[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

The ruthlessness you talk about is not specific to the Chinese. When Amazon entered India, there were plenty of home grown e-com players in India. Now, everyone of them is dead in the $100b market. The only remaining 'Indian' player is Flipkart, which is owned by Walmart.


BYD operates in an industry worth < $1b in India, miniscule local manufacturing, where there is no 'national security' interest involved. What India has though is a big potential market.

This is the same situation Chinese used to their advantage to build local technology and manufacturing across industries.

In India, by contrast, we are terrified of our shadows, and will end up being bit players with screw driver technology.

What we need is a strong, transparent monopoly regulator to check Amazon and BYD. What we end up with this fear mongering is lost opportunities, bad products and an unaccountable government.

I am not concerned about individual Chinese (or American) companies as such. As I mentioned in my post I believe China needs a far more strategic long term and holistic approach. The issue isn’t BYD. The issue is becoming way too dependent on China.

Regulators in democracies can only check and control companies according to the policies and laws set by the government and passed by parliament. Poor government with poor legislation will mean poor regulation. But again, this is not about individual companies or any short term gains or risks.

China, my opinion, is a massive risk factor long term for any country. The solution is not a regulator. It’s not the ruthlessness of an individual company. It is the ruthlessness of China and it’s political system and ambition that ought to worry us.

Jeroen

[OrangeCar]

Chinese carmaker BYD faces Indian tax investigation: Sources
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com.../102336468.cms

Simply wow. India has a myriad number of tools to tighten anybody it wants to.

My view is, if you thoroughly investigate any company, they all are likely to have broken some laws, or some lapses will be discovered. Question is if that is intentional. But this move seems vindictive, even if BYD is guilty.

At approx $2500 per capita GDP, we may or may not know to build many large companies, but we sure know how to kill some.

Absolutely scary that the government will just attack any company that it doesn’t like. And it will be a long and expensive road for any company to fight that legally.

[chennai-indian]

Originally Posted by OrangeCar

Chinese carmaker BYD faces Indian tax investigation: Sources
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com.../102336468.cms

Simply wow. India has a myriad number of tools to tighten anybody it wants to.

Well, Chinese companies are facing exactly what Indian companies faced in China.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

China, my opinion, is a massive risk factor long term for any country. The solution is not a regulator. It’s not the ruthlessness of an individual company. It is the ruthlessness of China and it’s political system and ambition that ought to worry us.

Jeroen

I agree. China, as a state, has some 'unconventional' trading practices, specially if you lend from them, or let them inside your cyber or communication systems.

BYD investing in India is no such thing. Just to re-iterate the point, the only Chinese player in India is MG, with < 2% market share, which gives very little room for a Chinese cartel.

Why are Indians spooked by a Chinese car company investing $1b in the country where you will get all the free market disclosures/audits etc. In contrast, we seem to be fine with the $120b worth yearly we simply buy from China, electronics and telcom being the largest component.

The problem is, there is no debate on the issue. People will hide behind the 'Chinese embed spyware', 'national security', 'government knows best' in hushed tones. Those are decent arguments, but have little bearing on this specific case. The nuance is lost on Indians.

Who looses? The Indian industry, job seekers and consumers. BYD? It is allowed business in the USA, which has a much more difficult relationship with China, but is smart enough to keep its non-strategic commerce separate from its geopolitics. BYD sells and manufactures there, thank you very much.

[Small Bot]

I'm not sure if we could call this vindictive by the government. Someone else pointed out that the amount of trade we do with China annually is far greater than this single deal. It's clear that our economic progress to an extent is connected to China as well.

I'm also not sure if tax evasion by other companies might absolve BYD of the crime of evading taxes themselves (if they are proven to have done so). Try telling a traffic policeman: "But sir, that car also jumped the signal, why did you catch only me?"

That said, I don't think the real rationale behind the earlier deal rejection and now the probe will ever be made clear. All that news about security concerns seems to be misdirection by the government. This is unfortunately one of those decisions by the lawmakers which we'll never get to know the full details about.

BYD doesn't seem to have protested too loudly against the government actions though. It's only forum members here who seem quite vocal about it.

[fhdowntheline]

It is rather interesting that we are spooked by a country because of its questionable political character and yet all the while we are utterly smitten by and perhaps beholden to the tech powers of the Western world which have the ability to even manipulate information at will, not to mention the vast reserves of intellectual property. I will rest my case here because if you start digging deep, you realize the geopolitical quagmire that we find ourselves in.

