[vinj14]

Originally Posted by ChristComesSoon

Quite shocked at how people have been calling this pricing as 'Amazing' and 'beating expectations'.

Take a step back and look through the tech and the value proposition.

1. EVs are mechanically simpler than ICE engines. They are to be cheaper than ICE.

2. Batteries degrade by a lot in a few years - making the most costly component non-serviceable & a huge ownership cost.

3. A high acceleration figure is usually impractical, except that it drains the battery & puts incredible stress on the cooling system.

4. How did an economy like India suddenly start saying 45L is now affordable, even for upper-middle-class families?

5. The logistics of delivering power to these cars for charging becomes impractical given the types of wiring commonly found to homes, and in homes.

6. Haven't we observed the challenges with EVs when their batteries sustain minor scrapes from routine road driving, rendering them difficult or impossible to service?

see: $60,000 to replace battery. The battery costs more than a brand new car! -- https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=dr3mFzh0KSk



Am I missing something here?

Couldn't agree with you more! With the battery warranty about to expire and battery technology moving leap and bound every year, these cars would be worth nothing after 5 years. So in typical chinese fashion you 'buy cheap, enjoy the use and then junk!' So for me personally, I'll give this one a pass. I got my X3 30i pre-owned 1.5 years ago. Apart from the pure driving pleasure it gives, today i'm getting offers very close to what i paid 1.5 years ago. So today, with 50 big ones to spare, I'd be looking at another pre-owned X3 / X4 / GLC/ 530D and the likes...Heck, if environmentally conscious side of me wakes up, i'd still probably choose the camry hybrid over this!

That being said, the pricing of BYD seal just reveals how colossally over priced cars like the nexon.ev are! You get 10 times the car for double the price! So if you are someone who has completely jumped on the EV bandwagon, i can see why the BYD seal appears mouth-watering!

[Kevinrevvz]

Originally Posted by evolvo

Gonna happen…I’m guessing it will be the Japanese first, as they seem the most head-in-sand-and-wish-this-all-goes-away about EVs

A little birdie told me with 100% certainty that the upcoming Maruti EVX and its Toyota counterpart will use BYD batteries. Maybe even the exact same battery from the Atto 3 and base Seal. In fact the battery kits have already landed.

Rebadging BYDs would be one way of saving the Japanese’s future!

[Love4Cars]

Originally Posted by vinj14

Couldn't agree with you more! With the battery warranty about to expire and battery technology moving leap and bound every year, these cars would be worth nothing after 5 years. So in typical chinese fashion you 'buy cheap, enjoy the use and then junk!'

How do you say a Seal would be nothing after 5 years, when warranty is till 8 years for all EVs for that matter? Also, as seen in US (in studies) battery life of EV cars is beyond 2000-3000 cycles which in this case even considering 400 Km range is 8-12 Lakh Km!
A luxury car like BMW X series can only dream of such mileage numbers without reliability issues and expensive upkeep.
Also, if warranty ending meaning zero value is true then all VAG cars having DSGs would also be Zero value but they are not.
BYD is at least 3-5 years ahead of India's current products or even globally. If at all, the prices may increase once the GOI starts reducing the subsidy/increase GST.

[Venkatesh]

BYD Seal spec comparison with Kia EV6, BMW i4, Hyundai Ioniq 5, BYD Atto 3.

[avishar]

Originally Posted by abhiijithbhatn

Factors that Indian manufacturers have huge disadvantage and favor BYD:
1. China's push to EV was from 20 years back
2. The Chinese government pushing core research in Rare Earth, Battery technology, motors with lot of FDI. Check scientific research papers published in this space. This gives companies easy access to top research and talents at a fractional cost.
3. Hacking and Espionage of successful companies.
4. Access and control of raw materials needed. It is the batteries that cost more money and its cost is more or less commoditized. European union has calculated the cost of raw materials and there finding is that chinese cars are subsidized to a point that they are selling at loss for every car they sell.
5. The Chinese business practice of dumping, destroying the native market players, and then later capture and controlling markets are well known.

Yeah and what is Indian OEM's advantages? To be capable of signing buyer-agreements for parts? Import all critical motors, controllers, microprocessors, batteries, chips, displays without investing much in R&D, and then be protected by 100% duties? For example, Mahindra's entire INGLO-platform based range depends on motors and components from Volkswagen's MEB. Infact, Mahindra was also exploring getting motors and batteries from BYD too.

