[ferrarirules]

I did EV vs Hybrid comparison as they are the cleaner alternatives to pure ICE cars available in India today. Still if we do EV vs Hybrid vs Diesel from financial perspective, EVs are cheaper to buy. The top model Seltos or Creta Diesel automatic costs upwards of 23 lakhs. Further I see the following challenges with diesel cars

1. Diesel cars are running out of policy favours. Example - Delhi NCR 10 year ban for diesels.
2. DEF/DPF issues
3. Diesel is much more polluting for environment as compared to an EV or a Hybrid.

[OpenRoads]

The is a lot of talk around cost and features of these vehicles. For me I will stick to Hybrids for one and only one reason.

Range. With normal petrol 40l tank I drove for 900kms. At last I got anxious and thought that there might be some issue with the fuel gauge and went for a refill. It seems there was still some left to light the fuel indicator.

While I am all happy for emerging EV sector but but will not put my money on something for which I need to plan my trip considering another factor. I would not want to drive around anxious if the next charging stop would have a working charger.

Unless India comes up with charging stations like Tesla in US or other developed countries it would be a hard sell unless you buy a car just to drive around the city. Which is a big no for me.

[ike]

Originally Posted by GTO

The choice of hybrids is way too limited today and that's only because of Toyota's lethargy.

Toyota has never been bothered about it's Indian customers. This is a manufacturer that has a wide range of models in it's portfolio but at one point in time were offering just Etios/Yaris, Innova and Fortuner in India. And what is essentially a poor man's car in all mature markets is sold at a premium here. I really can't understand why the Hilux is a "premium pickup" here(of course it is a CBU) when it is a hearse carrier everywhere else. I come across a lot of jingoism on the forum encouraging boycott of certain manufacturers due to their country of origin but I'd rather boycott OEMs that show a stepmotherly attitude to the Indian market despite being able to sell their cars at huge margins.

[OpenRoads]

I grew up reading about Prius and it's technology marvel. At least they got some version of it to India after 20 years. Yes we are left behind in lot of factors but then there are other manufacturers selling same engine over decade in different shapes and sizes and of course added features. So choice is pretty clear to me.

[DarthVeda]

Not having the 18L MG ZS Executive is a crime! To me, that specific model trumps all others in that price range (<20L).
Else if budget is a constraint (<20L), I would go for Tata Nexon LR.

[84.monsoon]

For me, it is Hybrid anyday. Voted for the Grand Vitara due to its better looks over the Hyryder.

EVs completely eliminate the fun of spontaneity associated with travel. Often when I have a day off during a Friday or Monday, I plan a last minute out of town trip late one evening and I am off early the next morning in my Diesel Thar. Imagine if I had an EV, I would have to worry about charging it fully before the trip, and plan multiple stops during the trip - essentially planning every last detail and yet driving down the beautiful roads of South Tamilnadu with range anxiety, instead of gay abandon - especially in the Indian scenario where there is still not enough of reliable and convenient charging infrastructure.

During the recent Chennai floods all of the owners of EVs that had even been mildly flooded reported that their vehicles had to be totally written off due to battery damage. In the case of mild hybrids or strong hybrids, it is possible to replace the small hybrid battery at a fraction of the cost of the overall car.

EV manufacturers are trying to build a narrative that their vehicles will hold their value over a long time. The upcoming steep depreciation of EVs in the used car market, as a phenomenon has not yet been understood or fully factored into the pricing of new EVs. This depreciation will be many fold more than the reduction in the prices that we are seeing on the new EVs.Tata is trying to make hay while the sun shines with their exorbitant pricing.

Who would want to buy a used first generation Tata Nexon EV today, which had such a small battery and range, when one can buy the same car with a lot more range and power as a new car in the market.

The Mercedes India CEO recently wrote an article arguing how one should not compare an EV to a smartphone. The flimsily concealed reason behind his strongly argued article is, this kind of comparison will really hurt the pricing power of the EV makers. However much they try to drum up this version of the story, the reality is that EV prices will behave not very much differently than smartphone prices due the rapid technological change in this industry, driven both by advances in battery technology and software. The depreciation in the used EV market will be dramatic, and this trend will be fully discovered only when sufficient number of used EVs start flooding the market in the next 2-3 years. The real effect of this depreciation will have to be accounted for in the pricing of the new EVs as more of the buyers go through an EMI route, with the EMI being calculated based on residual value of the cars .

As incremental costs per KWHr of battery capacity keep coming down, most new EV offerings will move rapidly to highest practical battery capacity for the car size. To take a smartphone anology, remember how, even 4-5 years ago, pricey iphones used come with 32GB storage and now all the Chinese low to mid range phones costing as low as 10K , offer a minimum of 128 GB.

