[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

That's easier to understand if you view it as a religion, the complete package with salvation being you personally saving the planet. An EV has parts that requires attention, and just like an ICE vehicle, they require maintenance and repair, steering systems, air suspension, AC, brakes are few items that come to mind.

Other than difference in the drive train (which for an EV is much much simpler) can you point out to me what exactly is there in an Nexon EV that is not there in a Nexon Petrol that it requires "very high maintance". For electric drive trains you might need electricians instead of mechanics but other than that what is inherently so complicated here. Please enlighten these poor ignorant fanatics.

A simple rule is not to trust early adopters, they've already displayed susceptibility to marketing drivel, anything that goes wrong is simply brushed aside as a sacrifice for the cause. The zero maintenance compared to an ICE is just one of those dogmas.

Another simple rule is not to trust automobile enthusiasts. You are misunderstanding/misrepresenting the arguments. No one said zero maintenance. What one is disputing is this constant source of silly studies that seems to say random things like "EV is more harmful to environment" or Hydrogen ICE is the future (something that is ruled out due to second law of thermodynamics). It wont be surprising if the current "new study" is also from the same crowd.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Other than difference in the drive train (which for an EV is much much simpler) can you point out to me what exactly is there in an Nexon EV that is not there in a Nexon Petrol that it requires "very high maintance". For electric drive trains you might need electricians instead of mechanics but other than that what is inherently so complicated here. Please enlighten these poor ignorant fanatics.

Another simple rule is not to trust automobile enthusiasts. You are misunderstanding/misrepresenting the arguments. No one said zero maintenance. What one is disputing is this constant source of silly studies that seems to say random things like "EV is more harmful to environment" or Hydrogen ICE is the future (something that is ruled out due to second law of thermodynamics). It wont be surprising if the current "new study" is also from the same crowd.

Thanks for quoting my post, I'm sure I said "requires maintenance" not "very high maintenance", I don't have to explain what I didn't say. The Nexon might be the fantasy of EV fans, the rest of us haven't spent much time building a dream Nexon, the way one would a BMW or Tesla. The onus of training technicians is on the manufacturers, they've done squat so far, third party maintenance is critical if they are serious about scale. What's complicated is mentioned in the article that is in the start of this thread, the high voltage architecture requires expertise, and these guys want the government to fund the training for their customer's maintenance needs.

EVs are harmful to the environment, the pollution where the mining takes place is no different from a coal mine or oil refinery. The advantage for the developed countries with this grift is that when they get cleaner air and quiet roads, the waste can be shipped to the global south. Let me add my favorite energy meme here.

[helios9406]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

To see it from Indian industry perspective. I have the following points

You have touched almost all relevant points.

Every new technology has its own teething troubles.

The EVs are going to evolve into driverless cars easier than ice cars. Companies are jumping into EV domain primarily for data. Nexon ev for example was introduced as a city car, but tata engineers found out that many users are using it for long runs and hence the max version.

Also insurance of EVs will come down drastically once adas and electronics drive assistance features which are AI assisted comes into market and smart collision avoidance systems should bring down the premium.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Well I also don't understand why the Anti EV brigade as obsessed with claiming that EV's are not good.

I guess the EV brigade wants to force everyone to buy EVs not the other way round.

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

But even now the positives outweigh the negatives.

Let's not look at the negatives with suspicion.

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

That too data from reliable sources.

That's what Thatcham Research of UK said about EVs - No data to decide whether to repair EVs or write it off after an accident. This lack of data is forcing insurers to scrap EVs after mild accidents. Thatcham Research cited "concerning lack of affordable or available repair solutions and post-accident diagnostics" in a report entitled "Impact of BEV Adoption on the Repair and Insurance Sectors."

Source 1: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econo.../101506593.cms

Source 2: https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...am-2023-07-04/

Report: https://www.thatcham.org/wp-content/...arch-FINAL.pdf

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

I guess the EV brigade wants to force everyone to buy EVs not the other way round.

Maybe true when you do not include the Fossil fuel industry into the ICE brigade. Otherwise billions are spent to buy politicians, water down climate policies, posting headline news against EVs, bringing in stupid alternate fuels like Hydrogen & E-fuels as climate neutral fuels.

Without the ICE brigade constant FUD, EV penetration would have been far higher.

There are more than 600 delegates from oil lobby attending the COP 27( and COP 28) meetings just to make sure these forums don't take hard decisions.

UAE conducting COP28 is like a fox guarding a chicken coop.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Without the ICE brigade constant FUD, EV penetration would have been far higher.

UAE conducting COP28 is like a fox guarding a chicken coop.

It seems the EV brigade that enjoyed ICEVs for so many years without batting an eyelid has suddenly got divine revelation about EVs.

The West advocating EVs is like a Carnivore preaching about Veganism.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

It seems the EV brigade that enjoyed ICEVs for so many years without batting an eyelid has suddenly got divine revelation about EVs.

The West advocating EVs is like a Carnivore preaching about Veganism.