Atleast the Chinese with their subsidies are capable to creating world-class products and winning export markets.

[antz.bin]

To be very truthful, Indian OEM Maini was literally one of the first to get an EV to market. An OEM Mahindra acquired and subsequently drove to the ground and lost all its advantages.

India was exporting EVs to Europe in 2001. Much before the Chinese even woke up. The Chinese now sell us EVs like MG Comet that are not too different from the ones Indians were making 20+ years back.

[haskelerator]

Look at the review and comparison on Carwow. Things are not as rosy as it seems. Much lacking in the handling department and can't be compared to any Tesla, let alone a BMW or Porsche.

Irrespective of what we may claim, I guess we are still easily swayed by just some performance figures and a low price. How the power is put down matters a lot. No wonder the Koreans have our market cornered and Ecosport, Endeavour are gone. :(

https://youtu.be/tezLYZHWkK4

[vinj14]

Originally Posted by Love4Cars

How do you say a Seal would be nothing after 5 years, when warranty is till 8 years for all EVs for that matter? Also, as seen in US (in studies) battery life of EV cars is beyond 2000-3000 cycles which in this case even considering 400 Km range is 8-12 Lakh Km!
A luxury car like BMW X series can only dream of such mileage numbers without reliability issues and expensive upkeep.
Also, if warranty ending meaning zero value is true then all VAG cars having DSGs would also be Zero value but they are not.
BYD is at least 3-5 years ahead of India's current products or even globally. If at all, the prices may increase once the GOI starts reducing the subsidy/increase GST.

EV car prices seem to be on the wane. Better ev cars are coming out cheaper every year than the year before. Opposite of what’s happening with ICE cars. What used you get you 3.0 litres 250+ hp, now gets you 1.5 litres and half the power! That’s from a value perspective.

Battery cost is massive in an EV! Would you spend big money on a 5 year old well maintained EV knowing that battery warranty ends in 2-3 years?? I certainly wouldn’t!

Finally if you believe EV cars are as reliable as ICE cars, I think there’s data to show that it ain’t the case.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...319986842.html

You spoke about VAG cars and DSG.. My answers there is pretty clear too. Would I choose an out of warranty polo gt tsi or a 3 year old nexon ev? Do I really have to answer that question? A 2015 polo gt tsi still holds great value for a reason. Let’s see a nexon ev holding the same value after 6-7 years.

[camaroon]

The strategy of undercutting the competition price using mass production with government subsidies, killing the production abilities of the competition and then leveraging production monopoly has been tested and proven. Now it has come to automobile sector. However competition is good for the end customer for price discovery and reduces complacency on others.

[Love4Cars]

Originally Posted by vinj14

EV car prices seem to be on the wane. Better ev cars are coming out cheaper every year than the year before. Opposite of what’s happening with ICE cars. What used you get you 3.0 litres 250+ hp, now gets you 1.5 litres and half the power! That’s from a value perspective.

So we have two choices:
ICE whose prices are increasing and value quotient is decreasing and EV where battery prices are getting cheaper every year and value quotient is increasing.
Hypothetically after 8 years, a Nexon EV battery of today may cost same as a DSG replacement in a VAG. So even if the battery fails outside warranty, the cost of replacement will be much cheaper than what it is today.

If EV prices start increasing (which they will after the initial blood bath / GST benefits), a Nexon EV will retain value same as an ICE Polo TSI.

For Luxury cars, just look at the prices of 8-10 year old cars in Delhi. That is actually worth nothing as well.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by abhiijithbhatn

Factors that Indian manufacturers have huge disadvantage and favor BYD:
1. China's push to EV was from 20 years back
2. The Chinese government pushing core research in Rare Earth, Battery technology, motors with lot of FDI. Check scientific research papers published in this space. This gives companies easy access to top research and talents at a fractional cost.
3. Hacking and Espionage of successful companies.
4. Access and control of raw materials needed. It is the batteries that cost more money and its cost is more or less commoditized. European union has calculated the cost of raw materials and there finding is that chinese cars are subsidized to a point that they are selling at loss for every car they sell.
5. The Chinese business practice of dumping, destroying the native market players, and then later capture and controlling markets are well known.