So mid size and higher SUVs will move to 80KWHr and smaller SUVs and sedans will move to 60KWHr. The MG4 launched in the UK has close to 80 KWHr battery on a large hatchback form.factor. This will cause the used car prices of Nexons and XUV 400s being offered with 30-40 KWHr batteries fall like a sack of potatoes.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

BTW, I voted for Nexon EV. Facelifted Nexon is way ahead of rivals in almost all departments.

What are all those departments? ZS EV has a bigger battery, better real-world range, better DC fast charging, and more interior and boot space. Even the XUV400 has faster DC charging, is more spacious, and is cheaper. Even the base executive variant of ZS EV is well-loaded with all the necessary features.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

For me, it is Hybrid anyday. Voted for the Grand Vitara due to its better looks over the Hyryder.

EV manufacturers are trying to build a narrative that their vehicles will hold their value over a long time. The steep depreciation of EVs in the use car market, as a phenomenon has not yet been understood or fully factored into the pricing of new EVs.

Well argued points but let us turn the argument on its head.

There are two possibilities

1. EV tech (mainly battery not anything else) is new and there is going to be rapid strides
in it that would make the current EV obsolete

2. We have kind of reached the pinnacle of battery tech and all that is left is doting the i's and crossing the t's

Case 1 : That would mean EVs in say 10 years time will become exceptional that it will make the current EV's obsolete. The current EVs themselves are close to their ICE counterparts (Infact much better drive train). The only real concern is infrastructural which would be fixed by that time. So in 10 years time we will have EVs far superior to current ICE/Hybrid vehicle at almost the same cost. How do you think ICE/Hybrid will retain its value ? What will happen to the current crop of Diesels for example with all its DPF shenanigans.

Case 2: EV's will have the same kind of depreciation that ICE vehicles will have in which case we should treat it like just another depreciating assets. So nothing much changes when it comes to resale value as compared to ICE vehicles.

In any case there is not much point for arguing against EVs based on the resale market. Buy an EV if you are environmentally concerned and/or what to enjoy a fantastic drive train. In either of these cases a hybrid is a big let down particularly the big fat ones like the Grand Vitara.

[Redex]

Hybrids are absolutely pointless. The whole idea behind any type of EV is to stop using fossil fuels
Example of real world mpg for the Toyota Prius, 2001 to 2023. Nearly 9,000 owners covering
469 million kilometres.
Lowest 13.8 km/l,
Highest 18.5 km/l

My wife drives a 2009 Mini Cooper D, without even trying to drive economically she gets
Average 23.4 km/l

Even my 20 year old Ford Focus 1.8TDDI ( not even the common rail diesel, and my daily commute includes 85 kms at 95 to 120 kmh.
Average 18.9km/l

[kartikv1]

For me an EV makes sense only as a second car - which I do have a use case but currently we have a Honda Jazz Diesel (2016 make) doing duty - being a diesel - it gives a fuel economy of ~19-20Kmpl.

An EV will make sense for majority of folks only when the prices go below ICE/Hybrid vehicles considerably for them to not ignore it. It has to be motivating enough so people can't ignore the EVs anymore. We need prices to reduce further I believe if companies/government want to push EVs.

Hybrid is a great use case when comparing for longer range and high running. Unfortunately, minimal options exist for strong hybrid today.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

For me, it is Hybrid anyday. Voted for the Grand Vitara due to its better looks over the Hyryder.

You raised three points

1. Charging planning and infra - Planning takes 15 mins as you open plugshare instead of GMAPs to check all available chargers on your route and you select one based on your planned break. Yes, reliability and availability of chargers are a concern but that is improving by the day. Having done multiple long trips with family on different highways and terrains. I don't see highway trips as an challenge even today.

2. Natural calamities - I have seen ICE cars being written off due to their electronics getting fried in floods. There are numerous examples on this forum itself. EVs are no different.

3. Resale - Resale value is always a function of demand. Not everyone in this country has the budget to buy a new car but they have an aspiration to drive a specific type of car. According to me, I will break down EV resale in following points.

1. Demand - As the EV demand goes up, the second hand market demand will go up as well. And then it is doesn't matter which version of the car if the car is in manufacturer warranty, market will pay a price for it.
2. Price - As the thread is on the economics of buying an EV vs Hybrid. Given that a person will be paying on an average Rs 2 lakh lesser for buying an EV plus the lower running cost. That person will not be worried about the resale value of the car. Example - I run the EV for 1,00,000 kms. I would have net saved Rs. 5 lakh minimum over an hybrid car so even if an hybrid has Rs. 5 lakh lesser depreciation than my EV, there will be no impact to me as I have already recouped that amount.
3. Battery demand for recycling and reuse - Battery energy storage systems (BeSS) are going to be the need of the future and electric car batteries are going to have an easy second life. If BeSS is not there, still companies will want to recycle batteries so as to reduce their dependence on imports.

