider my explanation as an attempt to discredit your experiment

What are you even talking about ? Such a thought never even crossed my mind because what my son captured in the video wasn't even an experiment to begin with, technically speaking. Disagreements are natural in a healthy discussion.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

So the fuel consumption that we see in the video, is used to run everything, all the engine/transmission components and the accessories - timing belts, alternator, water pump, power steering pump, or air conditioning compressor etc. The list is quite exhaustive.
So technically the fuel consumption we saw via OBD2 output is a sum of all.

You are absolutely correct here but let me clarify a few things. Our car has a timing chain instead of a timing belt. Our car does not have a power steering pump. Instead, it has an electronic power steering (EPS) motor. Now coming to my son's video in question, it shows two scenarios relevant to our discussion.
Scenario 1 : It shows the fuel consumption when the car is on but AC is off.
Scenario 2 : Fuel consumption when the AC is on while all other conditions are the same as in Scenario 1.
In the video, we can clearly see the immediate changes in fuel consumption rates after switching to Scenario 2 from Scenario 1 and vice-versa. Hence, we can safely assume that the AC system is directly responsible for those particular changes in fuel consumption rates.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

So the derivation from the liter/hour seen in the video to isolate AC compressor's consumption needs to account for all these intermediaries and then the conversion losses and that too over different ambient conditions.

The conversion losses and the energy consumption of the intermediaries are nearly the same to make a measurable difference in both Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 in my son's video at that ambient temperature.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

In contrast the KW load shown is EV's is at the AC compressor's inverter terminal. There are no moving parts,

The AC's compressor itself is a moving part. Just because you are seeing the KW load at the AC compressor's inverter terminal does not mean that what you are seeing is the power consumption of the AC system. For example, you did not account for the radiator fan which is another moving part and the EV's AC cannot function without this just like in an ICE car. The difference is that in an ICE car the radiator fan runs all the time (unless it is too cold) while in an EV the radiator fan runs only when either the AC is turned on or when the batteries start becoming warm. In summary, we cannot assume that an EV is more accurate in showing power consumption figures than an ICE car or vice-versa.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

Respectfully, this is the only statement i would disagree with.
Load is never same, the load variability of our driving style simply based on gradient and traffic (even in presence of a gear based transmission system), over a few minutes can be all over the chart.
Even with mobile phones, laptop/tablet computers, etc, load variability due to user screen access, background consumption of apps, networks, parasitic drains are well documented.
But these load variability discussions, would be out of scope of this topic. Hence, would not like to bring it in for the risk of digressing from this thread.

I completely agree with you here in a real-world usage situation. However, my statement about the load was for usage in a controlled testing environment and the requirement for constant recalibration in EVs with real world usage essentially to highlight the inherent inaccuracies in EVs in nearly all situations.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

EV systems need these energy data to give range estimates, ICE's don't need it, atleast, not at the level of criticality that EV's require. So I would say that EV's need to have a more accurate onboard system for this, while an ICE vehicle can do without this altogether.
So it is upto the manufacturer to decide whether they want to show this data or try to keep the costs down in case of an ICE vehicle. But with an EV, the manufacturer does not get to overlook and choose to do without this, an accurate measurement comes as a part of the system.

I would beg to disagree here and say that range accuracy is critical for all vehicles of all fuel types and I will never forgive Hyundai for not providing something as basic as this when nearly everyone else provides that even in lower-segment cars.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

I have been a follower of your interesting DIY projects, the solar exhaust was a cool one(literally).

Thank you but most of them have been done largely by my son and not by me. And we did not add any solar charging capabilities to that car cabin exhaust/chimney and instead chose to run it on 5 volt direct current