We had Reva in 2001, electrical motors like a induction motor is more then 100 years old.

Indian manufacturers are not willing to put the R&D to decrease the electrical eddy current losses. Remember a 1.5hp crompton induction motor weights 40kg vs a decade old 2014 Tesla induction motor which weights 36kg but is 384hp.
Today's cybertruck induction motor a decade later is even more lighter and more efficient.

LFP battery, we had chinese manufacturers like Wangxiang group which purchased the bankrupt A123 systems a US company in 2012 for around $200 million.

Why didn't any companies in India purchase them. Because some where busy building a big personal skyscraper. Then in 2022 Reliance bought some of the same factories from another US compnay which had bought the factories from A123 located in China. While the Chinese Wangxiang still owns the patents and IP.

Why in 2022, why is Japan still so far behind in EV. Why is EU scrambling to tax chinese EV. Why is Reliance only now opening a solar panel plant when they could have done so a decade or so back with all their wealth.
Its because of their own greed milking the fossil fuel industry whether its from refining selling fuel, plastics, making ICE cars EU, Japan, USA. Its only because of Tesla that caused the US and EU companies to wake up.
Japan had a state policy to promote ICE and Hybrid cars soley because of job loss that EV brings.

China knew its engine tech is rubbish, so they went with EV. That is also a reason why you see so many 2 wheeler startups in India for Electric. But look at the big three Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha. I still hear crickets as far as Electric two wheelers from Japan.

If anything Japan and EU needs to do espionage on China for EV battery tech.

[darkchild82]

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

I was in China last year. The number of electric cars and companies that I saw were scary. I walked into a car showroom ( I was told it was a start up - which had employed ex-BMW designers) and was greeted with a car, the Avatr 11, the likes of which I had never seen. It had a 700+km range, had 578bhp all gizmos like pano sun roof, 3 digital screens, driverless piloting facility and the works. It was priced at the rupee equivalent of 39.99L OTR. I was left wondering what would happen to our automotive industry in case such cars (at such prices) were to come to our shores. I will leave the images to do the talking.The future is here, domestic OEMs better start shaping up.

And this is the current state of Avatr



And the state of HiPhi: HiPhi halts all production with immediate effect in China

And the state of Neta, another EV startup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWZYyFQWu8Q

Expect many more such news about Chinese EV brands in 2024

[Nanolover]

Wanted to clarify a point here. Electric car GST of 5% is applicable only for cars manufactured/ assembled in India. For BYD, since it's imported, full import duty is applicable.

This makes the smart pricing even more surprising!

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by Nanolover

Wanted to clarify a point here. Electric car GST of 5% is applicable only for cars manufactured/ assembled in India. For BYD, since it's imported, full import duty is applicable.

This makes the smart pricing even more surprising!

Every EV gets 5% GST added if its sold in India, on top of the 15% CKD, 35% SKD and 70/100% CBU import duties.

I think BYD wants to make their cars popular in India, brand building exercise without spending on marketing. Let the product i.e word of sight and word of mouth do the talking.
A person in the market in the price bracket of Toyota Fortuner can now get a car which is AWD and which does 0 to 100 in 3.8 second, so this car is going to get a lot of eyeballs. I do believe that BYD would have got more sales if they launched the Seal U which is the SUV version.

BYD if you are reading this please reduce the price of Atto 3.

[vinj14]

Originally Posted by Love4Cars

So we have two choices:
Hypothetically after 8 years, a Nexon EV battery of today may cost same as a DSG replacement in a VAG. So even if the battery fails outside warranty, the cost of replacement will be much cheaper than what it is today.

If EV prices start increasing (which they will after the initial blood bath / GST benefits), a Nexon EV will retain value same as an ICE Polo TSI.

For Luxury cars, just look at the prices of 8-10 year old cars in Delhi. That is actually worth nothing as well.

If the nexon battery becomes very cheap then so would the car no? I don't see a situation where battery prices become very cheap but the car somehow holds its value.

Anyways, i think it boils down to your macro view. If you believe EV's are the future, then it makes sense jumping in early when all these tax benefits apply. I'm an EV skeptic. Global slowdown in the EV space, companies slashing prices, companies going back on the EV goals, etc etc..

Guess we have diametrically opposite views when it comes to this. Lets agree to disagree and let the discussion on the BYD Seal continue in a productive way.