Originally Posted by kartikv1

An EV will make sense for majority of folks only when the prices go below ICE/Hybrid vehicles considerably for them to not ignore it. It has to be motivating enough so people can't ignore the EVs anymore. We need prices to reduce further I believe if companies/government want to push EVs.

Most EVs are already 10% cheaper than hybrids and in XUV400's case they are 20% cheaper. Add to it the 1/3 of the running cost as compared to hybrid. How much more cheaper they need to be?

[TorqueAddict007]

Feel like I'm in a unique position to answer this, as we own a 2023 Innova Hycross ZX(O) and have booked a Tata Punch EV. Neither of these cars are listed in this poll but for us at least, both the cars serve very different purposes. The Hycross is our highway companion and had big shoes to step in as it was replacing our 15 year old Innova. And it does that wonderfully, returning an average FE of 18-19 kmpl. It also is a fantastic car in the city as well, its light steering and amazing visibility make it a breeze to maneuver and I still always get upwards of 17+ kmpl. On the other hand, the Punch was required to replace our WagonR MT, which has turned into a mess of niggles, rattles and very poor FE, and is going to be driven exclusively as a city car, with next to no highway driving.

In my humble opinion, the charging infrastructure in this country still has quite some ways to go, and the DC charging times of vehicles needs to go down, but more than both of that, the range of our vehicles has to go up to, for them to be highway tourers. We could see it as a blessing in some ways that our country does not cover huge amounts of sparsely populated area, so I honestly feel the day EVs can do 500km(real world range not claimed range) on highways, that's when it makes a lot of sense for people to shift over.

I don't really see this as a Hybrid vs EV battle, not until mainstream EVs can get enough range, until then both of them have their own niches. And even after EVs do get good highway range and reduced charging times, I doubt if hybrids will go away entirely, at least not very soon. But EVs are the future. There is no denying that. This is a technology that has been developed only over the past decade and half, and it has already taken the fight to ICE cars very well. Some current battery chemistries like NMC do have their own ecological and humanitarian issues, no doubt, but there's also huge scope for improvement, innovation, research and development with new chemistries and packaging solutions on the horizon. ICE engines are where they are only because they have been extensively developed over one century. And I have no doubt EVs will reach that stage, much, much earlier. Exciting times ahead. But until then, the humble hybrid offers a good stop gap arrangement.

[Kevinrevvz]

I feel like the City Hybrid should've been included in this comparison. Even though its a sedan, it's hybrid powertrain is leaps and bounds ahead of the Toyota-Maruti cousins in terms of performance, refinement and seamlessness.

I personally sold my MG ZS EV in order to buy the City e:HEV and I've written about it in this post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5584057 (Honda City Hybrid Review)

My thoughts on the pros on cons of EVs and Hybrids after owning both are listed in this post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/inter...ml#post5648359 (S&P Global Mobility Study: Except Tesla owners, half of all other EV owners go back to ICE cars)

[abaliga]

If Honda City Hybrid was an option, I would have definitely gone for it, among this list, I have voted for XUV4OO, simply because of the value for money it offers vis a vis Nexon and MG ZS, NMC chemistry is a concern though, however I have only heard of good things from early adopters as far as the vehicle is concerned, but of course the lack of ESP in the initial version and subsequent discounts have made some of them bitter

XUV4OO has not had as many niggles/reliability issues as the Nexon has (this could be purely because of the number of Nexons sold though) and the well balanced cabin space without battery intrusion makes this a perfect city car!

As a long distance tourer, I am definitely not convinced of EVs as a use case yet and there is lot to evolve in this space, until then, pure ICE or Hybrids are a way to go, if one's running is less than 1k a month, I recommend a pure ICE (Turbo Petrol), if its higher than 1k and mostly on highways, then Honda City Hybrid is the default choice.

Note: I have stopped recommending or considering diesel vehicles because of the policy uncertainties, also, DPF issues with BS6 could leave even a Toyota stranded!

[Mindgrinder]

Originally Posted by GTO

The choice of hybrids is way too limited today and that's only because of Toyota's lethargy. It's a technology that was available even 20 years ago, but well, that's Toyota India for you. Today, there is a far greater choice in EVs which is a far newer tech.

With all due respect. I politely disagree. We cannot completely blame Toyota for it, the India government policy taxes hybrid at the highest rate. This is the reason Honda City Hybrid costs upwards of Rs. 20 lakhs in Delhi NCR. As far as I understand electric car lobby and government tax targets would not benefit Hybrids as it reduces cycle to the fuel stations, reducing overall tax collection. The govt. policy on hybrid needs to improve, at least till the time EV infrastructure is good enough, it's not even good enough between NCR cities.