[_Piyush_]

Originally Posted by RaghavEvoX

For a country like India where we pay 3X of the actual fuel cost, any day an EV will be cheaper to run than ICE cars.

I agree with you seeing the current taxes on Fuel. However, look at it from another perspective. post 2030, the sale of petrol and diesel cars would be banned, which means that the Government would not be generating tax revenue, which can cause a financial deficit. The only answer I see is that they would put some tax on charging your electric vehicles.

Please Note that the above is just my opinion.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by _Piyush_

I agree with you seeing the current taxes on Fuel. However, look at it from another perspective. post 2030, the sale of petrol and diesel cars would be banned, which means that the Government would not be generating tax revenue, which can cause a financial deficit. The only answer I see is that they would put some tax on charging your electric vehicles.

Please Note that the above is just my opinion.

At today's crude oil prices 1litre costs 44₹(85$/barrel), then let us suppose shipping, refining and transporting to fuel pumps will cost another 10₹/litre.

So, 54₹/litre has just left India, govts will be getting 47₹/litre(petrol costs 101₹/litre in Karnataka). Tax revenues are not 3x.

Imagine an EV user saving 54₹/litre from leaving Indian economy, this money keeps circulating inside Indian economy, as this money is used to buy real estate, MFs or buying anything and the govt takes a large share of your profits from savings or GST from what you buy.

My conclusion is thinking govt loses revenue is not correct, the money in Indian economy generates more revenue to govts than the ~1$billion leaving Indian economy every day to buy oil.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by guptad42

The purpose is simple.
1. If it produces doubt in even 20-30% of their readers to slow down EV adoption, it is a cheap way to gain a few more years of relevance by the folks who paid for this study.
2. Provide the anti-EV crowd a talking point because they have very few real ones to rely on.

A request to admins - such hit jobs should be covered at team-bhp with the right context to expose the false propaganda. Covering it as-is in the News section gives it credibility that it does not deserve, certainly not at team-bhp.

Actually it might be good idea to have one page dedicated to busting these myths.

- Battery mining more harmful than Oil mining.

- Brake pollution (do not ask me who really got this idea) is more in EV because of higher torque. (The amount of spin on this will make even Bishan Singh Bedi proud)

- Electricity is more costly than Oil. Okey ?

- Hydrogen is the answer or worse

- Hydrogen combustion engine will kill all BEVs (Monsieur Carnot cycle is about bicycle not cars)

- Toyota has just developed a Solid state battery that can power the next chandrayan
mission and can be home charged in 10 min (Conservation of energy be damned)

- China

- Using EVs require you to sacrifice your first born son to Elon Musk

[Reinhard]

Caution - Stereotyping follows.

So an American study says something that they like to make a lot, is better than something else that others are making and using elsewhere. Where's the news or the surprise in this?
In fact - I'll safely assume that truth is exactly the opposite of the finding and have even more respect for EVs now!

Iraq's weapons of mass destruction cry in a corner meanwhile.

[mobike008]

Why do you have to believe some vague study when you have a "Live" example on the forum who has been sharing his EV experiences on the forum for a while now.

Firstly, the original post in its first category, compares cheaper EV's which cost less and also give a lot less range. Comparing it with a cheaper ICE car that gives 35 miles to a gallon is not the right way to compare or look at this statistics.

I belong to the second category of example quoted in the original post- I have an expensive gas car (BMW X3M40i) and also have an equally expensive EV car (Tesla M3P).

So it's fair and square- Head-to-Head.

I completed 8000 miles (Or, 13,000 kms) with my Tesla Model 3 Performance and have shared some comparison statistics that will open your eyes with respect to how much one can save in gas and other maintenance costs when driving an EV.

Here is the post :

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post5598628

To summarize :

1. If I drive my BMW for 13,000 kms, I would have spent $1800 in gas costs (Now the gas is even more expensive at $5.30/gallon).

2. If I drive the Tesla for 13,000 kms, I spent a meagre $300 in comparison.

That's a whopping ~ 85% savings in gas.

For me personally, EV is the way forward as it's fast, amazing to drive, zero to negligible maintenance and I can drive this to the ground (People have driven > 250,000 miles/ 4 Lakh Kms) and still using them and enjoying it.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by mobike008

Why do you have to believe some vague study when you have a "Live" example on the forum who has been sharing his EV experiences on the forum for a while now.
.

To add on to this, my home solar is 7+years old and my Model 3 is 5+ years old. I always charge at home at super off peak times, and never at commercial supercharger.

Home solar returned all of its investment in 4 years, and now I drive the Tesla some 8k miles a year, and that's free as well. I have no fuel or maintenance costs. 100% of my desi friends have Tesla and home solar. It's amazing how they churn out hit pieces.

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by vamsi.kona

I was trying to do some rough calculations with some google search thrown in.

Here are they.
The study probably considers the grid charges of US. However, if someone were able to use roof top solar, which apart from the CBD areas and the downtown areas, many US homes in smaller cities or suburbs of big cities can easily afford.