If you everything about EV is preaching and it will bring no good to the world, what do you think is the right approach for combating pollution and climate change? Nobody is saying that one approach is best and the final approach. It will be more constructive discussion if you can put your point of view on this rather than calling names to people driving EVs

[EV Fan]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

It seems the EV brigade that enjoyed ICEVs for so many years without batting an eyelid has suddenly got divine revelation about EVs.

Sudden Divine Revelation - Maybe...
But i think - After getting nothing other than ICE's for almost a century, we finally got something different and just realized that EV's better suit our usage than an ICE. Better to have a few options rather than a monopolistic ICE economy.

Most of these advocates here are EV users, who have tried and realized how well the EV's suit our needs. It's almost like - why didn't we get this before....

Also these discussions would have happened long back if:
- 25 years ago, ICE manufacturers like General Motors would not have smothered EV1
- 13 years ago, Nissan Leaf was released globally
It's happening now since EV's became globally available . That too for what about - 3 or 4 years now? (they are not even mainstream yet)

Originally Posted by CarNerd

The West advocating EVs is like a Carnivore preaching about Veganism.

The West also did advocate ICE's, steam engines etc etc. Did not think about this quote then...
Why this sudden divine revelation now when West is so called preaching EV's?

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

If you everything about EV is preaching and it will bring no good to the world, what do you think is the right approach for combating pollution and climate change? Nobody is saying that one approach is best and the final approach. It will be more constructive discussion if you can put your point of view on this rather than calling names to people driving EVs.

The right approach starts from those people or countries who have contributed most to pollution and climate change. They should acknowledge their role in the situation we are in without dictating others who have no role or limited role in global pollution. They should compensate poor countries facing wrath of climate caused by the rich.

According to a study, wealthy countries owe $192 Trillion to poorer nations by 2050 as climate change compensation and India is entitled to $57 Trillion. Does the EV brigade care about all this? No! Link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ind...dy-605136.html

Nobody is calling names or telling EVs are no good but you should understand it's the EV brigade that is saying EVs are the best and the only solution. They are the ones setting deadlines around the world to ban ICEVs. Is this the right approach?

Originally Posted by EV Fan

After getting nothing other than ICE's for almost a century, we finally got something different and just realized that EV's better suit our usage than an ICE. Better to have a few options rather than a monopolistic ICE economy.

That's exactly what I want - Options. Let people have a choice, let them know the truth, let them decide for themselves without the fear of deadlines and penalties.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

Most of these advocates here are EV users, who have tried and realized how well the EV's suit our needs. It's almost like - why didn't we get this before.

When did I say that people shouldn't buy EVs? I said people shouldn't be forced to buy EVs.

Originally Posted by EV Fan

The West also did advocate ICE's, steam engines etc etc. Did not think about this quote then. Why this sudden divine revelation now when West is so called preaching EV's?

Did the west force anyone to buy steam engines, ICEVs, etc and try to ban bullock carts, horse drawn carriages, cycle rickshaws, etc?

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Nobody is calling names or telling EVs are no good but you should understand it's the EV brigade that is saying EVs are the best and the only solution. They are the ones setting deadlines around the world to ban ICEVs. Is this the right approach?

Nobody is shoving EVs down somebody's throat and I don't know who is the EV brigade. Rest I don't want to go further off topic here. The topic is this thread is "Repair cost of EVs". Let's add data points in that perspective.

Rest there are alot of other threads in the forum related to "are EV the right approach for our future?" We shall continue our discussion on those threads.

P.S - I don't know any country which is going to ban ICE cars except Nordic countries. Nordics countries can do it as 70-80% of their power is getting generated from renewables

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

P.S - I don't know any country which is going to ban ICE cars except Nordic countries. Nordics countries can do it as 70-80% of their power is getting generated from renewables

I don’t think that is correct. Nobody is currently banning ICE cars, most if not all countries are banning the sale of ICE cars. Usu sally from 2039-2035 onwards.

In addition it is becoming increasingly more difficult to drive into many European town due to bans on diesels and some older petrol cars.

E.g. I can’t take any of my classic cars into Brussels or Antwerp.

Jeroen

[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

EVs are harmful to the environment, the pollution where the mining takes place is no different from a coal mine or oil refinery. The advantage for the developed countries with this grift is that when they get cleaner air and quiet roads, the waste can be shipped to the global south. Let me add my favorite energy meme here.

Thanks for sharing the meme and showing how much you know about EV. Let me educate you about the meme, so that you can share it better.
the bottom image shows children in Africa, where Lithium isn't sourced, it should say COBALT, which is sourced in DRC. DRC being the chaotic country which it has been since Belgium occupation/liberation/revolution/counter-revolution is like that itself. It reminds me of blood diamond movie, where warlords did whatever they want to get the money for their arms.

Now coming to actual matter, Cobalt is used in NMC battery type, which isn't the major one used in India, in India, it's LFP, which has no trace of cobalt.