[Nanolover]

Now it seems they are being investigated for tax evasion also. Highly probable upon reading through the article.

https://www.autocarpro.in/news/byd-f...-report-116180

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

It is allowed business in the USA, which has a much more difficult relationship with China, but is smart enough to keep its non-strategic commerce separate from its geopolitics. BYD sells and manufactures there, thank you very much.

The USA is probably one of the few countries under various democratic and republican presidents that for almost a decade has been reducing through all kinds of official and unofficial procedures and legislation it’s trade with China. For a decade China was, by a large margin, their most important trade partner. That has been reduced. Mexico is now the number one trade partner of the USA and the dependency in every industry/market in the USA on Chinese goods is actively being driven down.

I am very surprised to see al, these comments about how this would benefit India and consumers. This is exactly what China would like the public to think. Have you tried to set up a business in China? I have and I can tell you it is absolutely not a level playing field. No matter to which country you compare.

BYD is just one small piece in the very long term strategy of world economic domination! I don’t see China going to war over anything or anybody with the possible exception of Taiwan, which is a very tricky situation.

As I mentioned before. China is out there conquering the world, absolutely dominating it. Not by war and armies, but through economic and financial means.

It is actually pretty well documented in both Chinese and foreign papers and books. listen to Xi and what garbage he spits on the annual party convention. Are you going to feel comfortable with a guy like that, representing a total alien society concept to ours?

Jeroen

[Turbosailor]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not concerned about individual Chinese (or American) companies as such. As I mentioned in my post I believe China needs a far more strategic long term and holistic approach. The issue isn’t BYD. The issue is becoming way too dependent on China.

Totally agreed. We are very much depended on China in many strategic sectors like power, telecommunication, shipping, automobiles and even in pharmaceutical sector. CCP and its proxy are running the show. Its better to decouple for Chinese sooner the better for our country. And I have seen people crying when Chinese products / companies are getting required treatments from GOI, they should realize there are many better alternative products available in market. And our Govt should consider inviting Vietnamizes ( Vin Fast ) and Taiwanese ( Foxcon ) for putting up there BEV plant in India.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Turbosailor

And our Govt should consider inviting Vietnamizes ( Vin Fast ) and Taiwanese ( Foxcon ) for putting up there BEV plant in India.

Foxconn being aggressively wooed already. Rumours are rife of a massive investment very soon to create their entire ecosystem,

https://www.motorbeam.com/foxconn-ev...-car-in-india/

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by chennai-indian

Well, Chinese companies are facing exactly what Indian companies faced in China.

It's also what every other company including Tesla, Uber etc faced in China. At first they rolled out the red carpet and once they had invested and set up factories etc, they stole as much proprietary tech they could, state backed competitors popped up overnight and they started a whole ton of legal issues as they were slowly squeezed by the Chinese govt.

But I'm not sure if going tit-for-tat with China is a good move. Foreign companies have been looking to India as an alternative to China's bad business practices. If we get a reputation for doing the exact same things as China, it could make other countries wary to invest here. Hopefully whoever is behind this knows what they are doing and has a larger plan in mind than just vote politics or chest thumping.

[chennai-indian]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

It's also what every other company including Tesla, Uber etc faced in China. At first they rolled out the red carpet and once they had invested and set up factories etc, they stole as much proprietary tech they could, state backed competitors popped up overnight and they started a whole ton of legal issues as they were slowly squeezed by the Chinese govt.

. Hopefully whoever is behind this knows what they are doing and has a larger plan in mind than just vote politics or chest thumping.

I think your comparison is wrong. India is doing this only for the Chinese and not for investments from any other country. In fact, India is very welcoming to investments from other countries.

This has NOTHING to do with "vote bank" politics or "chest thumping" as you put it. Please read through my other posts on why India is doing it.

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by chennai-indian

I think your comparison is wrong. India is doing this only for the Chinese and not for investments from any other country. In fact, India is very welcoming to investments from other countries.

This has NOTHING to do with "vote bank" politics or "chest thumping" as you put it. Please read through my other posts on why India is doing it.

Doesn’t matter. The only thing foreign investors will see is that rules can be bent, broken and they can be harassed or squeezed. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that if it can be done to Chinese companies, it can also be done to your companies if you displease the people in power for any reason.

[chennai-indian]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

Doesn’t matter. The only thing foreign investors will see is that rules can be bent, broken and they can be harassed or squeezed. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that if it can be done to Chinese companies, it can also be done to your companies if you displease the people in power for any reason.

Who are these "foreign" investors that you mention? Americans? They are doing the same thing to the Chinese. Europeans? Same. So who are you talking about?

[shankar.balan]

Reading this ET article I can empathise with the GOI stance.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/def.../103205572.cms