The average cost of a 5kW roof top solar costs about $15 - $25k it seems as per google search so I considered the mid price of $20k

A 5kW can produce, on average, somewhere around 6000kWh per year in LA it seems. (Again a google search). If we consider only 75% performance it will be 4500 kWh

If we consider a Model 3, the energy used per km, as per google again, is said to be 0.25kWh/km. So 4500kWh would give around 18,000 kms.

A roof top solar installation should typically have a life of around 20-25 years. Even if we consider degradation in performance and take only 75% performance as average it will give us 4500kWh per year which translates to 1,12,500 kWh over its life time. So the cost per kWh would be around $0.177 or $0.18 cents. So the effective cost is likely to be $0.18 per 4 kms, given Model 3 consumes around 0.25kWh per Km or $7.2 per 100 miles.

I am not a technical guy and was only interested in the economics part of the story. So if there are any mistakes in my assumptions please do correct them. And as pointed out most of the costs and figures were taken from google search and dialled down a bit.

I messed up in my calculations, confusing Miles and KM's. Here are fresh and accurate calculations.

I have taken Model 3 RWD which has 270 miles range but took 250. Similarly took the latest Leaf model with 149 miles range and considered 140 miles for calculation.

With regards electricity rates, I have taken the rates in Hawaii which are the highest in USA at around $0.40 cents per kWh. The average for USA as a whole is around $0.16 per kWh. If we consider rates in California @ $0.30, which are also in the top 5 states with high electricity costs then the cost per 100 miles drop to $8.57 for Nissan Leaf and $7.20 for Model 3. As such I am not sure how they arrived at $12.55 cost for home charging.

The attached pic of table somehow isn't displaying properly. Hence attached the excel sheet. The pic was looking properly in preview however.

[FourWheelDrift]

The article at the link below was written by the Washington Post to examine the claim made by the Anderson Economic Group.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...e-vs-gasoline/

Is it cheaper to refuel your EV battery or gas tank? We did the math in all 50 states.

Advice by Michael J. Coren, Climate Advice Columnist
Graphics by Naema Ahmed
Aug. 8 at 6:30 a.m.

Gasoline cars are cheaper to refuel than electric vehicles.

I’ve heard this claim pop up everywhere from Massachusetts to Fox News over the past two years. My neighbor even refuses to plug in his hybrid Toyota RAV4 Prime over what he calls ruinous electricity rates.

What gives?

The basic argument is that electricity prices are so high it has erased the advantage of recharging over refilling. This cuts to the heart of why many people buy EVs, according to the Pew Research Center: 70 percent of potential EV buyers report “saving money on gas” as among their top reasons.

So how much does it really cost to refuel an EV?

The answer is less straightforward than it seems. Just calculating the cost of gasoline vs. electricity is misleading. Prices vary by charger (and state). Everyone charges differently. Road taxes, rebates and battery efficiency all affect the final calculation.

Please read this article in its entirety at the link above.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by FourWheelDrift

So how much does it really cost to refuel an EV?

The answer is less straightforward than it seems. Just calculating the cost of gasoline vs. electricity is misleading. Prices vary by charger (and state). Everyone charges differently. Road taxes, rebates and battery efficiency all affect the final calculation.

As these studies are US based, I feel like chiming in. These electricity rates are when you buy electricity from the grid. Vast majority of Americans who can afford EVs have gone solar, and use their electricity credits. They produce at a high rate during day time, and charge at super off peak rates - after mid night on weekends. Or Off peak rates - after mid night.

I hardly ever go to a super charger. Why would I go further than 300mi all the time? When all the studies talk about charging at the rates charged by the grid, the study becomes very lop sided. It is true that electricity rates are climbing, and utility companies are less willing to keep paying existing rates.

This is all the more reason for people to install batteries to store the electricity they produce. Like, Tesla Powerwall.

[volkman10]

Study finds up to half of all electric-car owners considering a switch back to petrol power.

Approximately half of the people who already own an electric car are considering a switch back to petrol or diesel power for their next vehicle – unless they own a Tesla.

three-quarters of electric vehicle owners say that would buy another battery-powered car – but that number falls to about half once Tesla owners are removed from the statistics.

On average, the study found households with an electric vehicle are only 52.1 per cent likely to buy another for their next purchase – whether that's as a second car or as a replacement – citing pricing, charging infrastructure, and driving range as their reasons against another zero-emissions car.

However, with Tesla owners included, that figure increases to 72.6 per cent – an increase of almost 25 per cent over the past three years.


Link

[Bluengel180]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Study finds up to half of all electric-car owners considering a switch back to petrol power.
Link

This is highly misleading. If you read the study it about "Loyalty to EVs in the Luxury Space" And is mainly focused the luxury marques. This segment is all about driving pleasure and snob value and Tesla is the only one that has done it right.

It does mention that mainstream EV's still have a high loyalty rate. And its never going to be 100% as it is still in its early stages. expect the number to go up significantly as the infrastructure matures.