[RMN]

Don't know if this has been shared here before but came across a very interesting article by Driving.ca:


https://driving.ca/column/motor-mout...ectric-vehicle.

Makes we wonder how equipped, trained or knowledgeable firefighters in India

[nagr22]

I am quoting a key portion from the article shared by OP for a quick understanding of what we are talking about -

which quotes Austin Fire Department Division Chief Thayer Smith — it can take as many as 40,000 gallons of water to completely extinguish a roaring Tesla fire. That is — and now you see why I rounded up — equivalent to 40 fire engines.

I see that there is one thread here on Team BHP where some Apartment dwellers were angry at their Associations for not letting them setup chargers in their parking. I hope this throws some light why.

As an engineer who has worked on designing and testing fire protection system for an aircraft, I can tell you that Lithium fires are a scary deal and have even brought couple of cargo airplanes down (search for UPS Flight 6 and Flight 1307). Some of you might also know why we aren't allowed to check in Battery operated electronics and if not, well you know now.

I was president of my Apartment Association until last year and this topic of installing chargers did come up. I vetoed it because I didn't want to risk the lives of innocent people when our country is no where close to being prepared to handle Lithium fires. People were really mad at me and then this news happened.

I am not trying to create a fear among potential EV buyers, I acknowledge and want them to be the future but at the same time we have to be aware that our country (and many developed ones) are not yet capable of handling stuff when EVs fail catastrophically. Until then, I do not want anyone park their EV in the parking lot directly beneath my apartment and if someone does, I wouldnt hesitate to move out of the place to have a peaceful sleep.

[Gaur]

Have been working on Battery Electric Vehicles for the past 6-7 years. Once I clearly understood the complexities, EV fires were the biggest concern for me, more than range anxiety as I knew that would be taken care of with new technologies, but the fire-related challenge is something inherent/basic to BEVs.

With new battery chemistries, this can be minimised but once the batteries catch fire, not much can be done. One of my colleagues used to call batteries "Bhasmasur", which will self-ignite and keep on burning till they finish themselves off.

This challenge of EV fires becomes even more complex in the Indian context where in apartments we have multiple vehicles parked on the podium in the basement and charging overnight. What if one of them catches fire and engulfs all other neighbouring vehicles?

In Europe/US, most houses would have independent parking spaces with sufficient distance from neighbouring vehicles. In such cases the risk is minimized.

I personally feel EV charging points should only be provided in open parkings, away from building entry/exits.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by nagr22

. Until then, I do not want anyone park their EV in the parking lot directly beneath my apartment and if someone does, I wouldnt hesitate to move out of the place to have a peaceful sleep.

Originally Posted by Gaur

In europe/US most houses would have independent parking spaces with sufficient distance from neighboring vehicles, in such case the risk is minimized.

There was a recent (precisely 12-October-2023) fire at a UK Luton Airport due to a diesel car - Link to team bhp thread (Luton airport car park fire causes airport to shut down). The fire led to partial collapse of the parking lot.

Based on the context provided, I have a few questions

1. Should diesel cars be also not allowed to be parked in public/crowded parking places?
2. It took 100 firefighters with specialized equipment and airport closure to get the things under control in UK. Had this happened in India, what would have been the outcome?
3. A multilevel parking lot is very similar to mall parking or apartment basement parking. Had this happened to a diesel car in that parking, what would be the outcome be different?

In the end, the intention of my post is show that when things go wrong they go wrong irrespective of vehicles fuel type. There is no evidence to show that EVs catch fire more often than ICE cars.

[PreludeSH]

I remember in a recent fire, Tesla had asked the fire department not to extinguish the fire and let it burn out. Maybe it was their powerwall battery.
Its kind of chain reaction when lithium ion batteries start to burn.

[IAmGroot]

Originally Posted by nagr22

I was president of my Apartment Association until last year and this topic of installing chargers did come up. I vetoed it because I didn't want to risk the lives of innocent people when our country is no where close to being prepared to handle Lithium fires.

Building fire code as set by fire department would have some guidelines on EV charging setup and fire suppression systems. Just like we have mandated fire alarms and suppression systems for commercial properties, we could have same for residential properties, specifically for EV's.

Is the fire risk more during charging than just a parked EV? If the risk of fire is high during charging, then the onus is on manufactures to build more fail-safe mechanisms to avoid fire in first place. Like in case of B787 lithium battery issue, the solution was to encase the battery in fire-proof box.

I have seen in hotels that the charging point for EV's are in open spaces. Till the time we are not sure on EV battery safety we could agree on not having charging point right below apartments.

I think as EV adoption grows; we will have to come to a solution for EV charging within housing societies. May be each EV charging point will need to have a fire alarm and some suppression systems to go with it, rather than just plug and forget systems.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

There was a recent (precisely 12-October-2023) fire at a UK Luton Airport due to a diesel car - Link to team bhp thread (Luton airport car park fire causes airport to shut down). The fire led to partial collapse of the parking lot.

Based on the context provided, I have a few questions

1. Should diesel cars be also not allowed to be parked in public/crowded parking places?
2. It took 100 firefighters with specialized equipment and airport closure to get the things under control in UK. Had this happened in India, what would have been the outcome?
3. A multilevel parking lot is very similar to mall parking or apartment basement parking. Had this happened to a diesel car in that parking, what would be the outcome be different?

In the end, the intention of my post is show that when things go wrong they go wrong irrespective of vehicles fuel type. There is no evidence to show that EVs catch fire more often than ICE cars.

The article is about the difficulty of putting out an ev fire, that's from a fire fighter perspective, but apparently anything negative about ev and we have to get the oil lobby propaganda whining. Battery fires are like lpg cylinder explosions, in a public charging facility, that risk is higher, we have to mitigate it, not wonder if diesel explosions, if any, need their own threads.