You might also come across one more meme about a gigantic cavity in earth saying LITHIUM mining, before you post that anywhere, know that it is not LITHIUM but COPPER mine from Australia.

BTW, did you know Cobalt is used in Oil refining? and those white men drilling also take cobalt from the children and use it. Or were you selective in sharing the information?

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

Thanks for sharing the meme and showing how much you know about EV. Let me educate you about the meme, so that you can share it better.
the bottom image shows children in Africa, where Lithium isn't sourced, it should say COBALT, which is sourced in DRC. DRC being the chaotic country which it has been since Belgium occupation/liberation/revolution/counter-revolution is like that itself. It reminds me of blood diamond movie, where warlords did whatever they want to get the money for their arms.

Now coming to actual matter, Cobalt is used in NMC battery type, which isn't the major one used in India, in India, it's LFP, which has no trace of cobalt.

You might also come across one more meme about a gigantic cavity in earth saying LITHIUM mining, before you post that anywhere, know that it is not LITHIUM but COPPER mine from Australia.

BTW, did you know Cobalt is used in Oil refining? and those white men drilling also take cobalt from the children and use it. Or were you selective in sharing the information?

The meme conveys a message, the details are a little off, cobalt is still very much a part of the EV battery material mix. LFP is right now limited to Tesla, other manufacturers have committed to it, that's like saying installed solar capacity. LFP is promoted as a geopolitical strategy which concentrates the material mix required to north America, how does India benefit from that setup?

That large copper mine exists to meet heightened demand from the renewable energy sector, so even if it's not lithium mining, the landscape isn't pretty.

The men drilling for oil are paid good, the children are slaves, the meme is about the value of labour, you missed it entirely and went directly to race. The point is also about the financial racketeering that enables this, but that's not the topic of this thread.

What's your expertise about EVs? Do you have any long term experience with them, are they cheaper and easier to repair? Are service technicians available for RSA? The thread is about that, share your inputs.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Do you have any long term experience with them, are they cheaper and easier to repair? Are service technicians available for RSA? The thread is about that, share your inputs.

I don't think independent garages not being equipped to repair EVs is a major issue. In my 20+ years of car ownership, I never had the need to go anywhere else but an authorized dealer. I'm pretty sure there are lots of folks out there like me.

Now if there are customers who prefer independent garages, then they just have to add "lack of service options" to their list of EV negatives - that's all.
And then assign a weightage to the list of positives/negatives and then decide.

Regarding cost of accident repair or component replacement, it is something for insurance/warranty companies to lose sleep over. They will adjust the cost of insurance/warranty over time. But since Nexon EV or XUV400 owner is already paying 30% to 50% premium over diesel/petrol model, it is very likely that he will be prepared to pay a premium for servicing/warranty/insurance too.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

I don't think independent garages not being equipped to repair EVs is a major issue. In my 20+ years of car ownership, I never had the need to go anywhere else but an authorized dealer. I'm pretty sure there are lots of folks out there like me.

Now if there are customers who prefer independent garages, then they just have to add "lack of service options" to their list of EV negatives - that's all.
And then assign a weightage to the list of positives/negatives and then decide.

Regarding cost of accident repair or component replacement, it is something for insurance/warranty companies to lose sleep over. They will adjust the cost of insurance/warranty over time. But since Nexon EV or XUV400 owner is already paying 30% to 50% premium over diesel/petrol model, it is very likely that he will be prepared to pay a premium for servicing/warranty/insurance too.

My question was directed at DarthVeda as the post seemed to indicate some sort of expertise regarding EVs. Your experience with the ASS for ICE has nothing to do with EVs, this is like comparing film with digital storage. The ASS seems to lack qualified personnel according to the OP, so downtime for repairs is unpredictable and thats not the experience with ICE today unless you got a lemon. Less moving parts is a silly argument, ICE cars require maintenance, with third party support, lower cost options exist, the parts that fail and are expensive to fix, exist in both types of vehicles, air suspension or ACs will require some sort of dismantling of body and trim.

My question was purely about cost and ease of repair, both of which are non existent in EVs, I didn't mention anything about insurance or warranty, they'll evolve with the industry.

I am not sure why this obsession with the XUV400/Nexon EV, the only positive is that they look better than the ash you get if you simply burned your money. These vehicles are good for those who have limited running or a fixed route, they aren't even ground up EVs, which is the only type i am interested in. Simply put, I'll take a model Y over an X3.

There is nothing on this thread about how EVs cost less or take less time to repair, just the usual whining about the oil lobby, they'll oppose the perfectly usable strong hybrids, because, feelings. We can't adopt the Norway model as we don't export oil to pay for this grift, the EV supporters have nothing to offer beyond the usual planet saving faith. Tesla is currently the industry standard, they are good at a lot of things, but repairability is not their strong suite, there are clearly limitations, that has nothing to do with ICE manufacturers or the oil lobby, none of which influenced their decisions regarding repairs or parts availability.