Can you share a link, other than "police claims" news articles, that the fire was caused by a diesel vehicle? How many diesel vehicles have spontaneously combusted while in a parking lot, trucks are parked for days on the road without any trouble in India, a much hotter country. Diesel combustion happens under pressure, the Luton fire is really suspicious and all we get is some ev fanatics saying it's all good because a diesel vehicle is under suspicion. The parking lot didn't have sprinklers, it looks like an insurance scam, with the useful idiots of the green movement providing necessary interference.

There is no evidence that ice cars burn up spontaneously, other than when some jugaad modification has been done to bypass every safety standard. The same applies to EVs, low risk, but not improbable.

[ghodlur]

Shoudn't the electrical fires be doused by CO2 or Dry Chemical powder or foam and not by water? Any class C type fire extinguisher should be sufficient to control the fire ignited by electrical equipment. Same applies to the battery too. Most the switchgear rooms or Server rooms have Halon suppression system and not sprinklers.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

In the end, the intention of my post is show that when things go wrong they go wrong irrespective of vehicles fuel type. There is no evidence to show that EVs catch fire more often than ICE cars.

Infact there is data to suggest that ICE vehicles are 20-80 times more likely to catch fire compared to an EV. I am sure the risk of fire in a Tesla is even lesser.

https://theconversation.com/electric...ectric%20bikes.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Can you share a link, other than "police claims" news articles, that the fire was caused by a diesel vehicle? How many diesel vehicles have spontaneously combusted while in a parking lot

Please go through the teambhp thread linked in the earlier post carefully. There are evidence videos shared by public on social media which were picked up by the news channels pointing to the cause of the fire.

Link for your easy reference

Now coming to the intention of my post. It was to highlight the challenges of managing a fire in a dense parking area/lot irrespective of the vehicles fuel type. The questions regarding diesel car were rhetorical in nature.

Lastly, I didn't call anyone an EV hater in the thread despite that you used the categorization of EV fanatics. Please understand that having a different opinion than the thread opener doesn't make me a fanatic or the thread opener a hater. It is a forum for healthy discussion and no discussion is complete without having perspectives from both sides.

[attinder]

There are videos on YouTube with lithium exploding and burning when put in water. Is it even a good idea to put out a lithium fire with water ?

[RMN]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Lastly, I didn't call anyone an EV hater in the thread despite that you used the categorization of EV fanatics. Please understand that having a different opinion than the thread opener doesn't make me a fanatic or the thread opener a hater. It is a forum for healthy discussion and no discussion is complete without having perspectives from both sides.

Tbh, its that comparison to the diesel engine fire that gives such an impression cause the discussion on this thread and the article has mostly been on the difficulties on putting out EV fire and if our country has the training and preparation for it.

To an extent, with years of experience the Indian authorities are familiar with putting out gasoline-based fire and have an expectation of the sort of damage it can do. But I wonder if they have the training when it comes to battery/EV based fire? The article mentions about digging a pit and submerging the vehicle and even specialized tools - has our fire department even thought or planned about it?

[lina]

Originally Posted by nagr22

I am not trying to create a fear among potential EV buyers, I acknowledge and want them to be the future but at the same time we have to be aware that our country (and many developed ones) are not yet capable of handling stuff when EVs fail catastrophically. Until then, I do not want anyone park their EV in the parking lot directly beneath my apartment and if someone does, I wouldnt hesitate to move out of the place to have a peaceful sleep.

I understand your fear. Though I dont understand why the fear is restricted to only EVs. People in India have no issues allowing gas pipes, gas cylinders just 2 rooms away, huge diesel storage tanks, transformers and what not. Most people even sleep with a badly made Chinese phone in their pockets. Most people also have completely grilled up balconies, old wiring that is never inspected and even conduct full on Homas inside badly ventilated houses.

Fires are a reality that we have to be prepared for. Removing EVs from the equation barely improves your probability wrt being affected by fires.

[rsidd]

It should be noted that till recently Tesla cars used NMC batteries which are much more flammable. Newer Tesla cars, and all Tata and most other Indian EVs, use LFP which are much safer (much higher thermal runaway temperature, more chemically stable), though they have a lower energy density. I think the previous cases of e-scooters catching fire involved NMC batteries.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by attinder

There are videos on YouTube with lithium exploding and burning when put in water. Is it even a good idea to put out a lithium fire with water ?

To it is not a good idea to put out any electrical fire with water. EVs are no different. That is why gases like CO2, Halon are used. Today most building complexes have to have working CO2 fire extinguisher for fire suppression.

Originally Posted by RMN

To an extent, with years of experience the Indian authorities are familiar with putting out gasoline-based fire and have an expectation of the sort of damage it can do. But I wonder if they have the training when it comes to battery/EV based fire? The article mentions about digging a pit and submerging the vehicle and even specialized tools - has our fire department even thought or planned about it?

Yes, you asked about the competence of the EV firefighting in India but the next two BHPians after your opening post alluded to the EV fire risk in apartment complexes. My intention was to make them aware of the inherent risks in apartment complexes irrespective of vehicle fuel type by giving an parking lot fire example.

Originally Posted by lina

I understand your fear. Though I dont understand why the fear is restricted to only EVs. People in India have no issues allowing gas pipes, gas cylinders just 2 rooms away, huge diesel storage tanks, transformers and what not. Most people even sleep with a badly made Chinese phone in their pockets. Most people also have completely grilled up balconies, old wiring that is never inspected and even conduct full on Homas inside badly ventilated houses.

Fires are a reality that we have to be prepared for. Removing EVs from the equation barely improves your probability wrt being affected by fires.

Precisely what I have been trying to say. People are talking about EV fire risks in apartment complex without understanding the fact that the risk already exists and EV is just another variable.